Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Freeza?

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Re: Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Fre

Post by Speedster » Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:40 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:If you want to believe in filler content rather than what is shown in the manga, that's your business, but we have Toriyama clearly showing us, among the rest of the training montage that page gave us, that Goku trained with Piccolo as a Super Saiya-jin.
Says the person who discounts clear evidence from the actual original manga (the actual panels) in favour of a statement in ANOTHER ANIME scene created 20 years later. Besides as I said in that cover scene base Gohan was present too. So base Gohan=Piccolo=SSJ1 Goku by your (erroneous) logic.
Or he thought that Vegeta, in the year that he was gone, had managed to become a Super Saiya-jin as well.
Another baseless assumption as Goku was clearly surprised that someone else managed to become a Super Saiyan.
Given what's stated, there's no evidence that Freeza was anywhere near his full power when Trunks defeated him.
No. It was explicitly stated that Mecha Freeza was stronger than he used to be and he was clearly trying his best to beat Trunks. Even if he was only at 50% of his maximum the ease with which Trunks defeated him compared to how SSJ1 Goku fared against 50% Freeza is enough to conclude that SSJ Trunks was stronger than SSJ1 Goku was on Namek. Also Goku commented that he didn't know whether himself could beat them as fast as Trunks did and he said so having their full power in mind. Of course later it is proved that SSJ Goku and SSJ Trunks were on par but the point is that the are both stronger than SSJ1 Goku used to be on Namek. Additionally Goku learned to master the SSJ form - don't think he trained to do so? Also don't you think he received a Zenkai boost from his battle with Freeza? Besides it is common sense - Wikipedia page here.
In addition, it should be noted that Goku, before showing much any signs of the heart virus taking effect, could barely stagger a base-level strength Dr. Gero with a punch when intending to try and stop him from destroying the city, yet Piccolo was able to effortlessly batter and toss around a far stronger Dr. Gero (having both Ssj Vegeta's ki blast and Piccolo's ki augmenting his own). If Piccolo was weaker than Goku's base form, as you're attesting, then there's no way that he'd have been able to take on Gero so readily.
Yet Dr Gero was capable to immobilise Piccolo the first time he attacked him. Besides Gero COULD measure power levels and he didn't consider Piccolo as anything special while in the city. You assume that Goku powered up to his max base for that punch while we know he had to act quickly to make Gero stop. Also given the unknown threat why Piccolo didn't increase his own power level to the maximum too if you are going to assume that Goku did so? Funny that for you only Piccolo could be suppressing his PL.

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Re: Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Fre

Post by Darkprince410 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:09 pm

Says the person who discounts clear evidence from the actual original manga (the actual panels) in favour of a statement in ANOTHER ANIME scene created 20 years later. Besides as I said in that cover scene base Gohan was present too. So base Gohan=Piccolo=SSJ1 Goku by your (erroneous) logic.
Because there isn't clear evidence in the original manga. Most all of your evidence is based on your own interpretations on where you think that characters should be strength wise, while ignoring what is actually shown. Simple fact of the matter is though is that Piccolo is shown sparring with Ssj Goku, thus gains that he would gain as a Super Saiya-jin would be proportionally smaller in his base, and that Piccolo is established later to have a battle power high enough that he could be considered strong for not being a Super Saiya-jin.
Another baseless assumption as Goku was clearly surprised that someone else managed to become a Super Saiyan.
He was surprised by this random new person who neither he nor anyone else had met, was somehow a Super Saiya-jin. There's no reason to assume that Goku would be shocked if Vegeta became one.
No. It was explicitly stated that Mecha Freeza was stronger than he used to be and he was clearly trying his best to beat Trunks. Even if he was only at 50% of his maximum the ease with which Trunks defeated him compared to how SSJ1 Goku fared against 50% Freeza is enough to conclude that SSJ Trunks was stronger than SSJ1 Goku was on Namek. Also Goku commented that he didn't know whether himself could beat them as fast as Trunks did and he said so having their full power in mind. Of course later it is proved that SSJ Goku and SSJ Trunks were on par but the point is that the are both stronger than SSJ1 Goku used to be on Namek. Additionally Goku learned to master the SSJ form - don't think he trained to do so? Also don't you think he received a Zenkai boost from his battle with Freeza? Besides it is common sense - Wikipedia page here.
1) It's established by Gohan that Freeza wasn't at anywhere near his full power (in relation to Namek) when he came to Earth, and no indication is given at all to indicate that he powered up at all from that level.

2) Since when is a single ki blast (the only thing Freeza did to Trunks) suddenly an indicator that he was "clearly trying his best" to beat Trunks? He fired the single ki blast, without any indication that he suddenly jumped or spiked his battle power at all, and then thought he beat Trunks. That's it.

3) How was it proven at all that Trunks and Goku were on par with one another? Literally nothing is mentioned or even hinted at that they were on equal grounds. Their little sword/finger exchange is irrelevant given that neither were trying, and nothing was mentioned after that point.

4) Goku wasn't anywhere close to death following his battle with Freeza, thus he wouldn't have obtained a near-death power-up.

5) Common sense says that, when it's established that Freeza is nowhere near full power, and nothing is suggested or stated after that he raised his strength up from that point, then he wasn't at full power during his skirmish with Trunks.
Yet Dr Gero was capable to immobilise Piccolo the first time he attacked him. Besides Gero COULD measure power levels and he didn't consider Piccolo as anything special while in the city. You assume that Goku powered up to his max base for that punch while we know he had to act quickly to make Gero stop. Also given the unknown threat why Piccolo didn't increase his own power level to the maximum too if you are going to assume that Goku did so? Funny that for you only Piccolo could be suppressing his PL.
No, I don't think that it was only Piccolo that was suppressed at the time, but when Goku actively attacks Gero in a burst of anger to try and stop him from destroying the rest of the city, under the assumption that #19 and Gero were the ones that had terrorized the future and killed off everyone else (and who was touted to be stronger than Freeza), there's no reason at all that he'd hold back to try and stop him.

And again, both #19 and Gero are enemies that both Goku and Vegeta indicated they needed Super Saiya-jin to beat, but by your reasoning, neither would need it since they'd HAVE to be stronger in their base forms than Piccolo, who was capable of easily taking on a power-boosted Gero with no difficulty whatsoever.

Base Goku = Barely make a base strength Dr. Gero stagger with a punch, with no indication or suggestion that he was holding back his punch.

Piccolo = Able to effortlessly take on and nearly defeat Dr. Gero after his strength was augmented by a ki blast from Ssj Vegeta as well as his (Piccolo) own ki.

Looking at it objectively, there's no way that Piccolo was weaker than Goku and Vegeta's base at the time.

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Re: Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Fre

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:28 pm

Comparing Sick Super Saiyan Goku's beatdown on Android #19 to Piccolo's beatdown on a considerably stronger Android #20 should tell you how Piccolo compares to Sick Super Saiyan Goku, let alone Base Goku.

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Re: Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Fre

Post by Doctor. » Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:30 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Comparing Sick Super Saiyan Goku's beatdown on Android #19 to Piccolo's beatdown on a considerably stronger Android #20 should tell you how Piccolo compares to Sick Super Saiyan Goku, let alone Base Goku.
How do we know #20 is "considerably stronger"?

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Re: Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Fre

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:32 pm

Doctor. wrote:How do we know #20 is "considerably stronger"?
Because Android #20 had absorbed Yamcha's Ki, suppressed Piccolo's Ki, and SS Vegeta's blast (compared to #19 having not absorbed any energy when initially fighting Goku), on top of already starting off stronger or on par with #19. Pre-absorption #20 even shocked Vegeta with his speed, despite Vegeta already evaluating post-absorption #19's speed.

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Re: Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Fre

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:53 pm

We also have Gero saying that he is superior to 19.
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Re: Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Fre

Post by Speedster » Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:13 pm

Simple fact of the matter is though is that Piccolo is shown sparring with Ssj Goku, thus gains that he would gain as a Super Saiya-jin would be proportionally smaller in his base, and that Piccolo is established later to have a battle power high enough that he could be considered strong for not being a Super Saiya-jin.
I explained the flaw in this logic thrice with Kamiccolo's RosaT training. I won't repeat it again. Besides your major problem is Piccolo being too weak compared to SSJ Goku but that would only be the case if SSJ was a 50x multiplier which requires base Goku to be weak.
There's no reason to assume that Goku would be shocked if Vegeta became one.
As there is equally no reason to assume that he referred to Vegeta assuming he became a Super Saiyan.
1) It's established by Gohan that Freeza wasn't at anywhere near his full power (in relation to Namek) when he came to Earth, and no indication is given at all to indicate that he powered up at all from that level.
As there is no indication that he didn't power up. Besides we don't know how his artificial parts worked - they might have been with undetected type of Ki like the Androids. Also do you think Freeza wouldn't power up to at least 50% when he saw someone turning Super Saiyan? And even if he had been only at 50% we can still conclude by comparing the battle of SSJ1 Goku vs 50% Freeza on Namek and SSJ Trunks against 50% Mecha Freeza that SSJ Trunks was stronger than SSJ1 Goku on Namek.
2) Since when is a single ki blast (the only thing Freeza did to Trunks) suddenly an indicator that he was "clearly trying his best" to beat Trunks? He fired the single ki blast, without any indication that he suddenly jumped or spiked his battle power at all, and then thought he beat Trunks. That's it.
... Against a Super Saiyan mind you, after Freeza was defeated by another one in his 100% final form... And what about King Cold who did see his son dying at he hands of Trunks? Didn't he power up at all either when he swung the sword? Or are you going to tell me that he thought it was solely due to the sword? What stopped him from swinging it as hard as he could to ensure victory? Or are you going to tell me he was only in his imaginary "second form"? It would very oxymoron to dismiss official anime filler (where Freeza does try very hard even lauching a nova attack 10 times what was required to destroy planet Namek) and at the same time indulge to fan-fiction don't you think?
How was it proven at all that Trunks and Goku were on par with one another? Literally nothing is mentioned or even hinted at that they were on equal grounds.
Goku says it when Trunks turned SSJ.
Their little sword/finger exchange is irrelevant given that neither were trying, and nothing was mentioned after that point
So you decided now that the sword/finger exchange was irrelevant? Based on what? Your feelings? Let me respond with your own words: all of your arguments are based on your own interpretations on where you think that characters should be strength wise, while ignoring what is actually shown
Goku wasn't anywhere close to death following his battle with Freeza, thus he wouldn't have obtained a near-death power-up.
He would still receive a Zenkai. As Vegeta did after fighting with Ginyu.
Common sense says that, when it's established that Freeza is nowhere near full power, and nothing is suggested or stated after that he raised his strength up from that point, then he wasn't at full power during his skirmish with Trunks.
It makes ZERO sense from a story-telling point of view if Trunks defeated a non-powered up Freeza as the whole point of having Freeza returning was to provide a reference frame for how much bigger threat than Freeza the Androids are.
And again, both #19 and Gero are enemies that both Goku and Vegeta indicated they needed Super Saiya-jin to beat
They didn't originally know the full extent of their capabilities. Even Piccolo initially implied that the Androids are stronger than him and it turned out that he was stronger than #20.
Base Goku = Barely make a base strength Dr. Gero stagger with a punch, with no indication or suggestion that he was holding back his punch.
Goku didn't want to fight in the city. If he wanted to use his full power he would have powered to SSJ anyway. Additionally we did see Goku suppressing his power even during fights. Like against Cell or SSJ3 against fat Buu. You also assume that Goku was 100% healthy while we see him sweating immediately afterwards during flying.
But by your reasoning, neither would need it since they'd HAVE to be stronger in their base forms than Piccolo, who was capable of easily taking on a power-boosted Gero with no difficulty whatsoever.
I need to remind you that sick SSJ1 Goku was still stronger than Piccolo ... and Piccolo could sense Goku's power as SSJ1 and commented that it was much weaker than it should had normally been.
Piccolo = Able to effortlessly take on and nearly defeat Dr. Gero after his strength was augmented by a ki blast from Ssj Vegeta as well as his (Piccolo) own ki. Looking at it subjectively, there's no way that Piccolo was weaker than Goku and Vegeta's base at the time.
Here fixed that for you. :thumbup: Base Vegeta knocked Piccolo out while Piccolo was trying to attack to help Goku. Also base Vegeta did free Goku from #19. If Piccolo was anywhere near 50x base Vegeta he would have felt nothing. Or was now Piccolo supressing his power again ... while attacking (and prove my own point about base Goku attacking #20 in the city)?

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Re: Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Fre

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:43 pm

Speedster wrote:I need to remind you that sick SSJ1 Goku was still much stronger than Piccolo ...
Almost seem like similar type gaps in both fights, eh? In fact, Piccolo's beatdown on #20 post is arguably more impressive than Goku's beatdown on #19 pre.

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Re: Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Fre

Post by Darkprince410 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:53 pm

I explained the flaw in this logic thrice with Kamiccolo's RosaT training. I won't repeat it again. Besides your major problem is Piccolo being too weak compared to SSJ Goku but that would only be the case if SSJ was a 50x multiplier and base Goku weak.
Except there's no flaw there. Piccolo grew powerful enough to rival that of Super Saiya-jin during his three years of training because the plot demanded it, and for the same reason, the plot demanded that he not gain such exponential increases during his year in the Room of Spirit and Time.
As there is no indication that he didn't power up. Besides we don't know how his artificial parts worked - they might have been with undetected type of Ki like the Androids. Also do you think Freeza wouldn't power up to at least 50% when he saw someone turning Super Saiyan? And even if he had been only at 50% we can still conclude by comparing the battle of SSJ1 Goku vs 50% Freeza on Namek and SSJ Trunks against 50% Mecha Freeza that SSJ Trunks was stronger than SSJ1 Goku on Namek.
The point was specifically made that he wasn't at the same power on Earth as he was capable of on Namek, and no mention or suggestion was made that he powered up. Besides, how can you compare how well Goku did against Freeza in comparison to how well Trunks did against Freeza? Trunks surprised Freeza from behind and sliced him in half with a sword. That's all he did against Freeza. No punches. No kicks. Nothing of the sort. It was literally one blast to distract him and then a slice in half before dicing him to bits. Goku had no sword, so there's no way you can compare the actions at all, though at 50% power, Freeza wasn't able to so much as touch Goku, so if anything, all we saw was that they were likely equal in power.
... Against a Super Saiyan mind you, after Freeza was defeated by another one in his 100% final form... And what about King Cold who did see his son dying at he hands of Trunks? Didn't he power up at all either when he swung the sword? Or are you going to tell me that he thought it was solely due to the sword? What stopped him from swinging it as hard as he could to ensure victory? Or are you going to tell me he was only in his imaginary "second form"? It would very oxymoron to dismiss official anime filler (where Freeza does try very hard even lauching a nova attack 10 times what was required to destroy planet Namek) and at the same time indulge to fan-fiction don't you think?
Filler has been shown time and again to be completely inaccurate and contradictory to what Toriyama was trying to establish, so why should anyone adhere to it as fact in this situation? Freeza threw one blast and assumed he finished Trunks off, and that's it as to the extent of what happened.
Goku says it when Trunks turned SSJ.
No he did not. If you're going to go by the anime or by random filler content, then that's up to you, but as far as the manga is concerned, Goku doesn't say they're the same strength at all.
So you decided now that the sword/finger exchange was irrelevant? Based on what? Your feelings? Let me respond with your own words: all of your arguments are based on your own interpretations on where you think that characters should be strength wise, while ignoring what is actually shown
I say it's irrelevant because it's established that neither were trying to give it their all. Goku established quite readily that Trunks wasn't really trying one bit.
He would still receive a Zenkai. As Vegeta did after fighting with Ginyu.
He didn't gain one following his battle with Ginyu. At no point was it stated or suggested he gained one following his battle with Ginyu, and since it's established in the same saga that it requires a near-death experience to obtain one, then the point is moot.
Here fixed that for you. :thumbup: Base Vegeta knocked Piccolo out while Piccolo was trying to attack to help Goku. Also base Vegeta did free Goku from #19. If Piccolo was anywhere near 50x base Vegeta he would have felt nothing. Or was now Piccolo supressing his power again ... while attacking (and prove my own point about base Goku attacking #20 in the city)?
Huh? Vegeta didn't knock Piccolo out at all. Where are you getting that? By Piccolo's own admission, he intentionally let himself get hit by Gero's eye lasers so he could "play possum" to get a good opportunity to save Goku, but Vegeta stepped in before he had the chance. Vegeta didn't even touch him there.

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Re: Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Fre

Post by Speedster » Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:55 pm

Almost seem like similar type gaps in both fights, eh?
That is due to your assertion that #19 and #20 were exactly equal or that #20 was even stronger than #19 because he absorbed Yamha's energy. You conveniently showed only scans from the fight of Goku and #19 after #19 absorbed a lot of power from SSJ Goku.
Darkprince410 wrote:Except there's no flaw there. Piccolo grew powerful enough to rival that of Super Saiya-jin during his three years of training because the plot demanded it, and for the same reason, the plot demanded that he not gain such exponential increases during his year in the Room of Spirit and Time.
The plot demanded???? That is not an acceptable answer. You don't even convince yourself... And I see that you conveniently selectively partially answer to my arguments (e.g about King Cold) and you misquote things from the manga (like Trunks "not trying a bit").
Last edited by Speedster on Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Fre

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:00 pm

Speedster wrote:You conveniently showed only scans from the fight of Goku and #19 after #19 absorbed a lot of power from SSJ Goku.
The scans I posted are from before #19 absorbed any energy.

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Re: Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Fre

Post by Darkprince410 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:05 pm

Speedster wrote:
Almost seem like similar type gaps in both fights, eh?
That is due to your assertion that #19 and #20 were exactly equal or that #20 was even stronger than #19 because he absorbed Yamha's energy. You conveniently showed only scans from the fight of Goku and #19 after #19 absorbed a lot of power from SSJ Goku.
In the pages he posted, Goku hadn't even fired off the Kamehameha yet that #19 absorbed, so that was base-power #19 that Goku was fighting against in those scans. It's the page right after the one that he stopped on that has Goku firing the Kamehameha. Additionally, it's not simply an assertion that Gero is stronger than #19, as he outright establishes that fact.

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Re: Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Fre

Post by Speedster » Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:07 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:Additionally, it's not simply an assertion that Gero is stronger than #19, as he outright establishes that fact.
No he doesn't. The only thing he infers is that he can "handle" more energy - possibly meaning having a greater storage capacity for the energy they absorbed as he later implies #19's plan was to absorb Goku's energy and add it to its own and he was concerned that it would run out of energy before managing to do so.

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Re: Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Fre

Post by Darkprince410 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:21 pm

Speedster wrote:
Darkprince410 wrote:Additionally, it's not simply an assertion that Gero is stronger than #19, as he outright establishes that fact.
No he doesn't. The only thing he infers is that he can "handle" more energy - possibly meaning having a greater storage capacity for the energy they absorbed as he later implies #19's plan was to absorb Goku's energy and add it to its own and he was concerned that it would run out of energy before managing to do so.
No, when Goku transforms into a Super Saiya-jin, Gero comments that even though it is an increase in power far beyond what he calculated Goku could reach, it was still something even #19 could defeat (and he states defeat), and that naturally he wouldn't have trouble with it. It was nothing to do with handling in terms of a greater storage capacity for ki draining.

Likewise, despite having analyzed #19's movements and capabilities, Dr. Gero, without having absorbed any ki, was indicated by Vegeta to be even faster.

In fact, no comment is made in the manga about him simply having a larger capacity for storing ki than #19 does.

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Re: Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Fre

Post by TobyS » Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:28 am

What most people forget is Goku was usin KKx10 when fighting 50% freeza and couldn't land a hit. KKx20 hurt Freeza a lot, he probably jumped from between 50-90 to resist that kamehameha but Goku had no chance. It follows Goku would be equally useless against buff 100% Freeza with x20.

This means Goku can grow over between TWENTY and FORTY times stronger in raw base form and still be weaker than full non mecha Freeza.

If you believe the SS is a 50x multiplier of base in the Cell saga that is a tonne for wiggle room for his base to grow enough to benefit his SS form to fight Cell saga characters.

It's really not that hard to believe.

The only sad thing is it kinda nerfs the humans by extension. Even if we assume they caught up to be about even with Goku, they are now locked in at below Freeza levels of strength, and always 50x weaker than Goku. :(
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Re: Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Fre

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:05 pm

On top of what Darkprince said, the Daizenshuu also says #20 is stronger than #19.

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Re: Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Fre

Post by buutenks » Sat Oct 24, 2015 1:41 pm

Either base saiyans were indeed stronger but got retconned to be below that.Or beerus overestimated freeza.

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Re: Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Fre

Post by Kaboom » Sat Oct 24, 2015 2:01 pm

It's not a "retcon" when the opposite was never established. Hinted or implied, maybe. But never stated or demonstrated as a fact.
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Re: Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Fre

Post by Perfectionist-Cell » Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:51 am

This should not be possible since Goku faught Frieza 12 years ago.

For example. Goku went from 416 to 8000 in 1 year that's a 19.2 increase.

Goku's power level was 3.000.000 when he faught Frieza. Assuming he got a zenkai of 30% his power level like Vegeta did. His power level after healing on yardrat should be 3,900,000.

Since he train to master instant transmission his power level is now 4.000.000'.

Goku does not show up for 1 year.He comes after Trunks defeats Frieza.He easily blocks ssj Trunks attacks with ease.

Trunks also defeated Frieza with no effort at all indicating Goku got stronger as well since he blocked his attacks as ssj.

Goku then trains for 3 years. If we use the X19.2 per year factor and multiply by 3. It would make Goku's base would be 230400000 already exceeding Frieza's full power.

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Re: Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Fre

Post by Kaboom » Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:16 pm

Perfectionist-Cell wrote:If we use the X19.2 per year factor and multiply by 3. It would make Goku's base would be 230,400,000 already exceeding Freeza's full power.
That doesn't mean anything. Power gains aren't predictable by some sort of formula. They can vary wildly depending on what type of training you do, and there's things like environment, partners or lack thereof, and diminishing returns to consider too. Just because Goku got X times stronger in one year doesn't mean he's automatically going to get X times stronger again the next year, even if he does the exact same training.
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