Do you think Full powered SSJ unlocks/increases potential

[Saturnine]

Fpssj imo is ssj grade 3 without muscle gain and speed loss. Basically goku can go beyond normal ssj without buffing up. That is mssj or fpssj.

Simplest way to think of it, really.

Stamina alone is nothing if you aren't strong enough to defeat your opponent.

[TheMikado]

I believe that MSSJ only increases the Saiyans base power, and the way it does so is by making the body so tough that the strain of SSJ is basically non existent. I view it like Gokus weight/gravity training throughout DB, where he sort of forces his body to toughen to the constant pressure from the extra weight to the point where it feels natural.

This is more correct although it wouldn't say their base increases but the ability to go further in SSJ form increases. So yes their base SSJ form would be more capable.

Fpssj imo is ssj grade 3 without muscle gain and speed loss. Basically goku can go beyond normal ssj without buffing up. That is mssj or fpssj.

Simplest way to think of it, really.

Stamina alone is nothing if you aren't strong enough to defeat your opponent.

But this is not at all what Goku said. It's physical conditioning. It's not a form that grants any inherit power boosts at all other than the conditioning itself. USSJ is closer to SSJ2, it's just that FSSJ allows mastery of the basic SSJ so that SSJ2 is achievable without the USSJ side effects.

[Saturnine]

But this is not at all what Goku said. It's physical conditioning. It's not a form that grants any inherit power boosts at all other than the conditioning itself. USSJ is closer to SSJ2, it's just that FSSJ allows mastery of the basic SSJ so that SSJ2 is achievable without the USSJ side effects.

Yeah, only that Grade 3 is still within the realm of SSj1, while SSj2 is another level altogether. There should be no way for Grade 3 to be comparable to SSj2 in any regard.

I think we should make a list of for and against arguments. The question being "does FPSSj incorporate USSj power".

FOR

- Goku and Gohan are shown to be able to power up after mastering Super Saiyan, something an unmastered SSj can't do
- Their powering up process is very similar to powering up to Grade 2
- In the manga, Goku's powering up aura is drawn exactly like Vegeta's Grade 2 aura.
- Goku says he gave it his absolute all against Cell and fought at full power - Grade 2 was never even mentioned or considered as an option, even though it would have provided measurable benefits which would have been of help.
- Grade 2 and 3 are about increasing power through forcible exertion, but once the body learns to contain the power, the exertion is no longer needed - something FPSSj illustrates
- Vegeta and Trunks only use SSj for the Cell Games in the manga, which shows they followed in Goku and Gohan's footsteps. That must mean they deemed mastering SSj the superior way to power up than using Grade 2. This was probably overlooked by Toei when making the anime, since they use Grade 2 there still. But in the manga they didn't, even though they probably could and should have done it, if it were possible.
- Goku at full power was vastly superior to Grade 3 Trunks after one year of training. Training efficiency aside, this would have been hard to accomplish if mastering SSj didn't give you access to the entirety of SSj power, previously exemplified by Grade 3
- Later Freeza shows something that heavily resembles FPSSj - the relation of his buff 100% form to his mastered form directly reflects the relation of Grade 3 to FPSSj. It's really hard not to see the analogy
- While at first Grade 2 and 3 were described as levels beyond Super Saiyan, they were later considered within the "Super Saiyan wall" in the manga, and confirmed to be branches of Super Saiyan in the guidebooks. FPSSj is complete mastery of Super Saiyan, it should be superior to the imperfect transformations

AGAINST

- It is only ever explicitly stated that FPSSj eliminates the strain of maintaining the form and powering up (though to be fair - strain can be understood as the side effects of Grade 2 and 3)
- SS2 followed and he redundancy of Grade 2 and 3 could simply be explained by SSj2 replacing them

Feel free to add more if you can think of some

[TheMikado]

^ OK I think I finally see where you are coming from. In physical conditioning the idea is that each state of activity drops a tier in the amount of energy required to maintain that state. In my other example I maintained that the FSSJ made the original SSJ like their natural state in Ki consumption and strain.

Not accurate number but just for illustration purposes.

Base: Power 5 Speed 5 Ki consumption 5
SSJ: Power 10 Speed 10 Ki consumption 10.
Grade 2: Power 15 Speed 15 Ki consumption 20
Grade 3: Power 20 Speed 15 Ki consumption 30

After mastering SSJ (FSSJ)

SSJ: Power 10 Speed 10 consumption 5 (as natural as base)
Grade 2: Power 15 Speed 15 Ki consumption 10
Grade 3: Power 20 Speed 20 Ki consumption 20
In this case the new Grade 3 becomes SSJ2 because it lowered initial cost of the base SSJ bring the following more in line in terms of Ki consumption and it corresponding made each subsequent level more efficient allowing everyone to always fight in the equivalent of Grade 2 without the strain.

All Gohan did was figure out how to Go grade 3 but use his conditioning to keep the negative effects from taking over his body. The same technique athletes use.

Like I said everyones SSJ fighting state is now the equivalent of Grade 2 as the power up goes directly into that state for same amount of the previous SSJ Ki consumption.

While I guess it would be still possible to go grade 3 the SSJ2 state with the new lower Ki consumption would have the same effect without the drawbacks and all FSSJ does is make higher levels easier to access through conditioning. In that sense that is the maximum a SSJ can achieve form wise before SSJ2 takes over as the next most efficient form.

[dbgtFO]

When has grade 2 ever shown to be disadvantageous? Or bad at stamina? FPSSJ goku showed worse stamina than vegeta as ASSJ did.

To be fair. Vegeta had a fight, where he was curbstomping his opponent or getting curbstomped before unleashing his ultimate attack, so he didn't fight a prolonged battle like Goku did vs Cell.
That could explain why Goku looked comparatively worse off, stamina-wise.

[TheMikado]

When has grade 2 ever shown to be disadvantageous? Or bad at stamina? FPSSJ goku showed worse stamina than vegeta as ASSJ did.

To be fair. Vegeta had a fight, where he was curbstomping his opponent or getting curbstomped before unleashing his ultimate attack, so he didn't fight a prolonged battle like Goku did vs Cell.
That could explain why Goku looked comparatively worse off, stamina-wise.

Vegeta also only uses it in bursts and the type of training Vegeta did not as very different than Gokus. Vegeta's was focused on high output so he would be more accustomed to using get he Grade 2 form. If these were two runners Gokus would be long distance running trains, Vegeta's would be sprint training. Both give you advantage outside their main benefit but Gokus training wasn't for maintaining higher output levels where ad Vegeta's was.