The Dark Transitional Shift

[HeroR]

I have to disagree.

The U6 tournament opened the door to an even bigger tournament in the future with all 12 universes. We also got to see character development from Beerus and Vegeta, along with development from Cabba and Hit. As Champa himself said, this tournament was just the warm-up for bigger things, so it's hardly pointless.

I don't see how there was any character development for Beerus though. We had already learned that he had a good side considering how he lied and spared Earth even though the SSJ God couldn't match him. The issue with Cabba's and Hit's development is what I said before - the show has shown no intention of exploring Universe 6 so far, so it makes it all feel pointless.

If it is, then the 21st Martial Arts Tournament in Dragon Ball was also pointless since literally nothing was at stake.

The 21st tournament wasn't pointless because through its build up we got Kuririn's introduction and eventually befriending Goku, alongside both training under Roshi and eventually facing him. We also get Yamcha and Bulma meeting the new characters during the tournament itself, which quickly ties into their appearances in the Red Ribbon arc and later stories. Maybe I'm wrong and the Universe 6 characters will return for the upcoming story, but so far it all feels like it came and went with little effect on anything.

Beerus spared the Earth for selfish reasons. He wanted to fight Goku again someday and he liked the food. He didn't spare the Earth out of the goodness of his heart. With his wish to Super Shenron, he did a favor to his brother for seemingly no benefit. He could have done it just so Champa will owe him one, but Whis, Vados, and Champa are shocked that Beerus made that wish, showing that this is something he wouldn't have done in the past. So it shows development on Beerus' character since he shows him doing something selfless.

As for the U6 fighters, since Champa spared them because he needs them for Zen-O's tournament, it is a safe bet that we will see them again, so I don't know why you are writing them off as unimportant just because they may not be in the next story arc.

Also, all the things you named from the 21st tournament are the same thing from from Champa's tournament. We met characters from a whole new universe, got information about U6 Saiyans, got introduce to new races like the Tin Men, and met Zen-O who wants to have all the universes to fight in a tournament. It sounds like you think these things are pointless because there is no immediate payoff.

[Beerus-sama]

Beerus spared the Earth for selfish reasons. He wanted to fight Goku again someday and he liked the food. He didn't spare the Earth out of the goodness of his heart. With his wish to Super Shenron, he did a favor to his brother for seemingly no benefit. He could have done it just so Champa will owe him one, but Whis, Vados, and Champa are shocked that Beerus made that wish, showing that this is something he wouldn't have done in the past. So it shows development on Beerus' character since he shows him doing something selfless.

I wouldn't say they were "shocked", more like they were surprised. Shampa's last words were "that fool, being so impertinent. he disgust me" like, he knew he could do something like that for him.

[fadeddreams5]

The Buu saga was the worst saga in DBZ, and is the catalyst for everything we've gotten since. I hardy think it had a good balance. The whole Gotenks bit was terrible and undercut the drama.

Mind you, I still like most of it (absolutely love the Kid Buu arc) and think it's miles better than anything in GT and Super.

[Sonicjamareiz]

The Buu saga was the worst saga in DBZ, and is the catalyst for everything we've gotten since. I hardy think it had a good balance. The whole Gotenks bit was terrible and undercut the drama.

Mind you, I still like most of it (absolutely love the Kid Buu arc) and think it's miles better than anything in GT and Super.

arguably...

[HeroR]

Beerus spared the Earth for selfish reasons. He wanted to fight Goku again someday and he liked the food. He didn't spare the Earth out of the goodness of his heart. With his wish to Super Shenron, he did a favor to his brother for seemingly no benefit. He could have done it just so Champa will owe him one, but Whis, Vados, and Champa are shocked that Beerus made that wish, showing that this is something he wouldn't have done in the past. So it shows development on Beerus' character since he shows him doing something selfless.

I wouldn't say they were "shocked", more like they were surprised. Shampa's last words were "that fool, being so impertinent. he disgust me" like, he knew he could do something like that for him.

I maybe remembering the scene wrong, but Champa seemed annoyed since he knew he owed Beerus one and wasn't happy about that. At the same time, it seemed no one really expected Beerus to bring back U6's Earth (Whis even said it was so unlike him), and these are people who knew Beerus for million of years. But I agree that surprise is a better word than shock.

[Fizzer]

I posted this in the ep 46 thread but I think it's better off here

The tonal shift is extremely welcome, not because I think Dragon Ball should be some dark intense badass show, but because I think it should sometimes be that a la Daimao, Freeza, Cell arcs, and it should sometimes be light and funny and loveable. DB at its best is a blend of both as appropriate. When the world is at risk and people are dying, you can feel at in the atmosphere, and when the characters we love are just hanging out or up to whatever new crazy antics, it's a load of nonsensical fun. That's why the series is so great.

We don't need gore, we don't even need permanent death, but dire situations do need tension. We need the characters to be genuinely concerned, and to learn from their experiences. I actually have very high hopes for Super from point on. I'm one of the people who really loved the Universe 6 arc and thought it delivered a pretty good balance. The drama in that arc actually came from the characters, especially once Hit got involved. The whole "defying the gods" aspect with Goku and Hit was pretty deep considering this is Dragon Ball we're talking about.

[ChronoTwigger]

Black should have tentacles.

I wonder if 4Kids would change Black Goku to Blue.

"Nervous about climatic changes" Goku.

I suggest people to keep low expectations, the first episode could be darker, but then Trunks will face Happy Goku and Funny Vegeta (+Jaco, +Monaka, +Princess Piccolo).

[Kuririn Fan]

Dragon Ball peaked in popularity with Piccolo, Saiyan/Freeza and Android/Cell sagas. That's all there needs to be said really. All the "dark emo" jokes won't change that, neither will injecting even more toilet humor and turning the show into self-parody.

It became popular with 21st TB and peaked with Freeza.
Dragon Ball is at its best when it combines both comedy and "dark" stuff.

[ChronoTwigger]

Maybe for DARK people means DRAMATIC.
To have a real menace and the risk everything will end.

Freeza had this. A great menace you had to defeat, NO WAY to defeat him, and a risk to take.
The fight was uncertain, and the whole galaxy risk to fall under Freeza talons.

This was DRAMATIC.
Androids wasn't, and Buu not even while they tried for (but power levels was so high so no risk at all - and free resurrections for everyone!).

But I dunno if this Black Goku will be dramatic at all. Creating a real sense of danger and risks to take.

[HeroR]

Maybe for DARK people means DRAMATIC.
To have a real menace and the risk everything will end.

Freeza had this. A great menace you had to defeat, NO WAY to defeat him, and a risk to take.
The fight was uncertain, and the whole galaxy risk to fall under Freeza talons.

This was DRAMATIC.
Androids wasn't, and Buu not even while they tried for (but power levels was so high so no risk at all - and free resurrections for everyone!).

But I dunno if this Black Goku will be dramatic at all. Creating a real sense of danger and risks to take.

The whole galaxy wasn't at risk of falling into Freeza's hands since he practically owned the universe. And the end of the Cell Games were dramatic since Goku was dead, Trunks was dead, Gohan was injured, Vegeta was useless, and Cell was back stronger than ever and vowed to become an universal terror. The Dragon Balls meant nothing if everyone died.

Buu was an universal threat where, in the anime, we saw him destroy several planets within a span of a few minutes. He then went to Otherworld and was going to kill all the dead fighters, which would erased them from existence.

Freeza was dramatic for the heroes in a personal way, while Cell and Buu would have been universal terrors since they wanted to destroy the universe where as Freeza was already Empire of the Universe, and had no chance for immortality by the time he confronted the heroes.

[Vados_chan]

The Buu saga was the worst saga in DBZ, and is the catalyst for everything we've gotten since. I hardy think it had a good balance. The whole Gotenks bit was terrible and undercut the drama.

Mind you, I still like most of it (absolutely love the Kid Buu arc) and think it's miles better than anything in GT and Super.

No Cell saga was since after that Z fans thought that what it should be like all the time. Buu was DB going back to it's roots since AT knew he was ending it and wanted to go back to the style that made him famous before he started DB.

Dragon Ball peaked in popularity with Piccolo, Saiyan/Freeza and Android/Cell sagas. That's all there needs to be said really. All the "dark emo" jokes won't change that, neither will injecting even more toilet humor and turning the show into self-parody.

lol going with the popular=good defense.

I guess Adele is the best thing since the Beatles then.

[ChronoTwigger]

Freeza was dramatic for the heroes in a personal way, while Cell and Buu would have been universal terrors since they wanted to destroy the universe where as Freeza was already Empire of the Universe, and had no chance for immortality by the time he confronted the heroes.

And if wasn't dramatic for characters, how could be dramatic for me? I don't care how much someone is "strong", but how the acts are depicted.
After Frieza, the show turned to be less dramatic and more action oriented.
Dramatic IS NOT blood-spilling.

I remember to had FEAR of Vegeta and Nappa touching Earth surface (drama)
And I remember told "what super move they will use now?" about Buu (action)

It's not bad anyway, just different, but I hardly guess they could reproduce that "fear" feeling with power levels so far.

[HeroR]

Freeza was dramatic for the heroes in a personal way, while Cell and Buu would have been universal terrors since they wanted to destroy the universe where as Freeza was already Empire of the Universe, and had no chance for immortality by the time he confronted the heroes.

And if wasn't dramatic for characters, how could be dramatic for me? I don't care how much someone is "strong", but how the acts are depicted.
After Frieza, the show turned to be less dramatic and more action oriented.
Dramatic IS NOT blood-spilling.

I remember to had FEAR of Vegeta and Nappa touching Earth surface (drama)
And I remember told "what super move they will use now?" about Buu (action)

It's not bad anyway, just different, but I hardly guess they could reproduce that "fear" feeling with power levels so far.

May I asked, how old were you when you watched the Saiyan Saga compared to when you watched the Buu Saga? Because I never personality feared the Saiyans even when they were slaughtering everyone. I did feel fear with Freeza the moment he survived a Spirit Bomb and began killing everyone, unnerved by Cell when he sucked down a man with his tail and survived his own self-destruction and broke everyone's spirit, and Buu turning the cast into chocolate and eating them. I never felt the same dread with the Saiyans.

[fadeddreams5]

The Buu saga was the worst saga in DBZ, and is the catalyst for everything we've gotten since. I hardy think it had a good balance. The whole Gotenks bit was terrible and undercut the drama.

Mind you, I still like most of it (absolutely love the Kid Buu arc) and think it's miles better than anything in GT and Super.

No Cell saga was since after that Z fans thought that what it should be like all the time. Buu was DB going back to it's roots since AT knew he was ending it and wanted to go back to the style that made him famous before he started DB.

You make it seem like the Cell saga started the trend of a "darker" DBZ. The Bardock special came out before this arc aired, as well as several Toei movies that already took that approach. Besides, the Cell saga wasn't that much darker than the Piccolo-Frieza ones. In a series where characters are showcased training to overcome major odds that threaten the existence of the universe, this sort of tone just fits better, imo.

The Buu saga didn't really go back to any roots. Maybe the roots of Toriyama as a gag manga artist, but it's not at all like early DB. Like I mentioned before, though, I still like it.

[Kuririn Fan]

Freeza was dramatic for the heroes in a personal way, while Cell and Buu would have been universal terrors since they wanted to destroy the universe where as Freeza was already Empire of the Universe, and had no chance for immortality by the time he confronted the heroes.

And if wasn't dramatic for characters, how could be dramatic for me? I don't care how much someone is "strong", but how the acts are depicted.
After Frieza, the show turned to be less dramatic and more action oriented.
Dramatic IS NOT blood-spilling.

I remember to had FEAR of Vegeta and Nappa touching Earth surface (drama)
And I remember told "what super move they will use now?" about Buu (action)

It's not bad anyway, just different, but I hardly guess they could reproduce that "fear" feeling with power levels so far.

All Namekians were dead, so no Dragon Balls, Piccolo was seriously injured so they were about to lose Earth's Dragon Balls as well. Most of the Z warriors dead. That was rough, maybe the most difficult situation.