Dragon Ball and the Bechdel test.

[Kingdom Heartless]

I wasn't having a go at you, Kendamu.

"Passing" the test is definitely by no means a seal of approval. As I mentioned, I initially heard about this through Dumbing of Age, which also brought up the fact that Twilight in fact "passes" the test. To claim Twilight meets any standard in feminism is a stretch. I don't think the test is some ideal feminism test, but it could serve as an interesting starting point for a discussion on the matter.

Being the kind of series it is, I don't judge Dragon Ball too harshly for the roles it gives to women.

[Rocketman]

Why should one have to be removed first?

Because we aren't gods, able to advance all of society with a single mighty heave.

Because it's better to do something than to whine that we can't do everything.

Because this bullshit exists only as a excuse to go "but what about the mennnnnnn" and then gloat about how you totally showed those feminists, then continue sitting on your hands doing jack shit to help women's or men's causes.

[superfunk]

Why should one have to be removed first?

Because we aren't gods, able to advance all of society with a single mighty heave.

Because it's better to do something that to whine that we can't do everything.

Because this bullshit exists only as a excuse to go "but what about the mennnnnnn" and then gloat about how you totdetrimentd those feminists, then continue sitting on your hands doing jack shit to help women's or men's causes.

I hate to take this topic further away from dragonball but i knew this thread would get there. Being a white female in the western world is the most privliged ( I hate using that word in this context) gender race combo in the world, but femenists still complain. They are fighting for their rights and not for the women that are truly oppressed. IMO modern day feminism is detrimental as a whole.

[FrogTrigger]

Edited because it was a good idea

On the subject of dbz/bechdel, 18 probably takes the cake on this

[Saiga]

You can't see how never allowing women to even talk to each other is just a bit more important that whatever minor complaints men have?

I can, but not every series that lacks women talking to each other is a product of deliberately not allowing it. The practice of actively failing the test, and encouraging others to do the same is certainly a problem, and I think it's outright disgusting. However

Why is the plot written so that women never talk to each other?

Should all plots be written so that women have to talk to each other? Because if not, it can be perfectly natural for the plot to progress without women needing to talk to each other to push it forward.

[Kid Buu]

Yeah, but the overall problem is that a lot of plots are written to avoid this test (speaking in general terms, not Toryiama's manga). It’s not a coincidence that the film industry is a male-dominated industry. An article from less than a year ago talks about how female speaking roles in films are at an all-time low.

[garnetjester]

I don't think entertainment has to be divided in feminist stuff and misogynistic stuff. Something can clearly not be feminist by any standards (like Dragon Ball), but it also doesn't mean that it's somehow against women. I agree that there could be more female characters in DB, and the ones that are in the series could be more fleshed out, but I understand that this story isn't exactly about that so that's ok too.

Now, when it comes to the "women are more privileged than men so they should shut up" or "Won't somebody think of the men?" commentaries, I'll just bow out of that discussion altogether.

[Gaffer Tape]

Because this bullshit exists only as a excuse to go "but what about the mennnnnnn" and then gloat about how you totally showed those feminists, then continue sitting on your hands doing jack shit to help women's or men's causes.

Wow. That is the biggest leap I've ever read in my life. I'm serious. My mind is absolutely blown. How did you even get from "take all instances of sexism seriously regardless of who the victim is" to that?! I'm honestly incredibly insulted that you would feel comfortable in making such baseless assumptions about anybody's motives. Because I can guarantee you I have no desire to "gloat about how I showed those feminists." And you have absolutely no evidence to say whether or not anyone is sitting on his/her hands.

But this is exactly what I was talking about. It all devolves into petty arguments over who has it worse and who has the right to complain, which is just a waste of time and does nothing but further divide people and pit them against each other. And again, that is the complete antithesis of striving for equality, as far as I am concerned.

That said, I did agree with your defenses of the Bechdel Test and its applications to Dragon Ball up to this point and was happy to see you refute the earlier claim that it was just some whiny, 3-step judgment to sexism. I too find it fascinatingly terrible how few works have females as main characters and any kind of awareness towards that is good in my book.

[ABED]

That said, I did agree with your defenses of the Bechdel Test and its applications to Dragon Ball up to this point and was happy to see you refute the earlier claim that it was just some whiny, 3-step judgment to sexism. I too find it fascinatingly terrible how few works have females as main characters and any kind of awareness towards that is good in my book.

Are you interested in the female POV and intend to watch shows with those female characters or do you just want look like you care about social injustice?

[DBZAOTA482]

I think it's more interesting how people (even some women) react to female characters. The level of vitriol for Skylar White on Breaking Bad baffles me. I wonder if people would've found Pan less annoying if she was a boy.

Meh, the criticism towards Skylar White became pretty justified when she cheated on Walker when he had cancer. Oh and smoking when she's pregnant.

And no, I'd find Pan annoying either way. She's annoying because she's a bratty bitch.


On-Topic: Dragon Ball met all three criterias.

[ABED]

Sure, cooking meth and murdering people is fine, but cheat on your husband, and you're the bitch.

[Elguapo]

Test like these, looking for lack of races or anything that looks for something along those lines are nothing but trouble makers. Who ever wrote it, whatever it is, its from their perspective. They use aspects of their life they can relate & examples that have influenced them..

Instead of looking for sexist or raciest undertone, just place yourself in the author's shoes. Maybe he does not have two women talking to themselves because they cant imagine how two women would talk in a natural way. I'm a guy and I have no fucking clue what is going through women's heads sometimes. Sometimes their perspective on a situation is so different from mine it makes my head spin. So if I were to write a book I would not even try to write from a woman's perspective its not that I dont love women, I just cant relate.

The same logic is used for race, if you grew up in a predominantly homogenous community, your stories would reflect that. Most likely your day dreams are linked to an environment with the supporting cast as a reflection of your personal experiences..

It really pisses me off when I hear complaints about race or sex. I think people who look for these things are just trouble makers trying to generate traffic for their blog or some shit like that. And when authors or directors change their story to please these people it takes away from what they are trying to express in THEIR story. People just need to stfu sometimes.

[ABED]

It irks me whenever I hear or read comments about characters other than white males in movies and TV shows, because they usually inevitably seem to become more than just characters but symbolic of an entire race or gender. Why can't characters just be characters? Not every male or female needs to be strong because not everyone is strong. There are weak women just like there are weak men. They just need to be interesting.

[DBZAOTA482]

Sure, cooking meth and murdering people is fine, but cheat on your husband, and you're the bitch.

I'm not saying what Walker is doing is perfectly fine but that doesn't make what Skylar Walker does okay.

[rereboy]

Sure, cooking meth and murdering people is fine, but cheat on your husband, and you're the bitch.

Actually, a character who does bad things for the sake of his family comes across as more sympathetic than a character that treats her loved ones badly, even if the bad things he does are actually worse things than what the other character did (of course, later on its becomes clear that his family is more like an excuse to justify his actions, but at that point in the show that wasn't so clear).

[UpFromTheSkies]

Dragon Ball is a manga created specifically for juvenile males, of course it's not going to pass a test like this.

[ABED]

I'm not saying she's a great person, but she gets an unwarranted amount of flack, and I think much of that is because she's a woman. Even if Walter did it for his family (it's clear that's not the case even in the beginning), he put his family in such a horrible position, that any temporary relief is justified. However, she does ultimately make some awful decisions, but the cheating was hardly one of the worst. She didn't treat Walter any worse than he treated her. The harsh judgment of characters like her and Pan feel unwarranted. Pan can be annoying but her relationship with her grandfather and Giru are sweet.

I'm not saying what Walker is doing is perfectly fine but that doesn't make what Skylar Walker does okay.

On a continuum of good and bad behavior, who was worse?

[The Monkey King]

Yes, yes and how many times do the men in Dragon Ball talk to each other when it's not about fighting or training or punching someone in the face?

And yeah, if I'm gonna write an action comin targeted at ten year old boys, I'm gonna draw more of what they want to see: mem fighting each other in an OTT fashion than things they don't care about such as women talking about something boring.
Also remember this is Dragon Ball we're talking about, the manga where best friends don't talk for years at a time and how many words did Goku even say to Goten...10?

I think it's more interesting how people (even some women) react to female characters. The level of vitriol for Skylar White on Breaking Bad baffles me. I wonder if people would've found Pan less annoying if she was a boy.

I don't watch BB but Pan is just a God awful character, little kids in anime in general annoy me.

Honestly, I'm more concerned with how often the female characters in Dragon Ball are used just to make more characters by having babies during timeskips than I am their lack of involvement in the main story (though I do wish Videl and 18 had been used more properly past their introductions) or whether or not they talk about men when they meet up.

Why? Loving couples having children is a fact of life, the only one which seems odd is Vegeta and Bulma. Also it helps the DB cast seem more real and organic, not like other shounen where the main characters stay teenagers forever, it shows that time is indeed passing and characters are getting older.

Because this bullshit exists only as a excuse to go "but what about the mennnnnnn" and then gloat about how you totally showed those feminists, then continue sitting on your hands doing jack shit to help women's or men's causes.

Yes and I'm sure you've done loads to help women in 3rd world countries who get acid thrown on their face for trying to get an education, suffer genital mutilation and aren't allowed to vote, actually I'm going to take a wild geuss and say you haven't. Since women not having conversations in a 20 year old japanese kid's comic book is such a more pressing issue for women to deal with.

[Hades]

The "Bechdel Test" is a clear example of "first world problems", when people have it so good (READ: not getting shot at unlike in Ukraine) that they have plenty of free time to focus on trivial things like "toxic masculinity in dragonball".

[The Monkey King]

Pan can be annoying but her relationship with her grandfather and Giru are sweet.

When I watch Dragon Ball, I don't care about a young girl's relationship with here grandfather and an even more annoying waste of space robot, I want high octane OTT martial arts action with huge explosions and Pan never failed to get in the way of that.