Buu in Fukkatsu no F

[RandomGuy96]

Nope. Beerus has nothing to do with this. Golden Freeza, while at a level so far below SSGSS Goku that he couldn't even budge him with a punch to the face, is still said to be much, much stronger than base Vegeta. It's as clear cut as can be; the difference between base Goku and SSGSS Goku is huge, much bigger than what it was shown to be in the last movie.

Huh? Golden Freeza was above SSGSS Goku from what we saw. So I don't see how you can say that. Both Goku and Vegeta agreed that while Golden Freeza may have been stronger than them that he forgot to take into account the effects of the transformation. That was the defining factor of the fight. You could see that Golden Freeza had the advantage for the beginning of the fight. And SSGSS being 25% better than base would be much, much stronger than base considering 25% is all it takes for x character to destroy y character with only a 25% difference.

When he said that Vegeta couldn't beat him, Golden Freeza was so weakened that he couldn't hurt a worn out SSGSS Goku with a clean punch to the face. Base Vegeta was fresh. So, effectively, Goku's base form is far below a guy who is far below his SSGSS form, which itself wasn't at full power at the time.

[Gonstead]

When he said that Vegeta couldn't beat him, Golden Freeza was so weakened that he couldn't hurt a worn out SSGSS Goku with a clean punch to the face. Base Vegeta was fresh. So, effectively, Goku's base form is far below a guy who is far below his SSGSS form, which itself wasn't at full power at the time.

He wasn't weakened though. Having actually seen this movie (not once, but twice), the ENTIRE point was that Golden Freeza was on par, if not stronger, but his lack of compensating for the stamina drain is what did him in.

Don't speak about things you have admitted to have never watched.

[Zephyr]

Now, not that this necessarily counts for anything, but having actually seen the film (twice), the impression that greatly stood out to me, was the one that Golden Freeza was at least on par (if not greater than) with SSGSS Goku/Vegeta, barring the stamina issue. Goku makes it a huge point to essentially say that if not for the stamina drain, he might be in trouble (that is, if I'm remembering correctly), and Vegeta even chimes in to comment on the shortcomings that result from Freeza being too excited to get revenge, to actually bother stopping said stamina drain.

Not entirely sure if you've been taking that into account or not (you very well could have been and I've just not been noticing, so my my apologies if this is the case), but I don't see that as being quite as relevant to your guys' calculations and speculation as I feel it should be.

[RandomGuy96]

When he said that Vegeta couldn't beat him, Golden Freeza was so weakened that he couldn't hurt a worn out SSGSS Goku with a clean punch to the face. Base Vegeta was fresh. So, effectively, Goku's base form is far below a guy who is far below his SSGSS form, which itself wasn't at full power at the time.

He wasn't weakened though. Having actually seen this movie (not once, but twice), the ENTIRE point was that Golden Freeza was on par, if not stronger, but his lack of compensating for the stamina drain is what did him in.

Freeza couldn't hurt SSGSS Goku with a clean punch to the face by the end of the fight. True or false?

[Gonstead]

When he said that Vegeta couldn't beat him, Golden Freeza was so weakened that he couldn't hurt a worn out SSGSS Goku with a clean punch to the face. Base Vegeta was fresh. So, effectively, Goku's base form is far below a guy who is far below his SSGSS form, which itself wasn't at full power at the time.

He wasn't weakened though. Having actually seen this movie (not once, but twice), the ENTIRE point was that Golden Freeza was on par, if not stronger, but his lack of compensating for the stamina drain is what did him in.

Freeza couldn't hurt SSGSS Goku with a clean punch to the face by the end of the fight. True or false?

If you had actually properly read my post (And actually seen the movie), you wouldn't have needed to ask that.

[KentalSSJ6]

When he said that Vegeta couldn't beat him, Golden Freeza was so weakened that he couldn't hurt a worn out SSGSS Goku with a clean punch to the face. Base Vegeta was fresh. So, effectively, Goku's base form is far below a guy who is far below his SSGSS form, which itself wasn't at full power at the time.

He wasn't weakened though. Having actually seen this movie (not once, but twice), the ENTIRE point was that Golden Freeza was on par, if not stronger, but his lack of compensating for the stamina drain is what did him in.

Freeza couldn't hurt SSGSS Goku with a clean punch to the face by the end of the fight. True or false?

You are blatantly ignoring the flaws in your argument that other have pointed out. True or false?

[RandomGuy96]

You didn't answer. Freeza punched Goku in the face and he was unfazed. True or false?

You are blatantly ignoring the flaws in your argument that other have pointed out.

What flaws would those be? If Freeza wasn't able to hurt Goku by the end of the fight, how was he not weaker than he was at the beginning of the fight?

[Zephyr]

Yes, Freeza (who had a significant stamina drain) failed to harm SSGSS Goku (who notably did not have a significant stamina drain) by the end of a fight.

However, if we're taking just that, we're not accounting for the hype that Goku and Vegeta gave to the Golden Freeza's actual power in and of itself, barring tertiary nerfing factors. You seem to be treating these tertiary nerfing actors as if they're part of the form in and of itself, when in fact they are not.

Seriously dude, just watch the movie before trying to comment on it. You'll save a thousand headaches and errors in communication.

[RandomGuy96]

Yes, Freeza (who had a significant stamina drain) failed to harm SSGSS Goku (who notably did not have a significant stamina drain) by the end of a fight.

However, if we're taking just that, we're not accounting for the hype that Goku and Vegeta gave to the Golden Freeza's actual power in and of itself, barring tertiary nerfing factors. You seem to be treating these tertiary nerfing actors as if they're part of the form in and of itself, when in fact they are not.

And did he suddenly jump back to full power when he said base Vegeta had no chance against him? Because I'm still not seeing how this is relevant to what I said. I read the summary, I know what happened. I'm saying that, since he was still far above base Vegeta even after exhausting himself against Goku, there must be a wide gap between base and SSGSS. That, and Freeza laughing at the idea of base Vegeta beating him, before unleashing several dozen attacks on SSGSS Vegeta without even slightly harming him.

[Zephyr]

I've also noticed a continued reference to Freeza shooting a "full power" blast at Krillin, which was deflected by Vegeta, in an attempt to widen the supposed gap between base Vegeta and Golden Freeza.

The two times I've actually watched the film, I've not once noticed a single thing that necessitated that Freeza's full power went into that blast aimed at Krillin. Am I missing something here?

[KentalSSJ6]

You didn't answer. Freeza punched Goku in the face and he was unfazed. True or false?

You are blatantly ignoring the flaws in your argument that other have pointed out.

What flaws would those be? If Freeza wasn't able to hurt Goku by the end of the fight, how was he not weaker than he was at the beginning of the fight?

The fact that Goku flat out says at the rate* their fight was going, he wasnt going to win. Its then that the weakness of Freeza's form is pointed out and his strength starts dropping to the point where he cant really hurt Goku anymore. If he can get Goku to admit to himself that he wasnt going to win at the current rate of the fight, you can bet he hurt Goku. I seriously dont see how you can not see that blatant bit of information unless you are willingly ignoring it.

[Gonstead]

I read the summary, I know what happened.

Reading a summary of a movie and actually watching it are two different things that have no common ground between them. Plus, without having watched the movie, you can't know if the summary is actually correct.

[KentalSSJ6]

I read the summary, I know what happened.

Reading a summary of a movie and actually watching it are two different things that have no common ground between them. Plus, without having watched the movie, you can't know if the summary is actually correct.

No you clearly did not read the summary. If you did, we wouldnt be having this headache inducing demonstration of stubbornness.

[RandomGuy96]

You didn't answer. Freeza punched Goku in the face and he was unfazed. True or false?

You are blatantly ignoring the flaws in your argument that other have pointed out.

What flaws would those be? If Freeza wasn't able to hurt Goku by the end of the fight, how was he not weaker than he was at the beginning of the fight?

The fact that Goku flat out says at the rate* their fight was going, he wasnt going to win. Its then that the weakness of Freeza's form is pointed out and his strength starts dropping to the point where he cant really hurt Goku anymore. If he can get Goku to admit to himself that he wasnt going to win at the current rate of the fight, you can bet he hurt Goku. I seriously dont see how you can not see that blatant bit of information unless you are willingly ignoring it.

Again, how is this relevant? I'm talking about the Freeza who had worn himself out to the point that he couldn't hurt Goku anymore, despite starting out as stronger than him. That's the Freeza that said he was still way above base Vegeta, hence why I think there's a rather huge gap between base and SSGSS.

I read the summary, I know what happened.

Reading a summary of a movie and actually watching it are two different things that have no common ground between them. Plus, without having watched the movie, you can't know if the summary is actually correct.

Nonsense. For the purposes of this thread, I have all the information I need. No one has actually pointed out any information that I didn't already know from reading the summary.

It's a Kanzenshuu summary. I trust them as a source... plus, it matches the few clips I've watched.

I've also noticed a continued reference to Freeza shooting a "full power" blast at Krillin, which was deflected by Vegeta, in an attempt to widen the supposed gap between base Vegeta and Golden Freeza.

Wait. What? Wouldn't saying that the blast was his full power be an attempt to shrink the gap?

[Zephyr]

I read the summary, I know what happened.

Reading a summary of a movie and actually watching it are two different things that have no common ground between them.

Agreed. I had plenty of preconceptions regarding the film, after having seen camrips and having read detailed plot synopses. After actually seeing the film, many things were seen in the actually intended context, and thus made more clear. At least regarding "implications" and the like that people like to extrapolate metric tons of information from.

You'd think if you're going to try and make the most clear and logical extrapolations from a product, you'd actually bother seeing the product via the intended means, so you'd get the full context. As it stands right now, it's incredibly difficult to even have a conversation about it.

[dbgtFO]

I can't believe you guys actually had a debate about this for ½ a page, when RandomGuy's point was clear from the get-go.

1) Golden Freeza started out stronger than SSGSS Goku & Vegeta.
2) His power then went down, due to his stamina issues to such an extent, that his punch now didn't do anything to SSGSS Goku.
3) But he's still confident that Base Vegeta can't do a thing to him, implying a huge gap between base form and SSGSS, simplified:

base Vegeta/Goku < Golden Freeza(exhausted) < SSGSS Vegeta/Goku < Golden Freeza.

Not hard to understand.

[Gonstead]

I read the summary, I know what happened.

Reading a summary of a movie and actually watching it are two different things that have no common ground between them. Plus, without having watched the movie, you can't know if the summary is actually correct.

Nonsense. For the purposes of this thread, I have all the information I need. No one has actually pointed out any information that I didn't already know from reading the summary.
It's a Kanzenshuu summary. I trust them as a source... plus, it matches the few clips I've watched.

Just because you read a summary and watch a small tiny clip or two, it still does not mean you are getting the full experience of actually watched the content. You cannot judge an actor's performance, the sound design, art, animation, character interaction, writing, direction, story and music just to name a few.

[RandomGuy96]

Just because you read a summary and watch a small tiny clip or two, it still does not mean you are getting the full experience of actually watched the content. You cannot judge an actor's performance, the sound design, art, animation, character interaction, writing, direction, story and music just to name a few.

What the hell does this have to do with how much of a boost SSGSS is, or how strong 1st form Freeza is?

I can't believe you guys actually had a debate about this for ½ a page, when RandomGuy's point was clear from the get-go.

1) Golden Freeza started out stronger than SSGSS Goku & Vegeta.
2) His power then went down, due to his stamina issues to such an extent, that his punch now didn't do anything to SSGSS Goku.
3) But he's still confident that Base Vegeta can't do a thing to him, implying a huge gap between base form and SSGSS, simplified:

base Vegeta/Goku < Golden Freeza(exhausted) < SSGSS Vegeta/Goku < Golden Freeza.

Not hard to understand.

Yes, thank you. I seriously don't know what the confusion was about.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I feel it's fairly pointless to try and use Freeza and Vegeta's little exchange as a method to extract most the powers being discussed anyway, as Freeza probably has no idea how strong Vegeta is.

--Freeza can't sense ki
--Freeza didn't have a scouter
--Goku and Vegeta weren't on Earth to be read beforehand anyway
--Characters are generally suppressed to some level when not fighting directly
--Freeza didn't know Vegeta was a Super Saiyan, let alone SSGSS too

Hell, maybe Freeza thought Vegeta was on par with Gohan's base in the film.

It also doesn't help that Freeza's true/fourth form didn't rival Goku's "base" during their fight. We likely weren't even seeing Goku go all out, as he barely even trying and still didn't take a single hit. The max of what he was capable of in that state could be much closer to Golden Freeza than we assume because of what he was able to display in the battle.

[RandomGuy96]

I feel it's fairly pointless to try and use Freeza and Vegeta's little exchange as a method to extract most the powers being discussed anyway, as Freeza probably has no idea how strong Vegeta is.

--Freeza can't sense ki
--Freeza didn't have a scouter
--Goku and Vegeta weren't on Earth to be read beforehand anyway
--Characters are generally suppressed to some level when not fighting directly
--Freeza didn't know Vegeta was a Super Saiyan, let alone SSGSS too

Hell, maybe Freeza thought Vegeta was on par with Gohan's base in the film.

It also doesn't help that Freeza's true/fourth form didn't rival Goku's "base" during their fight. We likely weren't even seeing Goku go all out, as he barely even trying and still didn't take a single hit. The max of what he was capable of in that state could be much closer to Golden Freeza than we assume because of what he was able to display in the battle.

--It's not confirmed if he can or can't. Him abandoning the scouter he used on Namek, despite the rest of his gang wearing them, seems to imply he can.
--Freeza fought base Goku and saw him fight base Vegeta, he should know roughly how strong he is.
--Vegeta's response is transform and then say "See, I can also become a Super Saiyan", rather than contradict him, implying that Freeza's estimate was correct.