How end of Z base Goku can be equal to buu saga ssj3 Goku

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Because Toriyama said everyone was at "maximum strength" in BOG, and specifically said that he set the movie here instead of the EoZ (where everyone was "too old") for that reason.

You are taking the statement too literally. The Z-Senshi in general are in better condition in Boo arc/BoG than in the 28th TB: Gohan, Goten, and Trunks are slackers, Kuririn & Yamcha have gave up years before, and have gotten even worst than they were in Boo arc, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Chaozu don't improve a lot anymore, and Goku & Vegeta are the only ones that are doing hard training to surpass each other, and Beerus & Whis. The majority of the main characters have gotten old, but Goku & Vegeta have not gotten old, and it is even pointed out that they are not old so that they can stay in their prime longer.

[kuartus4]

Anybody know what Beerus statement about goku was exactly? The subtitles I read have Beers saying something like, " I cannot see the extent of his potential."
Is that accurate? If it is, does it necessarily refer to goku's power? Maybe beers is talking careerwise, as in goku has much potential to be someone of high rank or something like a god of destruction. And if it is refering to power, then the only way I can think of to reconcile that with AT's statement is that Beerus was referring to Goku's god powers and not his regular power. If beers is a 10 then maybe God Goku isn't stuck at 6. Maybe goku can increase his god power to eventually surpass beers and whis without an attending increase in his regular power. Just speculating.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Anybody know what Beerus statement about goku was exactly? The subtitles I read have Beers saying something like, " I cannot see the extent of his potential."
Is that accurate? If it is, does it necessarily refer to goku's power? Maybe beers is talking careerwise, as in goku has much potential to be someone of high rank or something like a god of destruction. And if it is refering to power, then the only way I can think of to reconcile that with AT's statement is that Beerus was referring to Goku's god powers and not his regular power. If beers is a 10 then maybe God Goku isn't stuck at 6. Maybe goku can increase his god power to eventually surpass beers and whis without an attending increase in his regular power. Just speculating.

I have the Taka fansubs, and it says this about Goku's power:

After all that I still didn't get to see his full potential. [...] Perhaps he and Vegeta will become a real threat one day.

Strange, it doesn't say anything about "immeasurable power"... Are the Taka subs good?

[Shnuki]

Are you talking about the scene where Beerus and Whis came back to their planet (or whatever it is)? If so, that's what the subs say in the HK DVD release:



If that's not the one, just tell me which scene you had in mind and I'll take another snapshot.

[kuartus4]

Are you talking about the scene where Beerus and Whis came back to their planet (or whatever it is)? If so, that's what the subs say in the HK DVD release:



If that's not the one, just tell me which scene you had in mind and I'll take another snapshot.

That's definitely the scene. Thanks. You gotta wonder how that fits with this:

"The fact is, I thought, “Man, I really made everyone old in the last chapter of the manga”. I even gave Vegeta a mustache (laughs). So, I chose this period because everyone had got to maximum strength. A few years after the “Majin Buu arc”, and before Pan’s birth."

"It’s because I thought that period would be best in terms of timing, because at that time, everyone’s reached nearly perfect strength; during the Uub era after that, everyone’s gotten too old; and almost the whole cast of characters is there" - Akira Toriyama

[RandomGuy96]

Because Toriyama said everyone was at "maximum strength" in BOG, and specifically said that he set the movie here instead of the EoZ (where everyone was "too old") for that reason.

You are taking the statement too literally..

No, I'm not. Toriyama literally said "Everyone had gotten to maximum strength". That doesn't leave a lot of room for interpretation. He also specifically mentions Vegeta as one of the guys who got too old (but then again, he also says he gave Vegeta a mustache).

BoG base Goku >= EoZ base Goku

[DBZGTKOSDH]

And you really think that Goten & Trunks can't get any stronger? The statement most likely means that while everyone is at their maximum, aka their prime. Like I said in my previous posts, the majority of the Z-Senshi are weaker because they are either slackers (Gohan, Goten, Trunks), or retired & too old (Kuririn, Yamcha), and those who are still training and haven't gotten weaker don't seem to improve much anymore (Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Chaozu).

Besides, EoZ Goku & Vegeta can't be weaker since they are doing non-stop training & they are Saiyans, and since Goku wasn't sure if he could beat Oob (if he could control his power), it means that EoZ Goku & Vegeta aren't very significantly stronger than they were in Boo arc & BoG, so Boo arc Goku ≈ BoG Goku ≈ EoZ Goku, without taking God into account.

[RandomGuy96]

And you really think that Goten & Trunks can't get any stronger? The statement most likely means that while everyone is at their maximum, aka their prime. Like I said in my previous posts, the majority of the Z-Senshi are weaker because they are either slackers (Gohan, Goten, Trunks), or retired & too old (Kuririn, Yamcha), and those who are still training and haven't gotten weaker don't seem to improve much anymore (Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Chaozu).

Besides, EoZ Goku & Vegeta can't be weaker since they are doing non-stop training & they are Saiyans, and since Goku wasn't sure if he could beat Oob (if he could control his power), it means that EoZ Goku & Vegeta aren't very significantly stronger than they were in Boo arc & BoG, so Boo arc Goku ≈ BoG Goku ≈ EoZ Goku, without taking God into account.

Again, he literally said "everyone had got to maximum strength". He didn't say "they're all in their prime" or "everyone is at maximum strength except Goku and Vegeta because they're special". This is really very simple.

Uh, yeah they can. Age still has to effect them at some point. But Buu arc Goku, BOG Goku, and EoZ Goku are all around the same strength, yes. But according to Toriyama himself, EoZ Goku is not stronger than BOG Goku. He's either equal or he's weaker.

I'm reminded of a quote by Rocketman:

Q: When is 100% not 100%?
A: When you're trying to justify your made-up rules for power levels.

So then, when is "everyone" not "everyone"?

The fact is, I thought, “Man, I really made everyone old in the last chapter of the manga”. I even gave Vegeta a mustache (laughs). So, I chose this period because everyone had got to maximum strength

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Uh, yeah they can. Age still has to effect them at some point.

Then how is everyone in their maximum if the kids can get stronger?

But according to Toriyama himself, EoZ Goku is not stronger than BOG Goku. He's either equal or he's weaker.

It's not very realistic for Goku to scream "let's get stronger!" if he gets weaker. So, if he literally can't get any stronger at all (which can't be true, since Toriyama said that there is no limit in increasing your ki), he is at least exactly as strong as he was in BoG.

[goku the krump dancer]

Just thought I'd throw this out there...

In the manga after the time skip when Bulma lashes out at Goku for mentioning how old she looks, Vegeta literally says that he and Goku still look so young because Saiyans thrive in battle thus they stay in their "prime" longer so they can fight longer... Aka their bodies are still at their peaks.

So "how much power they gained post Boo and Beerus" aside, both Goku and Vegeta are still in their physical primes at the end of Z.

[RandomGuy96]

Then how is everyone in their maximum if the kids can get stronger?

Toriyama said this in the context of picking a time in the manga for the movie to be set. Goten and Trunks didn't get any stronger after Buu, and didn't keep up their training according to Goku, so they would have reached maximum strength by EoZ... in the manga, at least.

But hell, aside from DBO there's nothing saying that BOG wasn't Goten and Trunks' maximum strength either.

It's not very realistic for Goku to scream "let's get stronger!" if he gets weaker. So, if he literally can't get any stronger at all (which can't be true, since Toriyama said that there is no limit in increasing your ki), he is at least exactly as strong as he was in BoG.

EoZ Goku < or = BOG Goku. That's all Toriyama said; it doesn't mean that he can't get any stronger after the end. He was most likely training to prevent himself from getting weaker from age. However, I don't think he can get stronger, since Toriyama implied age was taking its toll on Goku, and while there's no limit to your ki cap, at a certain point without any big power ups your training gains won't outstrip your losses from aging. And we know that getting old makes you weaker; see King Piccolo and Roshi.

And again: characters are fallible. The author is effectively omniscient.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

How did Toriyama imply that age had taken a toll on Goku when it was directly stated that physically he hadn't gotten older? And even Kame-sennin could still get stronger at the age he is.

In Boo arc/BoG, everyone is at their maximum. In the 28th TB, most of them are below their maximum, and those that aren't below their maximum are not significantly stronger. It's simple.

But hell, aside from DBO there's nothing saying that BOG wasn't Goten and Trunks' maximum strength either.

Nothing except for logic. They are still kids that haven't done that much training, and they haven't even transformed beyond Super Saiyan.

[RandomGuy96]

Nothing except for logic. They are still kids that haven't done that much training, and they haven't even transformed beyond Super Saiyan.

That's the thing; they simply could not have trained anymore. They're already among the strongest beings the universe and have other things to do. What do they care?

How did Toriyama imply that age had taken a toll on Goku when it was directly stated that physically he hadn't gotten older? And even Kame-sennin could still get stronger at the age he is.

He specifically said that he didn't set BOG at the end of the manga because everyone was too old, and chose an earlier period because everyone was at their maximum strength.

In Boo arc/BoG, everyone is at their maximum. In the 28th TB, most of them are below their maximum, and those that aren't below their maximum are not significantly stronger. It's simple.

Yeah, it is. Everyone's at their maximum in BOG. Everyone. Everyone.

Simple.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That's the thing; they simply could not have trained anymore. They're already among the strongest beings the universe and have other things to do. What do they care?

My bad, I thought you were saying that even if they tried, they wouldn't get any stronger.

[MDSTSSJ]

It's not very realistic for Goku to scream "let's get stronger!" if he gets weaker. So, if he literally can't get any stronger at all (which can't be true, since Toriyama said that there is no limit in increasing your ki), he is at least exactly as strong as he was in BoG.

EoZ Goku < or = BOG Goku. That's all Toriyama said; it doesn't mean that he can't get any stronger after the end. He was most likely training to prevent himself from getting weaker from age. However, I don't think he can get stronger, since Toriyama implied age was taking its toll on Goku, and while there's no limit to your ki cap, at a certain point without any big power ups your training gains won't outstrip your losses from aging. And we know that getting old makes you weaker; see King Piccolo and Roshi.

And again: characters are fallible. The author is effectively omniscient.

You got to be kidding me Random!

End of Boo Arc Kakarotto said clearly that he would become stronger ( he is stronger in BoG's time and even more stronger in EoZ time ). He never said that he is gonna training to prevent himself from getting weaker from age. One thing is that you think that he can't get any stronger and the other thing is what Goku says or think. Obviously what Goku says, goes above what you think. If Goku was old and could not get stronger, of course he would recognize that because that's the way he always is!

If Toriyama contradicts what says in the Manga or Movie 14, I don't care what he say. Goku, Vegeta or any of them statements >>>>> Toriyama statements.

[Draken]

It's not very realistic for Goku to scream "let's get stronger!" if he gets weaker. So, if he literally can't get any stronger at all (which can't be true, since Toriyama said that there is no limit in increasing your ki), he is at least exactly as strong as he was in BoG.

EoZ Goku < or = BOG Goku. That's all Toriyama said; it doesn't mean that he can't get any stronger after the end. He was most likely training to prevent himself from getting weaker from age. However, I don't think he can get stronger, since Toriyama implied age was taking its toll on Goku, and while there's no limit to your ki cap, at a certain point without any big power ups your training gains won't outstrip your losses from aging. And we know that getting old makes you weaker; see King Piccolo and Roshi.

And again: characters are fallible. The author is effectively omniscient.

You got to be kidding me Random!

End of Boo Arc Kakarotto said clearly that he would become stronger ( he is stronger in BoG's time and even more stronger in EoZ time ). He never said that he is gonna training to prevent himself from getting weaker from age. One thing is that you think that he can't get any stronger and the other thing is what Goku says or think. Obviously what Goku says, goes above what you think. If Goku was old and could not get stronger, of course he would recognize that because that's the way he always is!

If Toriyama contradicts what says in the Manga or Movie 14, I don't care what he say. Goku, Vegeta or any of them statements >>>>> Toriyama statements.

So if Goku during the Buu arc stated that he could destroy the Universe with one attack as a hyperbole and Toriyama said "haha i thought it'd be funny, ofc he can't!" you'd think Goku could actually destroy the Universe?

[RandomGuy96]

You got to be kidding me Random!

End of Boo Arc Kakarotto said clearly that he would become stronger ( he is stronger in BoG's time and even more stronger in EoZ time ). He never said that he is gonna training to prevent himself from getting weaker from age. One thing is that you think that he can't get any stronger and the other thing is what Goku says or think. Obviously what Goku says, goes above what you think. If Goku was old and could not get stronger, of course he would recognize that because that's the way he always is!

If Toriyama contradicts what says in the Manga or Movie 14, I don't care what he say. Goku, Vegeta or any of them statements >>>>> Toriyama statements.

Buu Saga Goku did become stronger. BOG Goku did not; he's either equal to or stronger than his EoZ self. Toriyama himself said that.

Characters are fallible. The author is omniscient. Toriyama didn't even write Movie 14, so why should comments in one of the famously contradictory movies override Toriyama himself?

[MDSTSSJ]

So if Goku during the Buu arc stated that he could destroy the Universe with one attack as a hyperbole and Toriyama said "haha i thought it'd be funny, ofc he can't!" you'd think Goku could actually destroy the Universe?

That's an exaggeration my friend Draken. First of all, Goku never said things that are unattainable for him and you know that. Goku was cocky as a kid, he growing up and became a more humble person most of the time.

If Kakarotto said he will become stronger, why not believe him?

Toriyama has proven to be forgetful and distracted with DB. So if Toriyama contradicts what Goku said, I take Goku's words first.

[MDSTSSJ]

Buu Saga Goku did become stronger. BOG Goku did not; he's either equal to or stronger than his EoZ self. Toriyama himself said that.

Don't make any sense Random! Goku clearly says that he will become stronger because he wants to fight against the reincarnation of Boo, where the only way to defeat him is to become stronger than it was in the Boo Saga. Kakarotto doesn't know when Oob may appear, so he knows that he must train hard, differents ways to train and find fast ways to exceed their limits.

Characters are fallible. The author is omniscient. Toriyama didn't even write Movie 14, so why should comments in one of the famously contradictory movies override Toriyama himself?

Because what we see does not match what Toriyama says.

[RandomGuy96]

Don't make any sense Random! Goku clearly says that he will become stronger because he wants to fight against the reincarnation of Boo, where the only way to defeat him is to become stronger than it was in the Boo Saga. Kakarotto doesn't know when Oob may appear, so he knows that he must train hard, differents ways to train and find fast ways to exceed their limits.

Umm, I don't know what you're getting at. He does become stronger than he was in the Buu Saga; just not by much, and his gains more or less max out at BOG, approximately the half-way point of the training. From there, it's just maintenance.

Because what we see does not match what Toriyama says.

Do we see EOZ Goku demonstrate strength superior to BOG Goku?