What if 4Kids got DB?

[Flame Dragon]

That Freeza edit makes me cringe. Not only it's retarded but pointless. There was nothing offensive down there to hide, way to waste your budget and time guys.

Anyway, any serious company would just tell parents to get lost. Some edit here and there can be understable, but butchering the whole thing? Not only it's retarded, it's a waste of time and budget on the company, gets them bad PR, and even then it's totally counterproductive because you lose the hardcore audience, that will watch the show in the original in uncut format, while keeping the kids that would have watched the show anyway.

[Ringworm128]

Anyway, any serious company would just tell parents to get lost.

Um no, parents mostly dictate what their kids (aka the companies main demographic) watch. All it could take is some nut job parents group to start spreading crap and the soccer moms will blindly follow like sheep. Even worse if they took it to the news. One story on "how x is corrupting our youth" and a good chunk of parents will believe it. The whole Katy Perry on Seasame Street is the perfect example of parents over reacting to fairly tame stuff.

[Flame Dragon]

Anyway, any serious company would just tell parents to get lost.

Um no, parents mostly dictate what their kids watch. All it could take is some nut job parents group to start spreading crap and the soccer moms will blindly follow like sheep. Even worse if they took it to the news. One story on "how x is corrupting our youth" and a good chunk of parents will believe it.

That's a problem with the masses, not the company itself. It just doesn't seem right to me that a company's work should be dictated by someone that doesn't even know what they're talking about.

Besides that, parents only care for that little blood or cleavage coverup, i doubt they really give a shit about how much a show is turned into a mindless butchering of the original. Most parents would not care if the show had not kiddy voices or accents, modified plot to remove any semblance of seriousness etc. That's why 4Kids censorship is overkill.
When DBZ aired in my country, the only things removed were the word "death", some violent scenes and most of the blood(there was still some tho) but the show was basically the same both in plot and atmosphere and no one complained.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

To topic, we have Toonzai Kai.

All of these shows I think should also be added under the "Good" 4Kids dub category. And while YMMV on Yu-Gi-Oh, I think, for the most part it was a good dub. Same with 5D's.

The funny thing about Duel Monsters is that the more I learn about it, the more convinced I am that NAS did much more (if nothing else more critical) damage to the series with how they chose to adapt it from the manga than 4kids did in dubbing it.

One thing to consider is that the episodic format is probably where 4kid's writing is best suited; say, while they do not realize it, people who believe newer seasons of Pokemon are awful using the dub as their reference are not reacting solely to the storytelling rut or the cultural neutrality, but because PCUSA's by-and-large more faithful dub lacks 4kids's sense of humor in a series where it actually could do some good. Same with something like Kirby; if you really care that "Holy Nightmare" became "Nightmare Enterprises"...

[Valerius Dover]

To topic, we have Toonzai Kai.

All of these shows I think should also be added under the "Good" 4Kids dub category. And while YMMV on Yu-Gi-Oh, I think, for the most part it was a good dub. Same with 5D's.

The funny thing about Duel Monsters is that the more I learn about it, the more convinced I am that NAS did much more (if nothing else more critical) damage to the series with how they chose to adapt it from the manga than 4kids did in dubbing it.

One thing to consider is that the episodic format is probably where 4kid's writing is best suited; say, while they do not realize it, people who believe newer seasons of Pokemon are awful using the dub as their reference are not reacting solely to the storytelling rut or the cultural neutrality, but because PCUSA's by-and-large more faithful dub lacks 4kids's sense of humor in a series where it actually could do some good. Same with something like Kirby; if you really care that "Holy Nightmare" became "Nightmare Enterprises"...

I've seen people complain about the name changes in the Kirby dub as well. Honestly, that was more of a gag dub / parody than anything. And I enjoyed every minute of it!

Who would be the potential narrator of a 4Kids Dragon Ball.....?

[Ryuji-Otogi]

4Kids One Piece wasnt THAT edited.

Changing any reference of 'Marines' to 'Navy'? Replacing poison darts with suction cups? Re-colouring the contents of a glass to make it appear more like fruit juice?

The 4Kids changes went beyond censorship or creative localisation - they wanted a happy, fluffy pirate show for the American under 10's demographic, and the source material just wasn't suitable for it.

Yeah, 4K!Ds goes beyond censorship and takes unnecessary liberties with story, dialog, character names, etc. They cut out like 40 episodes worth of material in just the show's first 150 episodes. Just about all their dubs are bad, but they took One Piece to a whole different level.

I don't think DBZ would have been nearly as successful had 4K!Ds gotten it. They're great at marketing shows like Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh, but they wouldn't know what to do with DBZ. Even the oldschool edited DBZ dubs kept the violence and contact, though all the blood and stuff was taken out. If you're into YGO you might know that the show actually has some pretty mature subject matter, but a card battling anime is much easier to make suitable for a younger audience than a pure-fighting genre.

[Cure Dragon 255]

No, I meant ignore those (Then again I dont blame you, they are pretty hard to ignore) and you'll see it.

Stabbings remained on the show. Also fists to the face and so on. However you are still right they edited beyond what was necesary. For Example, Vortexx(Which is TWICE as strict as Fox ever was) allowed Batman's parents to get shot and killed.In front of him. On Saturday Mornings. A BIT toned down but still.

The Marine/Navy was stupid. However, changing wine IS required to air on SatAM and isnt unnecesary. At least to the censors.

[Puto]

The Marine/Navy was stupid.

Painting 'Marine' to 'Navy' was stupid. Referring to it as the Navy is not, because that's what the Japanese word kaigun means — note that the word you always see on the Navy guys in One Piece is always 'Marine', never 'Marines'. This is because 'Marine' is actually the French and German word for 'Navy' — the One Piece soldiers are NOT the Marine Corps. One thing fans don't tend to realise is that just because something's written in our alphabet doesn't necessarily mean it has to be English specifically.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I know but I liked the way Funimation handled the whole thing better. I mean not editing every single Marine sign they saw.

[hulkty]

They are the reason Americans think all anime is just children cartoons.
They are the reason anime is considered ESPECIALLY nerdy in America.
They are the reason One Piece was thought awful to Americans who haven't viewed the original uncut version.
They...I can go on for hours...
In short, I'd rather have no Eng Dub anime at all instead of 4Kids shit.

[Cure Dragon 255]

They are the reason One Piece flopped in Latin America too. And keep in mind we NEVER had a proper uncut One Piece dub.

[Michelle91]

The 4Kids changes went beyond censorship or creative localisation - they wanted a happy, fluffy pirate show for the American under 10's demographic, and the source material just wasn't suitable for it.

In Japan, One Piece is made for the under 10 demographic since One Piece is market towards kids from 3 - 10. One Piece is popular with kids in pre-school from what I've seen. In America, we have stricter rules on violence for kids shows. In Japan, they can allow blood and cursing while they can't here in the US. What's PG in Japan is PG-13 here. I also think One Piece never catch up here in the US because it was poorly marketed and it was overshadow by Naruto. Kids seem to enjoy Ninja's over Pirates in the US at the time. I also think 4kids dubbing DB would have done poorly since they would market it poorly. I never seen them market their shows that well other then Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh and TMNT.

[Super Sonic]

It's possible there could've been a dub theme better than the actual dub. While their One Piece theme wasn't one of them, their Shaman King one was and a lot of folks like the English Yu-Gi-Oh theme. And while I thought Magical Doremi was a little girls' cartoon that couldn't hold my interest, the theme song was cute and catchy. (Kinda applauded them for that show as figured it would be one many of their detractors wouldn't bash them for.) And everyone and their dog loved the first Pokemon album "2 B a Master" except the Ash/May and Ash/Dawn shippers hating on "Misty's Song".

[Blade]

The 4Kids changes went beyond censorship or creative localisation - they wanted a happy, fluffy pirate show for the American under 10's demographic, and the source material just wasn't suitable for it.

In Japan, One Piece is made for the under 10 demographic since One Piece is market towards kids from 3 - 10. One Piece is popular with kids in pre-school from what I've seen. In America, we have stricter rules on violence for kids shows. In Japan, they can allow blood and cursing while they can't here in the US. What's PG in Japan is PG-13 here. I also think One Piece never catch up here in the US because it was poorly marketed and it was overshadow by Naruto. Kids seem to enjoy Ninja's over Pirates in the US at the time. I also think 4kids dubbing DB would have done poorly since they would market it poorly. I never seen them market their shows that well other then Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh and TMNT.

I didn't mean that One Piece isn't aimed at or isn't suitable for that demographic in Japan, not at all - I was referring specifically to that demographic in America. You can't treat the Japanese Shonen demographic as if it's the same as its counterpart age group in America, because the cultural situation is completely different. I'll try and explain it to you as best I can without going into too much detail.

If you're going to make the comparison, you need to understand the cultural differences between the attitudes to fiction in Japan and America. In Japan, there's a culturally ingrained strict separation between fantasy and reality - so as a result there's far less censorship in fictional works that express things such as a violence or sexual innuendo. Furthermore, there's a distinct difference between the portrayal of violence and the portrayal of harm - whereby it's generally not considered taboo to depict someone being violently beaten so long as no real actual harm, such as character death or serious, lasting injury occurs. In cases where the latter is true, you'll notice in Anime that it's always addressed seriously and with a lot of emotional gravitas - even if the character involved is incredibly minor and has just been introduced. Shows like One Piece and Naruto get a lot of criticism from Western fans when it comes to their sentimental depiction of character death in flashbacks, even when the character in question has only just been introduced and the viewer has yet to form any attachment to them - but that simply comes with the territory as to how the subject is handled culturally in Japan.

In America, on the other hand - such a strict separation doesn't exist, and young people especially identify much more strongly with things that are depicted in fiction - especially when it comes to heroic figures. There's the commonality of 'monkey-see, monkey-do' mimicry, whereby young individuals sometimes identify so strongly with fictional characters that they innately map fictional events into their everyday lives as if they were real.

When it comes to imported Japanese fiction, even when it's aimed at the same sort of age range in America as it is in Japan, there's a colossal mismatch due to the cultural incompatibility of the two situations. The most often used example is that of Power Rangers, which when first released in America created a great deal of controversy due its depiction of violence and how young people, who were much more easily influenced, being less able to separate fantasy and reality than in Japan, and as such were copying the behavior seen on screen. Even surreal, hammed-up cartoon violence such as that which is depicted in shows like Tom and Jerry has proven to be incredibly controversial, as regardless of how unrealistically the acts of violence are depicted, the younger demographic are unable to completely detach it from reality, and mimicry occurs.

As a result, you'll find that any Shonen show originally aimed at young audiences in Japan will normally be marketed, and deemed most suitable, for Teenagers in America. I mean, sticking to the One Piece example - if you want to watch uncut One Piece in America these days, you'll find it airing late at night on Adult Swim. This is a show that airs on Sunday mornings in Japan, that in America, is deemed so unsuitable in its raw form for broadcast that it has to be aired in a mature-audience time slot. That's not the show that 4Kids wanted.

It's interesting, actually - as Dragonball Z is an interesting exception, where death and serious injury are treat a little bit more frivolously. This is acceptable because, as we know, death isn't necessarily a permanent arrangement in the Dragon-World, with the existence of both an eternal afterlife and more than one avenue of resurrection. In Dragonball, however, before it has been established that life can be restored, the way in which the deaths of Krillin, Roshi and Chiaotzu, are depicted is far more serious, dark and in-line with Japanese cultural attitudes towards it - similar to how it is depicted in the likes of One Piece and Naruto.

[Flame Dragon]

So wait, you mean that American kids are dumber than Japanese ones?

I mean, if Japanese kids don't mimic what happens in fiction, it just means Japanese parents are better at raising kids.
I think if American kids were taught to discern reality and fiction like in Japan, that they would get it.

So in short, Japan parents and school system is much better, because i don't believe that American kids are stupid and can't understand reality, it's just bad parenting and bad education that doesn't strive to teach.

[Blade]

So wait, you mean that American kids are dumber than Japanese ones?

No. That's not what I said at all.

Maybe you're misunderstanding - I'm not saying that American kids think everything they see on TV is real, not at all - I don't believe for a second that kids watching Superman believe that the guy is really out there! What I'm saying is that American children tend to identify with what they see so strongly that they map world views or various aspects of behavior that are influenced from the fictional work into real life more readily than their Japanese counterparts.

It's not even just kids either, like I said - it's a cultural difference across the board. For example, there are cases where Breaking Bad fans have tried to become real-world meth manufacturers. No joke.

I mean, if Japanese kids don't mimic what happens in fiction, it just means Japanese parents are better at raising kids.
I think if American kids were taught to discern reality and fiction like in Japan, that they would get it.

I'm not saying that Japanese kids don't identify with fictional characters, what I'm saying is that, on the whole, Japanese society treats fiction totally differently. It's not even just how fictional works are perceived either, acting and voice acting performances are delivered in a totally different fashion from everyday conversation - whereas in America there tends to be a greater focus on making things believable or natural.

So in short, Japan parents and school system is much better, because i don't believe that American kids are stupid and can't understand reality, it's just bad parenting and bad education that doesn't strive to teach.

Your conclusions are pretty flawed. We're talking about deeply ingrained socio-cultural nuances here that delicately shape how things are perceived within a society as a whole, it's not as simple as bad education or lax parenting.

[penguintruth]

It pretty much would have been exactly the same as how we got DBZ from Funimation, only no eventual "uncut" version.

Guys, what 4Kids did to One Piece was only by a few degrees worse than what Funimation did to DBZ. Don't delude yourselves into thinking otherwise. They had just as little respect for the show. The only big difference is that nobody grew up watching the 4Kids dub of One Piece on television after school when there wasn't anywhere else to get anime. If Funimation did to ANY OTHER F***ING SHOW what they did to DBZ, heads would roll, make no mistake. Even if they did to any other show what they did to the original DB TV series, people would be outraged, and that dub is at least salvageable.

(Forgive the extra rage, I've been Googling "best and worst anime dubs" for a project and people constantly list DBZ as one of the "best" in the same breath as condemning dubs that are just as bad or much better.)

[Gonstead]

The only big difference is that nobody grew up watching the 4Kids dub of One Piece on television after school when there wasn't anywhere else to get anime.

*cough*

One just replied to you who did just that.

I've noticed this a lot when you post regarding these certain subject matters and frankly, it's starting to piss me off slightly. You keep proclaiming that "everyone was able to get and view fansubbed VHS tapes in those days", "anybody who had internet would be able to look up *insert* about DBZ here" or anything even vaguely similar.

Guess what? Not everybody lived according to how you naively think everybody grew up similar to you.

[Blade]

The only big difference is that nobody grew up watching the 4Kids dub of One Piece on television after school when there wasn't anywhere else to get anime.

*cough*

One just replied to you who did just that.

I've noticed this a lot when you post regarding these certain subject matters and frankly, it's starting to piss me off slightly. You keep proclaiming that "everyone was able to get and view fansubbed VHS tapes in those days", "anybody who had internet would be able to look up *insert* about DBZ here" or anything even vaguely similar.

Guess what? Not everybody lived according to how you naively think everybody grew up similar to you.

I wouldn't let it bother you so much. Everyone knows that the guy has a serious chip on his shoulder when it comes to Funimation's original dub of Z, and is desperate to take any chance he can get to wax un-lyrical about it.

He's just part of the furniture here, like an old man sitting in the corner of a retirement home rambling about the evils of communism all day.

[The Monkey King]

It pretty much would have been exactly the same as how we got DBZ from Funimation, only no eventual "uncut" version.

Guys, what 4Kids did to One Piece was only by a few degrees worse than what Funimation did to DBZ. Don't delude yourselves into thinking otherwise. They had just as little respect for the show. The only big difference is that nobody grew up watching the 4Kids dub of One Piece on television after school when there wasn't anywhere else to get anime. If Funimation did to ANY OTHER F***ING SHOW what they did to DBZ, heads would roll, make no mistake. Even if they did to any other show what they did to the original DB TV series, people would be outraged, and that dub is at least salvageable.

(Forgive the extra rage, I've been Googling "best and worst anime dubs" for a project and people constantly list DBZ as one of the "best" in the same breath as condemning dubs that are just as bad or much better.)

I watched both the Funimation dub of DBZ and the 4Kids dub of One Piece growing up as a kid with no other access to anime.
Looking back the Funimation dub of DBZ is far, far, faaaaaaaar superiour to the 4kids dub of One Piece.
All of the characters (bar Freeza) had voices that suited them, unlike One Piece where dubbed Luffy had one of the most annoying voices of all time and don't even get me started on Sanji.
Funimation didn't skip entire arcs of the canon story line
The violence and some blood were kept in tact, unlike in the 4kids dub of One Piece where if a guy with a buzzsaw with a hand punches you your clothes bearly get scratched.
No people were getting threatened shot with pop guns, water pistols and automatic hammer springs in Funimation's DBZ dub.
Honestly watch the dub of the History of Trunks and attempt to find even one small clip of the same level of dubbing quality in 4kid's One Piece dub.

To say that 4kids was only 'a few degrees worse' than Funimation's dub borderlines on insanity and denial as far as I'm concerned.