Watching DB series Japanese (1st time) COMPLETE

[Ajay]

You seem to think we're saying you can't understand the show without watching it from the beginning. Most of us started with Z because it was the show that was the most visible and easily accessible, so yes, we did start with Z and it didn't affect our ability to understand the story. That isn't at all what we are saying to you and the original poster.

It's not at issue that you get enough by watching DBZ, but there's no good reason to start with Z. Why that point, and explain what happens in DBZ, or why not just show her the whole thing from the beginning? Why not show that person the better show, unless you think DBZ is better?

My argument has been that it's viable not that it's better or even a good way to view it. It's just a perfectly feasible way to rewatch the series if you've seen some DB before and/or know the plot of it. I hope you don't think I'm trying to imply that a newcomer should skip DB and start with Z. Having zero context at all would suck in the long run. Perhaps our wires are crossed on that one?

Regarding my girlfriend, it was her choice to start with Kai, not mine. She was aware of Dragon Ball and knew the major plot points. She just had limited time due to university work and wanted to watch a 98 episode show instead of a 153 episode one. She's going back to Dragon Ball very shortly and is pretty damn excited since she absolutely adores Nozawa's kid voices. Would I have preferred her to start with Dragon Ball and make her way through the series normally? Yeah, absolutely but I'm not going to force her into something if I personally feel she'll get just as much enjoyment doing it her way.

As you said, near enough all of us experienced it in this order, it's not a particularly damaging way of going about things.

Regarding your last question; yeah, I do enjoy the Z portion more since I'm a real sucker for Vegeta. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely adore Dragon Ball - its creativity and feeling of adventure is totally unrivaled and Z doesn't come close to matching it. That said, I have more of a taste for drama than I do for comedy so Z is definitely where my heart lies.

But yeah, I hope that clears things up? Sorry for the 'blah blah' comment, I'm running on little sleep and I tend to lose patience pretty easily at the best of times. Poor excuse but it is what it is, sorry about that.

I don't think our opinions really differ that much overall, it seems. I guess you just feel far more strongly about Dragon Ball's significance with the Z portion of the series?

[ABED]

My argument has been that it's viable

Who was arguing that it wasn't?

I do think our wires are crossed, and thanks for the polite response, I understand being short with people sometimes. For anyone outside this that might think "it's the pot calling the kettle black", I'm not saying I've never done it, I'm far from perfect, but I think instead of merely pointing out hypocrisy, it's best to try and better ourselves. For my part, I'm trying better to convey tone in my writing so people can understand how I mean things, as well as cutting down on sarcasm.

As to the point about your girlfriend, I can understand the point about being strapped for time.

I do feel more strongly about the DB portion of the series. I think it's overall more enjoyable, and overlooked. For crying outloud, even GT got better ratings in the states than DB. It's like FUNi treats it like the redheaded step child.

[Ajay]

Who was arguing that it wasn't?

It felt like my point was being shot down over and over so that's the impression I got from yourself and others with references to Star Wars and all that. Clearly that wasn't the case then! Definitely a case of wires being crossed. I just felt like my point was being misunderstood or that my responses about DB and Z's differences were being misconstrued as me implying DB and Z were separate things.

I think we're all clear on that now though!

I do feel more strongly about the DB portion of the series. I think it's overall more enjoyable, and overlooked. For crying outloud, even GT got better ratings in the states than DB. It's like FUNi treats it like the redheaded step child.

Yeah, that's...upsetting. I mean, I don't hate GT, I think its last arc is pretty damn good but damn, it's not even on the same scale as Dragon Ball. I think that's the strongest argument for not having someone 100% new to the series start with Z. They end up with this very warped sense of what Dragon Ball actually is. More Super Saiyans + explosions = quality, right?!

[Basaku]

I grew up on French-dubbed version so it took a bit to get used to original Jap voices, but I always prefer the original version of any show/movie I wanna watch

[ABED]

If I understood everyone correctly, we get that you can watch DBZ first, it's just not optimal. The point we made by using Star Wars was that watching from episode 1 isn't the best way to watch the movies and we were saying that DB isn't written the same way those 6 were. Lucas wrote 4-6 (or a version, anyway) knowing a version of the backstory so he knew what tell the audience to let them understand the story but not give away the surprises. 1-3 were written and marketed with the idea that people knew the original trilogy.

[kei17]

I FULLY agree with ABED here. Treating the "Z" portion as a separate thing is wrong and it's way better to start watching/reading from the beginning. It's still the damn same series with the same characters and just one additional letter to the title, and it doesn't even have a different title in the original manga. You can still enjoy the series by starting watching/reading halfway, but starting with the Saiyan arc is nothing different than beginning by the Android or Buu arc. Sure, you can catch up with the story from any points, but there are events that become less enjoyable and moving that way.

[Valerius Dover]

I FULLY agree with ABED here. Treating the "Z" portion as a separate thing is wrong and it's way better to start watching/reading from the beginning. It's still the damn same series with the same characters and just one additional letter to the title, and it doesn't even have a different title in the original manga. You can still enjoy the series by starting watching/reading halfway, but starting with the Saiyan arc is nothing different than beginning by the Android or Buu arc. Sure, you can catch up with the story from any points, but there are events that become less enjoyable and moving that way.

......Can I come out now?

This was what I was trying to say, actually. I kind of see it as one long thing. (And to know the JP version even reuses music reinforces this). Still, didn't mean for this to turn into an all out argument. I take the blame for this one.
Anyway, great wording. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Ajay]

But ABED and I just determined that we're essentially saying the same thing? I don't understand. You're agreeing with both of us. We both agreed that it's best to start from the beginning just with slightly different opinions on the severity of the effect of only knowing parts of what came before.

This was never about a total newcomers perspective which seems to be how you're treating it. I'm confused. What's there to disagree with me about? I've not debated the fact that the manga is one continuous story whatsoever. I've not said a newcomer should start at Z. I made one point that it's possible to do so and, if you have a vague memory of Dragon Ball, you're free to revisit the series in whatever order possible.

Can we stop pretending I'm saying anything to the contrary. It's pretty tiring now.

[khalildh]

No offense, but I seriously can't believe there are people who actually skip the first series. It's like skipping A New Hope and going on to The Empire Strikes Back. Dragon Ball Z Episode 1 might as well be Dragon Ball Episode 154. The only thing separating the two is a name. As far as I'm concerned, it's one long series. I mean, we don't have people skipping to Episode 517 of One Piece, now, do we?

I skipped to Episode 108 of Bleach...

[kei17]

By the time the Freeza arc is underway, they barely use any original-DB BGM anymore, they've built up enough of a library of newer compositions from the Saiyan arc and the 3 DBZ movies under their belt.

Not really true. They continued constantly using the tracks from the original DB until the end of the Freeza arc.

But ABED and I just determined that we're essentially saying the same thing? I don't understand. You're agreeing with both of us. We both agreed that it's best to start from the beginning just with slightly different opinions on the severity of the effect of only knowing parts of what came before.

This was never about a total newcomers perspective which seems to be how you're treating it. I'm confused. What's there to disagree with me about? I've not debated the fact that the manga is one continuous story whatsoever. I've not said a newcomer should start at Z. I made one point that it's possible to do so and, if you have a vague memory of Dragon Ball, you're free to revisit the series in whatever order possible.

Can we stop pretending I'm saying anything to the contrary. It's pretty tiring now.

My post wasn't directed at you specifically, though. I was just talking about things in general. I agreed to his thoughts toward the importance and role of the first portion of the series. I should have been more specific anyway. My bad on this.

[theoriginalbilis]

By the time the Freeza arc is underway, they barely use any original-DB BGM anymore, they've built up enough of a library of newer compositions from the Saiyan arc and the 3 DBZ movies under their belt.

Not really true. They continued constantly using the tracks from the original DB until the end of the Freeza arc.

My mistake. I must've mistaken it for the Android/Cell arcs, where I distinctly remember a lot more new compositions as well as movie BGM.

[Valerius Dover]

By the time the Freeza arc is underway, they barely use any original-DB BGM anymore, they've built up enough of a library of newer compositions from the Saiyan arc and the 3 DBZ movies under their belt.

Not really true. They continued constantly using the tracks from the original DB until the end of the Freeza arc.

My mistake. I must've mistaken it for the Android/Cell arcs, where I distinctly remember a lot more new compositions as well as movie BGM.

They had new compositions for the Cell arc? I may not have seen DBZ with the original score, but I know how the M-Number system works. I was under the impression that there weren't any new tracks specifically made for the series again until the Buu arc. Correct me if I am wrong.

[kei17]

My mistake. I must've mistaken it for the Android/Cell arcs, where I distinctly remember a lot more new compositions as well as movie BGM.

They had new compositions for the Cell arc? I may not have seen DBZ with the original score, but I know how the M-Number system works. I was under the impression that there weren't any new tracks specifically made for the series again until the Buu arc. Correct me if I am wrong.

You're right. There were no new tracks composed for the Android/Cell arc. The movie 4 score was introduced to the TV series around the end of the battle between Goku and Freeza, and they began using the movie 5 score in the Garlic Jr. arc. The original DB tracks had been still used occasionally after that, but it almost disappeared (from serious moments at least) in the middle of the Android/Cell arc when the movie 6 score was introduced.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But it's common knowledge that Vader is luke's father.

Only if you are familiar with Star Wars.

That reveal in Empire already doesn't have the same resonance when it was first came out, so why would it be a huge shocker that Anakin turns to the dark side, especially since everything is moving in that direction? The prequels are constantly making call backs that work only if you know what came before. Another plot twist that doesn't work nearly as well if you watch the prequels first is Luke and Leia being siblings. The prequels aren't designed to make you wonder what's going to happen, it's to answer how a sweet innocent kid could become a Sith Lord, they aren't predicated on a bunch of plot twists.

The plot-twist of Vader, Luke, and Leia being a family isn't as big as seeing the main character growing from a sweet little boy to a good man, and then watching that good man betraying everyone and killing children, ending up to a villain.

And here I always thought Anakin turning the dark side in the prequels was supposed to be presented as a tragedy, ie. something you already knew about with the emotion coming from watching the unavoidable play out. It was certainly marketed to that audience, with posters of Darth Vader everywhere. Hell, even Episode I's teaser posters had Darth Vader in Anakin's shadow. Clearly meant to be viewed by people who'd already seen the originals... just like prequels, by definition, are supposed to do.

Yeah, it was marketed like this back then, because who would wait for Ep. II & III to be released, and then watch Ep. IV-VI for the first time?

Anyway, Dragon Ball. I don't have anything else to add, I believe that starting from the beginning is the best way, but starting with DBZ or Kai instead isn't a bad choice, because they explain the past events that are relevant, so it doesn't leave the newcomers with questions. As for the inclusion of Bardock in the beginning of Kai, I don't think there is an issue, because you learn that Goku is an alien in the same episode, and it's not even a big plot-twist to the newcomers anyway, to which Kai is aimed to.

[VegettoEX]

But it's common knowledge that Vader is luke's father.

Only if you are familiar with Star Wars.

I'm not familiar with Star Wars. This bit of knowledge is common knowledge that has permeated to every inch of our culture in the United States. It's parodied to the point of not even being funny anymore, and is probably known by people who get the reference without actually "getting" the reference.

Yes. Everyone knows that Vader is Luke's father.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'm not familiar with Star Wars. This bit of knowledge is common knowledge that has permeated to every inch of our culture in the United States. It's parodied to the point of not even being funny anymore, and is probably known by people who get the reference without actually "getting" the reference.

Yes. Everyone knows that Vader is Luke's father.

Well, I'm not living in US. And from my personal experience, I had no idea about anything in Star Wars before watching them, and of all the people that I personally know, it's the same case for them as well. So, this may apply to US, or other countries, but this doesn't apply to the whole world. So no, not everyone knows that Vader is Luke's father.

[ABED]

Well, you're in the minority because so many films and TV shows have referenced "Luke, I am your father!" (even though the line is "No, I am your father!" I don't know how anyone could not know.

Yeah, it was marketed like this back then, because who would wait for Ep. II & III to be released, and then watch Ep. IV-VI for the first time?

That's not why.

The bardock at the beginning is weird because it has no reason to be there. The payoff isn't until the Freeza arc, which is many episodes later.

[Herms]

At this point it's probably best to just set up a separate thread for discussing the relative merits and demerits of starting with Z, and how different/not different Z is from DB and all that jazz, and leave this thread for discussing DarkPrince_92 watching the show subtitled.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Well, you're in the minority because so many films and TV shows have referenced "Luke, I am your father!" (even though the line is "No, I am your father!" I don't know how anyone could not know.

I may had been a minority if I lived in US, but I don't live in US. Star Wars may be so extremely popular in US and many other countries, but it's not as popular in Greece. Everyone knows what Star Wars is, and they can recognize iconic figures like Vader, Yoda, Jedi, or Stormtroopers that they are from Star Wars, but many of them don't even know their names.

And even if a movie throws a reference, it doesn't mean you always know that it's a reference.

That's not why.

Then why? It was marketed for those who had seen the Original Trilogy.

The bardock at the beginning is weird because it has no reason to be there. The payoff isn't until the Freeza arc, which is many episodes later.

Bardock is there because they wanted to recap Goku's life from birth to adulthood.

[ABED]

The bardock at the beginning is weird because it has no reason to be there. The payoff isn't until the Freeza arc, which is many episodes later.

Bardock is there because they wanted to recap Goku's life from birth to adulthood.

But that moment has no bearing since Bardock's death has nothing to do with Goku. It makes far more sense to flashback to that moment around the Freeza fight.

For the original poster, will you be watching the movies subbed as well?