SPC vs SSjin 2 Kid Gohan Argument

[Fionordequester]

Gohan pretty much knew how strong Cell was and used Super Saiyan to fight Dabura, whom was said to be as strong as Cell.

Isn't that still being debated?

[Saiga]

I'm gonna go against the grain here, and say that, IMO, Cell was actually stronger than Gohan.

1. Cell, knowing full well how powerful Gohan was, actually came back expecting to beat him.
2. Cell claimed to have received a power up "just like Son Gohan's." If we take this literally, and believe that his zenkai was a 2x boost just like the SSJ2 boost, then Cell, who was stronger than SSJ1 Gohan should be stronger in his "Super Perfect" state than Gohan is in his SSJ2 form.
3. Cell easily cripples Gohan with one blast. You can claim that Gohan wasn't able to guard against it, but if he was much stronger than Cell, couldn't he have just knocked it out of the way?
4. Going along with the last point, when have we ever seen an unguarded attack from a weaker fighter inflict severe damage on a stronger one? Not counting the obvious outlying examples of the Kienzan and Makansapposlfjerlkfje-Special Beam Cannon
5. It seemed to me like Cell wasn't even trying in the Kamehameha duel. He was taking his time taunting Gohan, rather than just ending the duel then and there. But when Vegeta distracted him, he was unable to increase his power fast enough to deal with Gohan's push.
6. Going somewhat out-of-universe here, but if Gohan were stronger than Cell, then why would Vegeta's distraction be necessary? If Gohan were stronger, and had unleashed his full power, wouldn't he have overpowered Cell without Vegeta's help anyway? Vegeta redeeming himself for causing Gohan to be injured doesn't really have a point if Gohan didn't actually need his help anyway.

Anyway, that's just what I think. I realize that most of these are just up to interpretation, but this is the conclusion that I've come up with. Just some food for thought

In response to these...

1. Cell thought he'd win by going full power, and launching his Kamehameha. He was wrong both times.
2. Even taken literally, was Cell stronger than SS1 Gohan? That really isn't made clear. It's rather strongly implied that Gohan is stronger than the Cell Goku fought, and then Cell's "full power" seems to be his version of Grade II. So SS2 Gohan can easily fit as Cell's superior, even before you take into account the possibility of any rage boost (and Cell noticed an increase in Gohan's ki before he turned SS2).
3. He was more concerned with saving Vegeta, and was barely able to put himself in the way of the blast. Judging from what we're shown, anyway.
4. How do you define severe damage? Gohan seemed to damage Raditz significantly with a headbutt. Piccolo at least burned Nappa's back, and Nappa's a tank.
5. That kind of assumes that Cell was holding back when he created the Kamehameha, which I don't think there's any basis for. I think he was so casual because he put so much in the attack that Gohan's weaker one couldn't stop it.
6. Because he was already injured, which made it difficult for him to release his power. Using out of universe logic myself, if Cell was stronger, there's no need to injure Gohan and reduce him to half his power. Gohan needed Vegeta's help because he got injured helping Vegeta. That makes it perfect for Vegeta to make it up to him.

[MDSTSSJ]

In response to these...

1. Cell thought he'd win by going full power, and launching his Kamehameha. He was wrong both times.

Cell knows perfectly the power of enraged Gohan and that's why he is pretty confident to beat him.

2. Even taken literally, was Cell stronger than SS1 Gohan? That really isn't made clear. It's rather strongly implied that Gohan is stronger than the Cell Goku fought, and then Cell's "full power" seems to be his version of Grade II. So SS2 Gohan can easily fit as Cell's superior, even before you take into account the possibility of any rage boost (and Cell noticed an increase in Gohan's ki before he turned SS2).

Mmm SSJ Gohan is a bit stronger than his father but I don't see SSJ Gohan stronger than Perfect Cell who Kakarotto fought.

3. He was more concerned with saving Vegeta, and was barely able to put himself in the way of the blast. Judging from what we're shown, anyway.

If SP Cell was capable of doing tremendous damage to SSJ2 enraged Gohan's arm, what would have happened if given in the head, chest, etc? When someone is supposedly much stronger than the other, should not receive such a serious injury.

4. How do you define severe damage? Gohan seemed to damage Raditz significantly with a headbutt. Piccolo at least burned Nappa's back, and Nappa's a tank.

For me severe damage is the capable of immobilizing someone or immobilize body parts ( arm, legs, etc ). What SP Cell did to SSJ2 enraged Gohan is a really severe damage.

5. That kind of assumes that Cell was holding back when he created the Kamehameha, which I don't think there's any basis for. I think he was so casual because he put so much in the attack that Gohan's weaker one couldn't stop it.

Really? For me Cell was holding back on the entire beam struggle. We saw a pretty confident SP Cell playing with SSJ2 Gohan in the beam struggle. When SP Cell is prepared to release his full power to defeat SSJ2 Gohan, Vegeta distracts him.

6. Because he was already injured, which made it difficult for him to release his power. Using out of universe logic myself, if Cell was stronger, there's no need to injure Gohan and reduce him to half his power. Gohan needed Vegeta's help because he got injured helping Vegeta. That makes it perfect for Vegeta to make it up to him.

Mmm SP Cell did not want to damage Gohan, he just crossed his way, he wanted to kill Vegeta. if Cell had wanted to harm Gohan, he would have done from the beginning. Vegeta helps because he knows a damaged SSJ2 Gohan could never beat SP Cell and I don't think it was because enraged SSJ2 Gohan saved him before.

[Godo]

Goku's Kamehameha against Raditz didn't hurt Raditz because of that Raditz blocked it.
Gohan's Masenko against Nappa didn't hurt Nappa because of that Nappa blocked it.
Goku's Kaio-ken x 20 Kamehameha didn't hurt Freeza because of that Freeza blocked it.
Kuririn's Kienzan didn't hurt Nappa much because of that he evaded it, yet it sliced off Freeza's tail because of that Freeza didn't block it.
Gohan, however, didn't block Cell's attack, hence why he was damaged.
One does not have to be significantly stronger to be able to hurt one's opponent.
That's my opinion.

Also, Freeza was cocky against Goku, even though being the weaker one. This could apply to Cell as well. Cockiness doesn't mean that you are stronger. If that was the case Vegeta would be the strongest character in Dragon Ball. Just saying.

[Hugo Boss]

Gohan pretty much knew how strong Cell was and used Super Saiyan to fight Dabura, whom was said to be as strong as Cell.

Isn't that still being debated?

I don't know. I came here thinking Gohan used Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura, according to Daizenshuu and an interview that I don't have access to, but now I believe Gohan used Super Saiyan in that fight, according to manga's aura design.

[rereboy]

Frankly, its debatable. Believe whatever you want.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't know. I came here thinking Gohan used Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura, according to Daizenshuu and an interview that I don't have access to, but now I believe Gohan used Super Saiyan in that fight, according to manga's aura design.

For what is worth, Gohan is portrayed as a normal Super Saiyan in the colored edition of the manga.
Basically, the only official source that has Gohan a Super Saiyan 2 is Dabra's bio in Daizenshuu 7. It's not debatable for me anymore.

[Herms]

I don't know. I came here thinking Gohan used Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura, according to Daizenshuu and an interview that I don't have access to,

What interview is that?

[RandomGuy96]

If that interview did exist, I'm sure everyone would know about it, and there wouldn't even be a debate.

[Kakashi]

Well, I say SPC rivals SSjin 2 Kid Gohan based on the Manga and evidence already said before

[Kaboom]

I'd forgotten about the distinct coloring differences for SSJ1 and SSJ2 in the new full-color manga. Probably because our thread about it was so short-lived. Another big fat ol' nail in that coffin, as far as I see it.

Anyway, as far as the original topic... the manga seems to suggest that Gohan and Cell are at least close in power. Cell comes back confident that Gohan won't easily beat him this time, Gohan later admits he underestimated Cell's newest power-up, etc. They seem to have been set up as at least rivals in power now, before Gohan's injury tipped the scales firmly in Cell's favor.

As far as the guidebooks go... one of Daizenshuu #2's battle guides says that Gohan "puts forth his strongest power" to win the Kamehameha clash with Cell. The other battles guide in Daizenshuu #2 labels Gohan's Kamehameha that beat Cell as the strongest or greatest one to date. D2's story guide says Gohan "unleashes all his ki in one burst" to win,

All of this would seem to say that however strong Gohan was before his injury, he managed to pull that power and perhaps a little more back out to win. Which fits with the manga. Gohan was at less than half power, and rapidly losing the Kamehameha clash (it was dragged out in the anime, but very quick and obvious in the manga) before he turned things around.

[Hugo Boss]

What interview is that?

It was told to me that Dabra's bio in Daizenshuu 7 was corrected after Toriyama himself [supposedly] saying Gohan should be a Super Saiyan 2 in an interview or something like that. Though I'm not sure if that interview really exists nor if it is official, because no one here appears to know anything about it. And even if it did exists we have another stance where [Boo arc] Gohan was suppose to use Super Saiyan 2 only in vol. 37, at World Tournament, while Dabra's fight is in vol. 38. Then, why they didn't correct that part also? Looks like contradictory information or a slouch (right term?) from Daizenshuu makers or even Toriyama.

Herms, you're the one that translate most of the information for Kanzenshuu, right? If so, you can have a good understanding from what is written in the quote below. It's in Portuguese and is from former Dragon Ball PT forum (now the rebooted Fusanime forum). This user in particular [Saiyajin Gokū] is the #1 mega moderator.

Spoiler:

O do Gohan já é difícil de saber. Já não podemos distinguir os estados SSJ Gohan adulto baseado no cabelo. Num ponto qualquer no manga, o seu cabelo cresceu e o cabelo é igual em SSJ e SSJ2, sendo apenas os raios o ponto que define a diferença entre os dois estados. Por isso aqui no filme é difícil de saber se ele estava em SSJ ou SSJ2.

Claro que podes distinguir a transformação do Son Gohan (Adult Gohan) pelo design do cabelo, não é tão visível como o Teen Gohan (Kid Gohan) obviamente, mas dá para se notar. O Son Gohan Super Saiyajin apresenta duas madeixas de franja enquanto o Super Saiyajin 2 apenas uma. Depois da transformação do Son Gohan frente ao Kibito, ele luta contra o Dabura em Super Saiyajin 2 e tira a Z Sword em Super Saiyajin 2, o que aconteceu é que o Akira Toriryama se esqueceu de detalhar a transformação com a Aura coberta de raios, tal como ele referiu numa entrevista. Se o Son Gohan se transforma livremente frente ao Kibito, porque não o faria frente ao Dabura que é alguém muito mais poderoso?

Isto até leva a ponderar que o Dabura possa ser superior ao Cell Super Perfeito, visto que o Son Gohan estava a enfrenta-lo em Super Saiyajin 2, ou seja, o Cell que o Son Goku e o Vegeta se referiam era o Super Perfeito e mesmo assim equivocaram-se sobre o seu poder, visto que o Dabura deu a entender que poderia vencer o Son Gohan, apenas decidiu aproveitar-se do Vegeta para acordar o Majin Buu mais rápido.

I'd forgotten about the distinct coloring differences for SSJ1 and SSJ2 in the new full-color manga. Probably because our thread about it was so short-lived. Another big fat ol' nail in that coffin, as far as I see it.

Where can I find them? Please.

Anyway, as far as the original topic... the manga seems to suggest that Gohan and Cell are at least close in power. Cell comes back confident that Gohan won't easily beat him this time, Gohan later admits he underestimated Cell's newest power-up, etc. They seem to have been set up as at least rivals in power now, before Gohan's injury tipped the scales firmly in Cell's favor.

What if Gohan was still hiding a considerable amount of power and Cell didn't know it? What if the opposite? Because Gohan was still confident before getting injured.

It's highly suggested that Gohan should be able to defeat Dabra~Cell as a Super Saiyan [2?] if he didn't slack off. As pointed by Vegeta, Gohan was stronger as a brat. Then, it is also implied that Vegeta can beat Dabra~Cell. The form depends on what you believe.

Speaking for myself or being a theoryist, I will try to explain why they put Dabra's bio statement like that in Daizenshuu 7 and the other one totally different. First, I could say Gohan had the same powerlevel in both situations. Second, if 100% Super Saiyan = 50% Super Saiyan 2, so Gohan should be much stronger when he use 100% Super Saiyan 2 [his full power, right?]. This could be the reason Vegeta said Gohan wasn't even close to the level he was when he fought Cell and that Kibito said Gohan wasn't still at full power. What do you think?

[rereboy]

As far as I know, there's no such interview.

[Hugo Boss]

As far as I know, there's no such interview.

I meant the interviews for Daizenshuu makers. Most of the information Mr. Toriyama provides to them were asked in some way, maybe "interview" is not a good term for English speakers, I could say "direct questions".

[Kaboom]

I'd forgotten about the distinct coloring differences for SSJ1 and SSJ2 in the new full-color manga. Probably because our thread about it was so short-lived. Another big fat ol' nail in that coffin, as far as I see it.

Where can I find them? Please.

This was the thread. It got locked rather quickly, but it managed to make its point before it did. In a nutshell, the auras for Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are now not only drawn differently (spikes n' lightning), but even colored in a distinct way in the full-color manga.

[Son_Gohan]

I'd forgotten about the distinct coloring differences for SSJ1 and SSJ2 in the new full-color manga. Probably because our thread about it was so short-lived. Another big fat ol' nail in that coffin, as far as I see it.

Where can I find them? Please.

This was the thread. It got locked rather quickly, but it managed to make its point before it did. In a nutshell, the auras for Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are now not only drawn differently (spikes n' lightning), but even colored in a distinct way in the full-color manga.

It appears the colors are applied based on how intense the aura is:

Spoiler:

Unlikely they'd care for the whole aura debate as fans do.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The aura only changes color to yellow when they fly fast or power-up.

[Kakashi]

Gohan was a SSjin vs Dabura. The Manga is clear about that

[Son_Gohan]

The aura only changes color to yellow when they fly fast or power-up.

Do you know that for a fact, as someone who has looked through each chapter, or are you just assuming it? In any case, it wouldn't appear that coloring an aura's outline to keep transformations distinct was their modus operandi.

[Fionordequester]

Tell you what, I was almost convinced till someone brought up the point of yellow appearing in base auras and the like as well when people were powering up. So, I propose that we find some still shots of SSJ2 or SSJ3 or what have you, with them not powering up in any way, or just standing around, and see if their auras are still yellow.