Is Cell a Super Saiyan?

[Sayo-chan]

トランクスという小僧の細胞も入手してもよかつたのだがサイヤ人はもう充分たつた...
That kid Trunks' cells may have also been obtained, but the Saiyan standing was already sufficient...

May have been obtained, but it doesn't say from where. I know there's an image of Freeza getting sliced there and all that, but it's an old image taken from an earlier chapter. Then later in chapter 364, p. 4., Cell explains Goku shouldn't be alive, which reasonably means Goku died of illness in Cell's time.

It does, by showing us the location in the panel. It's from another chapter because it's flashing back to that point in time. Occam's razor tells us the least amount of assumptions leads to the most probable answer. That answer is Trunks clearly being the one that killed Freeza. This is also how Toei chose to interpret the dialogue, because it's pretty straightforward. There's nothing to suggest otherwise. Goku died, but that isn't mutually exclusive to Trunks being the one to kill Freeza. They could've lost the medication, it could've failed, who knows. It doesn't matter, it's not relevant.

[LuckyCat]

Goku died, but that isn't mutually exclusive to Trunks being the one to kill Freeza. They could've lost the medication, it could've failed, who knows. It doesn't matter, it's not relevant.

You may feel it's not relevant, but I don't think the stock images are relevant. That's where we disagree. Daizenshuu 7 favors Goku dying of illness in Cell's time based on that chapter.

Back on topic, we all agree Super Saiyan was known by the spy robots and Cell could be capable of it.

[Doctor.]

How about we agree Trunks killed Freeza but Goku still died from the heart disease somehow in Cell's timeline?

[Sayo-chan]

Goku died, but that isn't mutually exclusive to Trunks being the one to kill Freeza. They could've lost the medication, it could've failed, who knows. It doesn't matter, it's not relevant.

You may feel it's not relevant, but I don't think the stock images are relevant. That's where we disagree. Daizenshuu 7 favors Goku dying of illness in Cell's time based on that chapter.

Back on topic, we all agree Super Saiyan was known by the spy robots and Cell could be capable of it.

There'd be no reason to include the images if otherwise. Occam's razor suggests you're wrong, so I don't buy your argument. Goku dying in Cell's timeline is an undisputed fact, but again, is not mutually exclusive to Trunks killing Freeza, plothole or not.

How about we agree Trunks killed Freeza but Goku still died from the heart disease somehow in Cell's timeline?

This is what I stated, because all evidence points toward this.

[LuckyCat]

There'd be no reason to include the images if otherwise. Occam's razor suggests you're wrong, so I don't buy your argument. Goku dying in Cell's timeline is an undisputed fact, but again, is not mutually exclusive to Trunks killing Freeza, plothole or not.

The illustrations are there to show Freeza and King Cold. At that time, there were no images of Cell's timeline to show, so they used stock images saving Toriyama the work of drawing new images for an offscreen scene. That sounds simpler than what your suggesting.

And Trunks killing is mutually exclusive, because if Trunks goes back in time, he goes to save Goku. That's his mission. Goku should be alive. If Goku is dead, Future Trunks wasn't around.

I'm not making any of this up, it's all in Daizenshuu 7 as I posted last page. If people don't want to accept it, that's fine, but please don't make it sound like I invented the 4 timelines theory without official material.

[Sayo-chan]

The illustrations are there to show Freeza and King Cold. At that time, there were no images of Cell's timeline to show, so they used stock images saving Toriyama the work of drawing new images for an offscreen scene. That sounds simpler than what your suggesting.

It isn't. It makes the unnecessary assumption that Trunks isn't lumped into category as well. Occam's razor.

And Trunks killing is mutually exclusive, because if Trunks goes back in time, he goes to save Goku. That's his mission. Goku should be alive. If Goku is dead, Future Trunks wasn't around.

And he can't fail his mission somehow? It's not mutually exclusive no matter how many times you say it is. You can't prove your assertion.

I'm not making any of this up, it's all in Daizenshuu 7 as I posted last page. If people don't want to accept it, that's fine, but please don't make it sound like I invented the 4 timelines theory without official material.

We're all well aware of what it says there. I'm not taking an issue with what it says, I'm taking an issue with what you're saying.

[LuckyCat]

It isn't. It makes the unnecessary assumption that Trunks isn't lumped into category as well. Occam's razor.

We're both making assumptions, because it's not explicitly stated. The images contradict the dialog and your explanation is no more simple than Daizenshuu 7's.

And he can't fail his mission somehow? It's not mutually exclusive no matter how many times you say it is. You can't prove your assertion.

Why would he fail? Where do you even get that he failed from any official material? That's your assertion, I don't need to prove it.

We're all well aware of what it says there. I'm not taking an issue with what it says, I'm taking an issue with what you're saying.

No, rereboy has already explained he doesn't agree with Daizenshuu 7, that's what his issue is with.

But I don't see a reason to go in circles. There are 2 theories here, and I support Daizenshuu 7 based on chapter 364. People who disagree like you take the stock images literally and handwave chapter 364 as irrelevant. That's fine, I see merit in both theories.

[Sayo-chan]

We're both making assumptions, because it's not explicitly stated. The images contradict the dialog and your explanation is no more simple than Daizenshuu 7's.

It doesn't have to be explicit, it's implied by being in the same panel. The panel contradicts nothing Cell says, it's an unnecessary jump, a non sequitur if you will.

Why would he fail? Where do you even get that he failed from any official material? That's your assertion, I don't need to prove it.

Why? Because he killed Freeza and King Cold in Trunks's timeline. It's not an assertion, it's the product of deductive reasoning. He had to fail because Trunks was there. You have to prove otherwise if you want to make a valid point, which you have yet to do.

No, rereboy has already explained he doesn't agree with Daizenshuu 7, that's what his issue is with.

Okay? How does that make him unaware of what it says? I stated I take an issue with what you've stated.

But I don't see a reason to go in circles. There are 2 theories here, and I support Daizenshuu 7 based on chapter 364. People who disagree like you take the stock images literally and handwave chapter 364 as irrelevant. That's fine, I see merit in both theories.

It's not a stock image, so I don't know why you insist on calling it that. It's just reusing the appropriate drawing to convey a flashback. This is a false equivalency fallacy. Just because it's a theory doesn't mean it's in line with what's already implied.

[TheUltimateVegito]

Wasn't it Trunks who defeated Freeza in Cell's timeline?

Impossible. Goku died of a heart virus in Cell's timeline which means there was no medicine from Trunks. (Chapter 364, p.4)

That just means the medicine didn't work for the Goku from Cell's timeline, which is possible considering Goku almost died due to the heart virus in the original timeline (He would've gotten killed by Android 19 due to heart virus.) Cell would know it's the heart virus because, judging by the main timeline, Gohan would point out it's the heart virus which is why Cell would know. Trunks could've also went back to simply inform the Z-Fighters of the threat so they can be better prepared for it without Goku catching the heart virus in his timeline, which would prevent Piccolo from dying so that they can wish people back.

[LuckyCat]

That just means the medicine didn't work for the Goku in the timeline of Trunks from Cell's timeline, which is possible considering Goku almost died due to the heart virus in the original timeline (He would've gotten killed by Android 19 due to heart virus.)

Why wouldn't the medicine work? That just seems incredibly far-fetched to me. And no official material, not even an interview or Daizenshuu mentions that. In fact, Daizenshuu 7, an official source, places events of Cell and Trunks' timeline the same until Cell steals the time machine.

Again, I get there are two theories here. But time theories aside, the spy robots have knowledge of Super Saiyan. I hope we can keep our discussion from hereon within the thread's topic.

[TheUltimateVegito]

That just means the medicine didn't work for the Goku in the timeline of Trunks from Cell's timeline, which is possible considering Goku almost died due to the heart virus in the original timeline (He would've gotten killed by Android 19 due to heart virus.)

Why wouldn't the medicine work? That just seems incredibly far-fetched to me. And no official material, not even an interview or Daizenshuu mentions that. In fact, Daizenshuu 7, an official source, places events of Cell and Trunks' timeline the same until Cell steals the time machine.

Again, I get there are two theories here. But time theories aside, the spy robots have knowledge of Super Saiyan. I hope we can keep our discussion from hereon within the thread's topic.

My bad lol. What I meant is that Goku most likely didn't take the medicine like he did in the main timeline.

[LuckyCat]

My bad lol. What I meant is that Goku most likely didn't take the medicine like he did in the main timeline.

I mean sure, that's possible. But it sounds illogical. Why wouldn't events flow the same way? I just can't accept Goku dying randomly despite having medicine. Without explanation of that, Daizenshuu 7 sounds so much tighter.

[TheUltimateVegito]

My bad lol. What I meant is that Goku most likely didn't take the medicine like he did in the main timeline.

I mean sure, that's possible. But it sounds illogical. Why wouldn't events flow the same way?

It doesn't need to.

[LuckyCat]

It doesn't need to.

Okay, well we don't need to agree. I think there's enough official material to support my position though.