How end of Z base Goku can be equal to buu saga ssj3 Goku

[kuartus4]

I think Goku fighting evenly with uub (who proved to be as powerful as kid buu), while in base proves his base at the end of z is = to his ssj3 10 years earlier.
It would seem to be the only way to make sense of the fact that base goku wasn't obliterated by enraged uub's kiai which contained the full power of kid buu. The only way I myself can make sense of Goku becoming 400x stronger in base form in 10 years time is for him to not actually get any stronger. I think he had old kai do the unlock ritual on him sometime after the events of BoG. And since Akira Toriyama confirms that Goku was at his maximum in BoG, that would mean he would have no more potential to unlock and the ritual would only serve to transfer his ssj3 strength into his base form, similar to how gohan had all his potential strength available to him in base form without having to transform. It would make sense for him to try that since he would no longer have to deal with the strain of ssj3 which makes the form very impractical.

What do ya'll think?

[Uber Mouse]

Could be ignorance on my part, but I never thought that Uub at that very moment was a strong as Kid Buu. His stregnth was coming out as they fought but no where near the level of Kid Buu.

[xJeffx]

I thought it was base form Goku from GT that was equal to buu saga ssj3 Goku.
Anyway for the Goku vs Uub fight, I don't think Uub fully tapped into vast power that kid buu used to have.

[rereboy]

I think Goku fighting evenly with uub (who proved to be as powerful as kid buu)

I think that Uub only has the same potential as Buu. Everyone gets impressed by his power, but its not actually stated that Uub released Ki equal to Buu during their fight. So, no, I don't agree.

[freezamite]

End of Z base Goku had approximately the same strength than Namek base Goku. Ub was Kid Bu reincarnation as a human, but like any other human, he didn't know how to fight properly and this is why Goku goes with him.
But that being said, in terms of strength Ub was much above base Goku on that tournament, I mean, with a single kick he left Goku's arm seriously affected...

[Darkprince410]

End of Z base Goku had approximately the same strength than Namek base Goku. Ub was Kid Bu reincarnation as a human, but like any other human, he didn't know how to fight properly and this is why Goku goes with him.
But that being said, in terms of strength Ub was much above base Goku on that tournament, I mean, with a single kick he left Goku's arm seriously affected...

I wouldn't say that it was seriously affected, but it was certainly a blow strong enough to surprise him and cause a real sting. Seriously affecting him would have resulted in actual injury and some indication that he couldn't use it properly, but his reaction was more along the lines of anticipating the hit and preparing to block it, but the actual blow being more considerable than he anticipated, so it stung him a good bit. It'd be like the equivalent of catching a ball thrown quickly at you; there wasn't any real damage being done by you catching it, but your hands are going to hurt a bit afterward because the force behind it was more than you predicted.

[freezamite]

End of Z base Goku had approximately the same strength than Namek base Goku. Ub was Kid Bu reincarnation as a human, but like any other human, he didn't know how to fight properly and this is why Goku goes with him.
But that being said, in terms of strength Ub was much above base Goku on that tournament, I mean, with a single kick he left Goku's arm seriously affected...

I wouldn't say that it was seriously affected, but it was certainly a blow strong enough to surprise him and cause a real sting. Seriously affecting him would have resulted in actual injury and some indication that he couldn't use it properly, but his reaction was more along the lines of anticipating the hit and preparing to block it, but the actual blow being more considerable than he anticipated, so it stung him a good bit. It'd be like the equivalent of catching a ball thrown quickly at you; there wasn't any real damage being done by you catching it, but your hands are going to hurt a bit afterward because the force behind it was more than you predicted.

I know there wasn't a real injury on Goku's arm, but it's still an effect that a hit from someone with the same strength wouldn't have had.
I doubt Goku underestimated Ub in the sense of him restraining his power even more than being at his base state actually does.

As I see it, Ub > Base Goku.

[Darkprince410]

End of Z base Goku had approximately the same strength than Namek base Goku. Ub was Kid Bu reincarnation as a human, but like any other human, he didn't know how to fight properly and this is why Goku goes with him.
But that being said, in terms of strength Ub was much above base Goku on that tournament, I mean, with a single kick he left Goku's arm seriously affected...

I wouldn't say that it was seriously affected, but it was certainly a blow strong enough to surprise him and cause a real sting. Seriously affecting him would have resulted in actual injury and some indication that he couldn't use it properly, but his reaction was more along the lines of anticipating the hit and preparing to block it, but the actual blow being more considerable than he anticipated, so it stung him a good bit. It'd be like the equivalent of catching a ball thrown quickly at you; there wasn't any real damage being done by you catching it, but your hands are going to hurt a bit afterward because the force behind it was more than you predicted.

I know there wasn't a real injury on Goku's arm, but it's still an effect that a hit from someone with the same strength wouldn't have had.
I doubt Goku underestimated Ub in the sense of him restraining his power even more than being at his base state actually does.

As I see it, Ub > Base Goku.

I agree that if the fight kept going, he would be pushing past Goku, but there wasn't really anything I saw that suggested that Uub had any real superiority to him as far as the fight went. Goku was goading him into getting mad so as to attack him with more of his true strength, but when Uub did attack him, it was more than he anticipated. Even though he knew how powerful Uub was capable of becoming with proper training, at the time he didn't have any real idea of Uub's current abilities or the strength of the incoming blow. Goku, given that his opponent is inexperienced and unaware of his potential, was going to start out with his strength held back and work his way up as Uub did as well, but when Uub kicked him, it had far more strength behind it than Goku anticipated.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't believe that base Goku surpassed his previous SS3 self, I actually don't think he even doubled his BP over the decade (Goku wasn't sure if he could beat Oob). The way I see it, Oob at full power is about as strong as Pure Boo, but because he can't use ki in any way, he can't use his true power. He is obviously stronger than base Goku in the tournament, but with Goku being skilled, and Oob not being skilled at all, Goku can manage to have an even fight, at least for a few seconds (since Oob was beating Goku).

So, Enraged Oob's ki is as big as Pure Boo's, but he can't hit as hard as Boo could.

[freezamite]

I know there wasn't a real injury on Goku's arm, but it's still an effect that a hit from someone with the same strength wouldn't have had.
I doubt Goku underestimated Ub in the sense of him restraining his power even more than being at his base state actually does.

As I see it, Ub > Base Goku.

I agree that if the fight kept going, he would be pushing past Goku, but there wasn't really anything I saw that suggested that Uub had any real superiority to him as far as the fight went. Goku was goading him into getting mad so as to attack him with more of his true strength, but when Uub did attack him, it was more than he anticipated. Even though he knew how powerful Uub was capable of becoming with proper training, at the time he didn't have any real idea of Uub's current abilities or the strength of the incoming blow. Goku, given that his opponent is inexperienced and unaware of his potential, was going to start out with his strength held back and work his way up as Uub did as well, but when Uub kicked him, it had far more strength behind it than Goku anticipated.

Well Goku surely held back by going at it without turning into a SSJ, but since he is one of the best controlling himself and the base state is the one where he can of course control his strength much better, I think that he went at max base state in that fight and (only in terms of strength of course) got surpassed by Uub when he made him enrage.

Of course, as a fighter Goku is 100000 times better than Uub but I don't think he would go there unaware of Uub potential. I mean, I think it's more logical by Goku's part to go there at full power base state and then kick softly enough not to harm him than to go there restraining even more power and risking being one hit killed by someone who had the potential of becoming as strong as kid bu was.

Since nothing was said about him restraining his power in base state or not, it's just a matter of what we prefer to think as long as Uub > Power Goku showed at that tournament (be it the maximum of his base state or just a fraction of it).

So, Enraged Oob's ki is as big as Pure Boo's, but he can't hit as hard as Boo could.

I disagree. I mean, if Oob was that strong when he enraged, and he kicked as strong as he could, he would've killed Goku. I mean, at kid bu level of strength and speed it doesn't matter if you know how to fight or fire your ki or not, Goku would've been unable to react to that attack and also killed in an instant.

[MDSTSSJ]

I think Goku fighting evenly with uub (who proved to be as powerful as kid buu), while in base proves his base at the end of z is = to his ssj3 10 years earlier.
It would seem to be the only way to make sense of the fact that base goku wasn't obliterated by enraged uub's kiai which contained the full power of kid buu. The only way I myself can make sense of Goku becoming 400x stronger in base form in 10 years time is for him to not actually get any stronger. I think he had old kai do the unlock ritual on him sometime after the events of BoG. And since Akira Toriyama confirms that Goku was at his maximum in BoG, that would mean he would have no more potential to unlock and the ritual would only serve to transfer his ssj3 strength into his base form, similar to how gohan had all his potential strength available to him in base form without having to transform. It would make sense for him to try that since he would no longer have to deal with the strain of ssj3 which makes the form very impractical.

What do ya'll think?

There is nothing that tells us that EoZ Base Goku is as strong as his Boo Arc SSJ3. While in the beginning of GT if more feasible since he had a very powerful sparring partner ( as never before ) for training ( Oob ).

In the Boo Saga, before killing Pure Boo, Kakarotto asked the reincarnation of Pure Boo to have another fight against him and he ( Goku ) said he will become much better. " Better " means become stronger because that's the only way to defeat the reincarnation of Pure Boo in hand to hand combat as he wanted. When Vegeta wanted to kill Mr Boo, Kakarotto said he would become stronger. If Goku says he will return stronger, he will be stronger and we should not doubt about that.

Which Toriyama has said that Goku was at his maximum in BoG does not mean he do not have more potential to unlock through training. The fact that Birusu have talked about the Kakarotto immeasurable power, only confirms what I always thought about that he is very far away from being an ordinary Saiyan-jin.

Manga statements >>>>> Toriyama statements. Movie 14 statements >>>>> Toriyama statements.

Other thing, Goku wasn't sure if he could beat Oob OR Mr. Boo a being much weaker than Pure Boo or his SSJ3 form. Kakarotto specifically says that " someone besides us ( Z warriors ) and Mr. Boo might win " that's why I strongly believe that he is referring to his base form.

There is no way that Mr. Boo could beat Goku in his SSJ3 form and after 10 years of hard training ( where he said he would return stronger ), there is no way that enraged Oob ( Pure Boo reincarnation but without the incredible technique of regeneration ) could beat Kakarotto in his SSJ3 form.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I disagree. I mean, if Oob was that strong when he enraged, and he kicked as strong as he could, he would've killed Goku. I mean, at kid bu level of strength and speed it doesn't matter if you know how to fight or fire your ki or not, Goku would've been unable to react to that attack and also killed in an instant.

Goku said that Oob was as strong as he expected him to be, but he couldn't control his power. That's why I came to that conclusion.

But you are free to disagree, since what I said isn't a fact.

[freezamite]

I disagree. I mean, if Oob was that strong when he enraged, and he kicked as strong as he could, he would've killed Goku. I mean, at kid bu level of strength and speed it doesn't matter if you know how to fight or fire your ki or not, Goku would've been unable to react to that attack and also killed in an instant.

Goku said that Oob was as strong as he expected him to be, but he couldn't control his power. That's why I came to that conclusion.

But you are free to disagree, since what I said isn't a fact.

Well, but in DB not controlling the ki means that you get weak. I mean, Nappa was much, much better controlling his ki even when he was enraged, and he fought at a much, much lower level than he potentially could.
Now imagine how far from his potential strength Uub was because of him not controlling his ki.

There is no way that Mr. Boo could beat Goku in his SSJ3 form and after 10 years of hard training ( where he said he would return stronger ), there is no way that enraged Oob ( Pure Boo reincarnation but without the incredible technique of regeneration ) could beat Kakarotto in his SSJ3 form.

But you also have to account for the limits established on the series. Goku's base state couldn't get stronger because it stopped to rise after the Namek saga.
Each level of SSJ means forcing Goku's body more to the limit and when he fought against Kid bu he couldn't even maintain his SSJ3 form because of that.
I read that "I will become stronger" in the sense that as a living being he could still increase his mastery on the SSJ3 level lessening the impact of using it on the body, but in terms of strength I doubt he could go any further than what we saw during the fight with Kid bu.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Well, Oob had almost zero knowledge of fighting in general, and he was learning how to fight on-spot. He is a unique occasion, because we've never seen someone with zero skill & experience + so huge power. We only had Gohan in the beginning, but his power was nowhere near Oob's power. So, IMO, having zero skill makes you unable to control such a gigantic power.

[freezamite]

Well, Oob had almost zero knowledge of fighting in general, and he was learning how to fight on-spot. He is a unique occasion, because we've never seen someone with zero skill & experience + so huge power. We only had Gohan in the beginning, but his power was nowhere near Oob's power. So, IMO, having zero skill makes you unable to control such a gigantic power.

Exactly what I think. He has that potential power, but because he doesn't know how to control it his strength is much below what it should be.
It's a bit like comparing a basic SSJ and a FP SSJ. The most important difference between those is that a FP SSJ controls his Ki better than a basic SSJ, more than one being stronger than the other.

[MDSTSSJ]

Each level of SSJ means forcing Goku's body more to the limit and when he fought against Kid bu he couldn't even maintain his SSJ3 form because of that.
I read that "I will become stronger" in the sense that as a living being he could still increase his mastery on the SSJ3 level lessening the impact of using it on the body, but in terms of strength I doubt he could go any further than what we saw during the fight with Kid bu.

How you master such a gigantic power? The only way is being stronger my friend! That's way I believe that increase his mastery is increase his power and we saw that on the differences between SSJ and FPSSJ.

Everything you said, Goku knows perfectly. You think that Kakarotto, perfectly knowing the power of Pure Boo, ask his reincarnation thinking that he would not be more stronger? Oh no, I don't buy that. To defeat someone like Pure Boo is not enough to last longer in a transformation, you have to be stronger to defeat him.

We're talking about Goku, a Saiya-jin who have always found ways to overcome their own limits beyond what we could imagine.

[RandomGuy96]

There is nothing that tells us that EoZ Base Goku is as strong as his Boo Arc SSJ3. While in the beginning of GT if more feasible since he had a very powerful sparring partner ( as never before ) for training ( Oob ).

In the Boo Saga, before killing Pure Boo, Kakarotto asked the reincarnation of Pure Boo to have another fight against him and he ( Goku ) said he will become much better. " Better " means become stronger because that's the only way to defeat the reincarnation of Pure Boo in hand to hand combat as he wanted. When Vegeta wanted to kill Mr Boo, Kakarotto said he would become stronger. If Goku says he will return stronger, he will be stronger and we should not doubt about that.

He can get stronger and all, but BOG was as strong as he was ever going to be, and his base was still weaker than Freeza there, so he's not likely to improve significantly at all. I think EoZ Goku is only equal to Pure Buu in SS3.

SS3 Goku (Buu)- 32.4
SS3 Goku (BOG)- 38
SS3 Goku (EoZ)- 36
Pure Buu- 36

He didn't actually do anything in base to prove he was above Pure Buu. Not only would such a thing be completely and utterly ridiculous considering how little power he gained when he was younger and training in the afterlife, but Toriyama himself says BOG base Goku > EoZ base Goku. And that Goku is weaker than Freeza.

Which Toriyama has said that Goku was at his maximum in BoG does not mean he do not have more potential to unlock through training. The fact that Birusu have talked about the Kakarotto immeasurable power, only confirms what I always thought about that he is very far away from being an ordinary Saiyan-jin.

Manga statements >>>>> Toriyama statements. Movie 14 statements >>>>> Toriyama statements.

What? Statements from the actual author of the Dragon Ball manga are overridden by a plothole laden movie? How does that make any sense?

Other thing, Goku wasn't sure if he could beat Oob OR Mr. Boo a being much weaker than Pure Boo or his SSJ3 form. Kakarotto specifically says that " someone besides us ( Z warriors ) and Mr. Boo might win " that's why I strongly believe that he is referring to his base form.

Oooor Mr. Buu just has a chance of beating EoZ SS3 Goku. That's perfectly plausible going by Goku's stamina issues and their respective fights with Pure Buu.

There is no way that Mr. Boo could beat Goku in his SSJ3 form and after 10 years of hard training ( where he said he would return stronger ), there is no way that enraged Oob ( Pure Boo reincarnation but without the incredible technique of regeneration ) could beat Kakarotto in his SSJ3 form.

Yeah, there is. Training should barley make him any stronger, and I firmly believe that both Mr. Buu and Pure Buu could beat him normally back in the Buu Saga.

[freezamite]

Each level of SSJ means forcing Goku's body more to the limit and when he fought against Kid bu he couldn't even maintain his SSJ3 form because of that.
I read that "I will become stronger" in the sense that as a living being he could still increase his mastery on the SSJ3 level lessening the impact of using it on the body, but in terms of strength I doubt he could go any further than what we saw during the fight with Kid bu.

How you master such a gigantic power? The only way is being stronger my friend! That's way I believe that increase his mastery is increase his power and we saw that on the differences between SSJ and FPSSJ.

Everything you said, Goku knows perfectly. You think that Kakarotto, perfectly knowing the power of Pure Boo, ask his reincarnation thinking that he would not be more stronger? Oh no, I don't buy that. To defeat someone like Pure Boo is not enough to last longer in a transformation, you have to be stronger to defeat him.

We're talking about Goku, a Saiya-jin who have always found ways to overcome their own limits beyond what we could imagine.

Well, to dominate a state translates in becoming stronger, but I don't think a sayan body can go much further than SSJ3, at least with the SSJ path of becoming stronger. SSJ3 was in fact an upgrade over SSJ2 and that was in its turn an upgrade over FPSSJ, and FP SSJ was a SSJ that had the SSJ state mastered. What I mean is that I don't think that the SSJ3 can have an evolution resembling the one we saw on the first level of SSJ, because the SSJ3 more than a diferent transformation under special circumstances is a refinement of what FP SSJ and SSJ2 were (this is why SSJ2 and SSJ3 could be reached by training, while SSJ was impossible unless you were born as a SSJ a la present Gotenks and Trunks or under special conditions).

Of course, this isn't stated on the manga (the fact that there is a limit, although I think that the manga points towards that), so it's just a matter of tastes. Since the jump between a SSJ and a FPSSJ was so big, the jump between a FP SSJ and a SSJ2 was much smaller and finally the jump between that and SSJ3 was even smaller, I think that every level of SSJ is just a refinement over the previous levels more than special transformations with full unlocked potential on them.

[Draken]

I was always under the belief that Uub wasn't as strong as Pure Buu at the time either.

[kuartus4]

Goku expected a human with pure buu's strength. And he got what he wanted.



Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P12.2-5
Context: Oob is surprised by Goku’s Bukujutsu
Goku: “Oh, I see. You still don’t even know how to fly, huh? …I guess there ain’t no helping it. You haven’t had no teacher, and you probably never even considered things like that. Sorry I bad-mouthed you before. Please forgive me. I just wanted to know your true ability. You’re exactly the person I thought you were. As amazin’ as I expected. But you don’t know how to use your power. This is the first time you’ve fought like this, right? I've got it! From now on I'll live with you at your house and teach you!”


Goku brought out Oob's true ability and that confirmed who oob was. Kid buu. His true ability was obviously the stregth he had as kid buu, which goku had felt before. Goku confirmed who oob was by feeling his power through that kiai, meaning the kiai had the power of pure buu. And base goku withstood it. If someone who is only frieza tier gets hit by a kid buu tier kiai, then the frieza tier fellow will be obliterated. I think that should go without saying. Hence, EoZ Base Goku is pure buu tier. Its basically confirmed fact. And the only way I know to make sense of that is to Postulate that EoZ Goku is actually Mystic Goku. Refer to my first post.