"Gotenks surpassing Vegeta and the others".

[Zantetsuken]

It's countered by the guidebook and Gotenks admitting that his SSJ3 form will be needed to beat Buu.
And we take what at face value? I think everyone agrees that Goku at SSJ3 is stronger than Fatbuu and SuperBuu, and even KidBuu (according to his conversation with Vegeta) No feats, no conversation of any sort was mentioned with SSJ Gotenks outside of "wow, you're strong"

In regards to the Kaioushin Buu comment, given that Goku outright states that another transformation is taking place, and then Kibitoshin confirms that the form of Buu that appeared (the bulky Buu) is the form of Buu that he took after absorbing South Kaioushin, then it's quite clear that it's a recognized as a form. If Toriyama went out of his way to have Kibitoshin state that it is the form of Buu that he took when absorbing South, then that's a confirmation that he's a form.

As for the statement, it's only YOUR interpretation of the Daizenshuu entry that counters it, when the interpretation that myself and others have given doesn't contradict it. All that the entry says is that after the training, some form of Gotenks surpassed some form of Vegeta, and given that basically everything in the manga supports that Gotenks as a Super Saiya-jin was at least stronger than Ssj2 Vegeta, if not potentially Ssj3 tier, then it can be reasonably inferred that now even base Gotenks had surpassed Ssj2 Vegeta. This would still keep him from completely surpassing Goku, since Gotenks' base form would still be below Ssj3 Goku, but it'd still have him above Ssj2 Vegeta, thus fulfilling the entirety of what the Daizenshuu entry states.

Kek, it says Gotenks Leveled up enough, and as a result his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others. Again, if Gotenks SSJ was SSJ2 Tier, than logically at SSJ3 he would be stronger than Goku AND Vegeta. The entry doesn't imply that at all. It states leveled up, implying that SSJ3 was needed for him to pass Vegeta, but again still not Goku.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Leveling up is pretty much the same as gaining power. It doesn't have to necessarily be a reference to reaching new forms.

[Zantetsuken]

Leveling up is pretty much the same as gaining power. It doesn't have to necessarily be a reference to reaching new forms.

But why not use another phrase unless you specifically wanted to point out other stages of SSJ? I dunno, It's pretty much cut and dry for me, all the Diaz, the manga and the anime say the same thing when you read them as they are, and not try to place your own logic on them.

[Darkprince410]

Yes, the entry says that because of his training in the Room of Spirit and Time, some form of Gotenks surpassed some form of Vegeta. Since the Daizenshuu entry itself isn't stating what form, and that the manga supports a particular interpretation of the entry that disagrees with your interpretation, then there's really only one way to take it. Level up isn't meaning him "obtaining Super Saiya-jin 3", it means exactly what it does in every other context, improving or growing stronger. Leveling up doesn't automatically mean transforming in this context, you just interpret it that way.

Transforming has never been referred to as leveling up at any other point in the Daizenshuu, so why would it need to this time? Every time that transforming is suggested, things like form changes or transforming are mentioned, not leveling up.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Because it all means the same (leveling-up, gaining power, getting stronger, etc) at the end of the day. How many times have we seen "he's on a different level than before" in the story? It's just a reference to power. If the Manga said the same as the Anime or the Daizenshuu, there'd be no debate.

Gotenks has no feats, sure--but there is still enough information to denote he was really powerful before his training.

[Zantetsuken]

Yes, the entry says that because of his training in the Room of Spirit and Time, some form of Gotenks surpassed some form of Vegeta. Since the Daizenshuu entry itself isn't stating what form, and that the manga supports a particular interpretation of the entry that disagrees with your interpretation, then there's really only one way to take it. Level up isn't meaning him "obtaining Super Saiya-jin 3", it means exactly what it does in every other context, improving or growing stronger. Leveling up doesn't automatically mean transforming in this context, you just interpret it that way.

Transforming has never been referred to as leveling up at any other point in the Daizenshuu, so why would it need to this time? Every time that transforming is suggested, things like form changes or transforming are mentioned, not leveling up.

It doesn't say that.
It says Gotenks Leveled up so much (implying a transformation, which we know Gotenks went to SSJ3 at this point) he Surpassed Vegeta (Goku isn't mentioned, meaning they can't be talking about "base forms)"

"The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others."

[Kaboom]

I don't see the problem with considering Gotenks still a "work in progress" before his stint in the Room of Spirit and Time. Maybe he was stronger than the Super Saiyan 2s, maybe not. Maybe he was a match for Boo already, maybe not. The simple but interesting fact of the matter is that it was never actually proven in any way. His strength compared to anyone else was not even confirmed verbally, much less through measurable "feats." No observations from other characters like "feel that power, it's definitely greater than Boo's," or anything of the sort. Which is actually pretty weird, considering that the Majin Boo arc is chock full of those types of lines in other situations.

But one way or another, he definitely surpassed everyone else with everything he did in the Room of Spirit and Time (only AFTER which he actually showed any usefulness, mind), so what does it really matter how strong he was before then?

[Darkprince410]

Yes, leveled up as in increased his power. Transforming is not implied at all, because leveled up or higher levels has never been used to denote a transformation specifically, just powering up. He increased his power so much that he surpassed Vegeta (he didn't surpass Goku because Goku's Ssj3 form was still stronger than Gotenks' base).

[Zantetsuken]

So honest question, do you know what vertigo is? Are you a fan of Bill O'Reilly's no spin Zone?
So regardless of everything EVERYONE has told you, you're still going to believe that Gotenks Pre Rosat was stronger than Goku and Vegeta, even though the guide essentially establishes the exact opposite. Again, if it was base Gotenks (which is doesn't identify, nor suggest) Vs Vegeta SSJ2 - why not just be forthcoming with the information. Gotenks at his maximum is stronger than Goku and the others (in your opinion)

Stubborn opinion is stubborn.

I know it's hard to believe - but Gotenks isn't stronger than Goku, as the guidebooks essentially establish this many times over "Goku is only understood by his fellow strongest" "Goku wants to seek out the strongest in the Universe, looking to fight the reencarnated Buu" "Gohan's hidden power makes him stronger than Gotenks (Goku, Oddly not mentioned)"

Yo' Son Goku and Friends suggest that Goku can 1 shot characters that Gotenks can't meaning, base Gotenks isn't stronger than a SSJ.
The Anime basically states that Goku is the strongest (as does Vegeta, but we like to argue that)

^ All of these things CANNOT be true if we go by your theory. I don't think anyone reading that line outright came to the same conclusion as you - they couldn't.

[Zantetsuken]

Yes, leveled up as in increased his power. Transforming is not implied at all, because leveled up or higher levels has never been used to denote a transformation specifically, just powering up. He increased his power so much that he surpassed Vegeta (he didn't surpass Goku because Goku's Ssj3 form was still stronger than Gotenks' base).

And it's crazy you don't believe that leveling up = transformation. The Guide already establishes the difference between strength and what I believe to be speaking of transformations.

Strength = power.
Leveling up = stages of SSJ

[VegettoEX]

Zantetsuken, you are on the border of another account warning and temporary ban. You're consistently being rude, tossing out unnecessary condescending and dismissive remarks, and none of it has been, is, or will be acceptable.

I'm doubling-down on these attitude problems with regard to strength debates. If you're not willing to be polite with your fellow fans, you can not remain a member of this community.

[Zantetsuken]

Fair enough, my fault.

[ZombieVito]

Inevitable CODE PINK incoming.

Anyway, Daizenshuu 10 and Daizenshuu 7, when taken together, already confirm the superiority of Super Saiyan Gotenks over Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta, by saying that Goten is equal to Cell Games Gohan, and that Gotenks is dozens of times stronger than that (presuambly it is comparing their respective base forms, but I suppose it could also be comparing their respective maxes). Even if you don't consider D10 "canon" for whatever reason, D7 still says that fusion is closer to multiplication than addition, which again makes it impossible for SS2 Vegeta to be stronger than SS Gotenks. So it has to be talking about base Gotenks, which would explain why that blurb is put next to a picture of base Gotenks.

Is anyone alright with this?

[Zantetsuken]

Inevitable CODE PINK incoming.

Anyway, Daizenshuu 10 and Daizenshuu 7, when taken together, already confirm the superiority of Super Saiyan Gotenks over Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta, by saying that Goten is equal to Cell Games Gohan, and that Gotenks is dozens of times stronger than that (presuambly it is comparing their respective base forms, but I suppose it could also be comparing their respective maxes). Even if you don't consider D10 "canon" for whatever reason, D7 still says that fusion is closer to multiplication than addition, which again makes it impossible for SS2 Vegeta to be stronger than SS Gotenks. So it has to be talking about base Gotenks, which would explain why that blurb is put next to a picture of base Gotenks.

Is anyone alright with this?

No, because Herms pointed out that he's misquoting entries, and the statement was next to a picture of SSJ3 Gotenks as well. All we know for sure is Gotenks doesn't pass by Vegeta until after training, and Goku isn't mentioned - if it were based on base forms instead of max power, why not list Goku who we all know to be more powerful? Listing Vegeta and not Goku isn't an oversight, it directly implies that Gotenks is still not on the adult's level.

"X surpassed Y" cannot be interpreted as "X in certain form surpassed Y in certain form". It's either the same form of X & Y or the maximum power they can reach respectively. The conclusion? Daizenshuu went full retard with this one. Not to mention that it's "Vegeta and the others", meaning that Gotenks surpassed at least two other Z fighters, and I doubt Goku is one of them because then it would've been "Goku and the others".

[Kakashi]

Obviously it means Base Gotenks as it's the picture next to the information

Except you ignored what I said above
"After ROSAT - Leveled up enough - Surpass Vegeta"

Yea - obviously not talking about Base Gotenks.

It says Vegeta and the others.

It can mean Base Gotenks (Post) is stronger than SSjin 2 Vegeta

[Kaboom]

Doesn't anyone else see the Daizenshuu entry as "purposefully vague?"

No, the tidbit about Gotenks doesn't explicitly say who he surpassed in which form with which form of his own, and I can think of two big primary possible reasons for that.

1) The manga itself doesn't make it clear.
2) The Daizenshuu guidebooks relate to both the anime and the manga, so the book has to carefully dance around the idea of any other hero being stronger than Goku.

So like many things in and relating to the Majin Boo arc, the strength of Gotenks relative to anyone else is largely up to personal interpretation.

[Zantetsuken]

Obviously it means Base Gotenks as it's the picture next to the information

Except you ignored what I said above
"After ROSAT - Leveled up enough - Surpass Vegeta"

Yea - obviously not talking about Base Gotenks.

It says Vegeta and the others.

It can mean Base Gotenks (Post) is stronger than SSjin 2 Vegeta

Goku isn't interchangeable with Vegeta - no one will contest he's stronger. And once more, it doesn't imply that SSJ2 Vegeta, he's not even mentioned. The special "Yo Son Goku" Shows Goku's SSJ level punch to be more powerful than Gotenks SSJ level punch. This obviously wouldn't even be possible if your theory was correct.

[Zantetsuken]

Doesn't anyone else see the Daizenshuu entry as "purposefully vague?"

No, the tidbit about Gotenks doesn't explicitly say who he surpassed in which form with which form of his own, and I can think of two big primary possible reasons for that.

1) The manga itself doesn't make it clear.
2) The Daizenshuu guidebooks relate to both the anime and the manga, so the book has to carefully dance around the idea of any other hero being stronger than Goku.

So like many things in and relating to the Majin Boo arc, the strength of Gotenks relative to anyone else is largely up to personal interpretation.

Is there a copy of the guidebook for anyone to see the pictures? I found one - translated:
http://magikarp46.com/dragonball/guideb ... php#part01

ゴテンクス
Gotenks
Character in which Goten and Trunks use Fusion and combine.
[His.] He was born through Fusion, taught to Goten and Trunks by Gokuu as a last resort, for the purpose of defeating Majin Boo, who boasted absolute strength. After going through numerous failures, the combining was eventually successful. The two of them confined themselves in the Room of Spirit and Time and rushed to carry out their training as Gotenks. As a result, they leveled up to a strength that eclipses even Vegeta. However, they were taken in by the Boo who had absorbed his good self and powered up.

[ZombieVito]

Inevitable CODE PINK incoming.

Anyway, Daizenshuu 10 and Daizenshuu 7, when taken together, already confirm the superiority of Super Saiyan Gotenks over Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta, by saying that Goten is equal to Cell Games Gohan, and that Gotenks is dozens of times stronger than that (presuambly it is comparing their respective base forms, but I suppose it could also be comparing their respective maxes). Even if you don't consider D10 "canon" for whatever reason, D7 still says that fusion is closer to multiplication than addition, which again makes it impossible for SS2 Vegeta to be stronger than SS Gotenks. So it has to be talking about base Gotenks, which would explain why that blurb is put next to a picture of base Gotenks.

Is anyone alright with this?

No, because Herms pointed out that he's misquoting entries, and the statement was next to a picture of SSJ3 Gotenks as well. All we know for sure is Gotenks doesn't pass by Vegeta until after training, and Goku isn't mentioned - if it were based on base forms instead of max power, why not list Goku who we all know to be more powerful? Listing Vegeta and not Goku isn't an oversight, it directly implies that Gotenks is still not on the adult's level.

"X surpassed Y" cannot be interpreted as "X in certain form surpassed Y in certain form". It's either the same form of X & Y or the maximum power they can reach respectively. The conclusion? Daizenshuu went full retard with this one. Not to mention that it's "Vegeta and the others", meaning that Gotenks surpassed at least two other Z fighters, and I doubt Goku is one of them because then it would've been "Goku and the others".

I'm talking about Goten = Gohan, which means Trunks > Gohan.

[Kakashi]

Goku isn't interchangeable with Vegeta - no one will contest he's stronger. And once more, it doesn't imply that SSJ2 Vegeta, he's not even mentioned. The special "Yo Son Goku" Shows Goku's SSJ level punch to be more powerful than Gotenks SSJ level punch. This obviously wouldn't even be possible if your theory was correct.

Goku has SSjin 3

Base Gotenks is stronger than Base Goku in the OVA. Also, it is no canon

The Daizenshuu has SSjin Gotenks > SSjin 2 Vegeta at least and it's the same book which says Goten equals Gohan

SSjin Gotenks was stronger than Fat Boo is in the Manga