What material is included in Super but is NOT by Toriyama?

[Miracles]

Toriyama writes the plot for Super.
He does it and checks the storyboards for each chapter.
These are truths.

[TheMikado]

And of course, it's a promotional manga, so there's always the chance it skips over parts of Toriyama's scenario just to cover the essential parts in time.

I really doubt he skips anything. We were told that he takes Toriyama's story draft & expands on it, with no mention of skipping anything. But we've seen that he doesn't expand on everything in detail, like the finale of the U6 arc.

I doubt things are skipped as well but the stories are simultaneously too similar and too different to be anything more than a vague sequence of events in my opinion.

The thing that convinced me of this was the SSG vs SSB X 10 KK vs Goku x10 > Vegeta. If this was part of Toriyamas idea the information he wrote would likely have said Goku x10 stronger than Vegeta for literally no reason at all other than it being listed as a point to hit. Other things like Trunks spar with Goku etc lead me to the same conclusion.

[TheMikado]

Toriyama writes the plot for Super.
He does it and checks the storyboards for each chapter.
These are truths.

I'm not sure that's accurate which is what we are discussing. His true level of involvement particularly with the anime is not properly explained and likely left as vague and exaggerated as possible on purpose in my opinion.

[Ajay]

I really doubt he skips anything.

I doubt things are skipped as well

To be clear, I doubt that as well, but my point is that we don't actually know. We can't say anything with any certainty.

You don't think there's a non-zero chance that, sometime after Super has ended, we'll get a look at Toriyama's draft materials? Those would kind of be the holy grail for a guide-book inclusion at this point.

There's always a chance, absolutely, but sometimes they're very weird about what they put out and what's kept under wraps. Who knows!

[DBZGTKOSDH]

You don't think there's a non-zero chance that, sometime after Super has ended, we'll get a look at Toriyama's draft materials? Those would kind of be the holy grail for a guide-book inclusion at this point.

There's always a chance, absolutely, but sometimes they're very weird about what they put out and what's kept under wraps. Who knows!

We got Toriyama's script for Resurrection"F", so I would say anything is possible.

[Miracles]

Toriyama writes the plot for Super.
He does it and checks the storyboards for each chapter.
These are truths.

I'm not sure that's accurate which is what we are discussing. His true level of involvement particularly with the anime is not properly explained and likely left as vague and exaggerated as possible on purpose in my opinion.

No need for discussion or opinions because.....

“Dragon Ball Super” is a complete continuation of the Majin Boo story arc. It’s got a bit of post-battle aftermath, continues with the “Battle of Gods” arc where the God of Destruction Beerus appears and the “Revival of ‘F'” arc where Freeza comes back to life, and then, I’ve written a strange new story where they finally depart from this universe........"

Is not vague but definite.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2015/07/01/dr ... ries-plot/

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Toriyama writes the plot for Super.
He does it and checks the storyboards for each chapter.
These are truths.

I'm not sure that's accurate which is what we are discussing. His true level of involvement particularly with the anime is not properly explained and likely left as vague and exaggerated as possible on purpose in my opinion.

No need for discussion or opinions because.....

“Dragon Ball Super” is a complete continuation of the Majin Boo story arc. It’s got a bit of post-battle aftermath, continues with the “Battle of Gods” arc where the God of Destruction Beerus appears and the “Revival of ‘F'” arc where Freeza comes back to life, and then, I’ve written a strange new story where they finally depart from this universe........"

Is not vague but definite.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2015/07/01/dr ... ries-plot/

Also:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2016/05/09/fu ... all-super/

Next up in Dragon Ball Super, adult Trunks will be putting in his first appearance in a long time! I put together this story based on a suggestion from the editorial office. Like last time, I write an outline of the entire plot, then the script writers break it up into episodes, expanding on things, changing things around, or adding in new bits as need be.

[Miracles]

I'm not sure that's accurate which is what we are discussing. His true level of involvement particularly with the anime is not properly explained and likely left as vague and exaggerated as possible on purpose in my opinion.

No need for discussion or opinions because.....

“Dragon Ball Super” is a complete continuation of the Majin Boo story arc. It’s got a bit of post-battle aftermath, continues with the “Battle of Gods” arc where the God of Destruction Beerus appears and the “Revival of ‘F'” arc where Freeza comes back to life, and then, I’ve written a strange new story where they finally depart from this universe........"

Is not vague but definite.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2015/07/01/dr ... ries-plot/

Also:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2016/05/09/fu ... all-super/

Next up in Dragon Ball Super, adult Trunks will be putting in his first appearance in a long time! I put together this story based on a suggestion from the editorial office. Like last time, I write an outline of the entire plot, then the script writers break it up into episodes, expanding on things, changing things around, or adding in new bits as need be.

Poetry in motion!

[Cetra]

Toriyama writes the plot for Super.
He does it and checks the storyboards for each chapter.
These are truths.

That has nothing to do with "truths". Ajay clearly pointed out that it is not clear how much he is involved and that it is kept vague on purpose. You even quoted something with the word "script writers" in it, which already shows Toriyama-san is not as alone as you think.

[TheMikado]

No need for discussion or opinions because.....

“Dragon Ball Super” is a complete continuation of the Majin Boo story arc. It’s got a bit of post-battle aftermath, continues with the “Battle of Gods” arc where the God of Destruction Beerus appears and the “Revival of ‘F'” arc where Freeza comes back to life, and then, I’ve written a strange new story where they finally depart from this universe........"

Is not vague but definite.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2015/07/01/dr ... ries-plot/

Also:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2016/05/09/fu ... all-super/

Next up in Dragon Ball Super, adult Trunks will be putting in his first appearance in a long time! I put together this story based on a suggestion from the editorial office. Like last time, I write an outline of the entire plot, then the script writers break it up into episodes, expanding on things, changing things around, or adding in new bits as need be.

Poetry in motion!

I feel like you guys aren't understanding what is being written at all.
"I put together this story based on a suggestion from the editorial office." i.e. NOT Toriyama's idea
"Like last time, I write an outline of the entire plot" Again like LAST TIME , he wrote an OUTLINE.
An outline can be a series of bulletpoints or nearly rival a book in length. The anime and manga differ so greatly that it leans more towards bulletpoints.
Furthermore if there were an extremely detailed outline, Toei would be trumpeting it from here to kingdom come like they did with the movies.
"then the script writers break it up into episodes, expanding on things, changing things around, or adding in new bits as need be." - again things being added or removed as the scriptwriters see fit. THERE IS NO INDICATION that these changes are sent back to Toriyama for review.

Based on everything we've seen even comments from Toriyama on the anime production and not seeing final scripts here's how I imagined it happened:

In a fancy restaurant somewhere in Japan:
Toei Exec: The movies were so popular we would like to do another series
Toriyama: I love Dragonball but not sure I can commit that much effort into it.
Toei Exec: Don't worry we have a team of writers and animators to back you up. We just need your name on it to avoid another GT fiasco.
Toriyama: I'm not sure...
Toei Exec: Tell you what, we will even have them pitch ideas for you!
Toei Writer: Yeah we could do something like making Goku a God! (I believe there was an interview we Toriyama states the idea for Gods can from editors/writers)
Toei Editor: Yeah, and can we bring Future Trunks back? He polls really highly with our demographic.
Toei Writer: And Evil clones! Everyone loves evil clones! We can make evil clones of everyone!
Toriyama: Maybe just one evil clone for a good reason...
Toei Exec: Look just write a little something on this piece of paper and sign it for us. We've got bags of money and we will follow your outline.

"Toriyama writes outline and hands it to Exec and leaves"
Toei Exec: Well he brought back Future Trunks but only put one Goku clone in.
Toei Writer: Don't worry, we'll add a few more. I've got an idea for a Gooey Vegeta that's sure to be popular.
Toei Exec: What's this about Goku 10x stronger than Vegeta? He's one of our most popular characters! We can't make him a weakling.
Toei Writer: I've got this. 10x Kaioken!
Toer Exec: I don't even know what that is but it sounds perfect. No need to send the revisions to Toriyama, he can be surprised like everyone else when he see's it on TV. The sucker fan base will eat up anything with Toriyama's name on it, we've got them this time!


Obviously I'm exaggerating, but I imagine, based on both the manga and anime based on the same outline that they cannot be working from a detailed list script and Toriyama specifically says he didn't write it anyway and that the editorial staff makes suggestion for the stories in the first place. Anyway the point is his involvement and is left vague on purpose and getting Toriyama's name on it was likely one of Toei's highest priorities.

[OLKv3]

Copy Vegeta arc
Gohan training with Piccolo after RoF
Piccolo dying in RoF
Ginyu returning in RoF

Goku still having SSG
Goku having KKx10

[YonedgeHP]

Copy Vegeta arc
Gohan training with Piccolo after RoF
Piccolo dying in RoF
Ginyu returning in RoF

Goku still having SSG
Goku having KKx10

I do not think so, it is not known thus not confirmed if is Toriyama material or not.

[Miracles]

Toriyama writes the plot for Super.
He does it and checks the storyboards for each chapter.
These are truths.

That has nothing to do with "truths". Ajay clearly pointed out that it is not clear how much he is involved and that it is kept vague on purpose. You even quoted something with the word "script writers" in it, which already shows Toriyama-san is not as alone as you think.

Doesn't matter if Toriyama is alone or with 100 people, he has "written" the story for Super.
This tells us how much he is involved, this has nothing to do with vague, but factual truth.

Also:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2016/05/09/fu ... all-super/

Poetry in motion!

I feel like you guys aren't understanding what is being written at all.
"I put together this story based on a suggestion from the editorial office."[/b] i.e. NOT Toriyama's idea
"Like last time, I write an outline of the entire plot" Again like LAST TIME , he wrote an OUTLINE.
An outline can be a series of bulletpoints or nearly rival a book in length. The anime and manga differ so greatly that it leans more towards bulletpoints.
Furthermore if there were an extremely detailed outline, Toei would be trumpeting it from here to kingdom come like they did with the movies.
"then the script writers break it up into episodes, expanding on things, changing things around, or adding in new bits as need be." - again things being added or removed as the scriptwriters see fit. THERE IS NO INDICATION that these changes are sent back to Toriyama for review.

Based on everything we've seen even comments from Toriyama on the anime production and not seeing final scripts here's how I imagined it happened:

In a fancy restaurant somewhere in Japan:
Toei Exec: The movies were so popular we would like to do another series
Toriyama: I love Dragonball but not sure I can commit that much effort into it.
Toei Exec: Don't worry we have a team of writers and animators to back you up. We just need your name on it to avoid another GT fiasco.
Toriyama: I'm not sure...
Toei Exec: Tell you what, we will even have them pitch ideas for you!
Toei Writer: Yeah we could do something like making Goku a God! (I believe there was an interview we Toriyama states the idea for Gods can from editors/writers)
Toei Editor: Yeah, and can we bring Future Trunks back? He polls really highly with our demographic.
Toei Writer: And Evil clones! Everyone loves evil clones! We can make evil clones of everyone!
Toriyama: Maybe just one evil clone for a good reason...
Toei Exec: Look just write a little something on this piece of paper and sign it for us. We've got bags of money and we will follow your outline.

"Toriyama writes outline and hands it to Exec and leaves"
Toei Exec: Well he brought back Future Trunks but only put one Goku clone in.
Toei Writer: Don't worry, we'll add a few more. I've got an idea for a Gooey Vegeta that's sure to be popular.
Toei Exec: What's this about Goku 10x stronger than Vegeta? He's one of our most popular characters! We can't make him a weakling.
Toei Writer: I've got this. 10x Kaioken!
Toer Exec: I don't even know what that is but it sounds perfect. No need to send the revisions to Toriyama, he can be surprised like everyone else when he see's it on TV. The sucker fan base will eat up anything with Toriyama's name on it, we've got them this time!


Obviously I'm exaggerating, but I imagine, based on both the manga and anime based on the same outline that they cannot be working from a detailed list script and Toriyama specifically says he didn't write it anyway and that the editorial staff makes suggestion for the stories in the first place. Anyway the point is his involvement and is left vague on purpose and getting Toriyama's name on it was likely one of Toei's highest priorities.

Yeah because...
"...I have written a new story..,"
and...
" ...I write an outline of the entire plot..."
Is vague concerning Toriyama's involvement.

[TheMikado]

^ youre right this isn't vague at all:

OUTLINE

Noun:
2.
a general description or plan giving the essential features of something but not the detail.
"an outline of the theory of evolution"
synonyms: rough idea, thumbnail sketch, (quick) rundown, summary, synopsis, résumé, précis; essence, main/key points, gist, (bare) bones, draft, sketch
"an outline of expenditure for each department

"

[TheMikado]

Also you should probably read this. This is about BoG production with Toriyama . The idea for gods and all that WASNT EVEN HIS IDEA.

With what stance did you approach your work?
To be honest, I was busy as it was with just my own job1, so I didn’t intend to get involved with the animation. The rough script I read in order to check it over had an interesting-sounding theme of a God of Destruction, but the contents were a little dark, so while I was in the midst of giving advice on how to improve it, I got carried away and ended up writing almost everything. For the character designs, as well, I had an image of them to a certain extent while I was thinking up the contents [of the movie], so I decided that it would be faster to just draw them myself rather than asking for this or that.
About the movie-original characters

When you heard “God of Destruction”, what ideas did you suggest, Toriyama-sensei?
The God of Destruction I [initially] received was a malevolent, dark character. For a twisted guy like me, I took the stereotypical image you’d think of from the name “God of Destruction”, then went ahead and reversed everything, leaving only his fearsomeness. My style is to first tear down the image, then think up the contents. Also, there was a request to have the whole cast appear since it was the first animation in a while, so that’s how the contents came about.
Did you make any requests for the direction of Beerus’ battle?
I did generally write in a rough idea of their exchanges, but apart from that, I left the battle scenes up to the people on the anime staff. They’ve been doing Dragon Ball for a long time, and I believed that leaving the animation up to talented professionals would result in something much better than thinking it up for myself. And it was just the kind of quality I expected.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... -toriyama/

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Kamehameha & Fusion weren't his ideas either, what's your point? It doesn't matter what ideas he uses, what matters is what stories he is writing. He rewrote the BoG script, wrote the FnF script, and has written story drafts for the new Super story arcs. He may not write entire dialogues or the entire fights, but it's obvious from comparing the similarities between the anime & the manga that the core story is written by him. So, we know almost exactly how involved he is.

[Helios518]

Kamehameha & Fusion weren't his ideas either, what's your point? It doesn't matter what ideas he uses, what matters is what stories he is writing. He rewrote the BoG script, wrote the FnF script, and has written story drafts for the new Super story arcs. He may not write entire dialogues or the entire fights, but it's obvious from comparing the similarities between the anime & the manga that the core story is written by him. So, we know almost exactly how involved he is.

AT rewrote BoG's script like the movie? Do we know why and what he changed?

[Cetra]

Doesn't matter if Toriyama is alone or with 100 people, he has "written" the story for Super.
This tells us how much he is involved, this has nothing to do with vague, but factual truth.

Err, not really in the ultimate and universal way you claim it to be. Your "factual truth" is an incredibly foggy thing. Neither does is tell us how much he was involved in the writing process nor do we no what the "factual truth" here is. If I want to write a story about a sad bear who wants to see the world and I write a brief summary because I don't have the time, dedication or skill and then decide to write something, maybe even only consisting of some core aspects, then I have written something, yes. That does not make me the ultimate story writer though. If there was a guy or many guys after that who actually flesh it out, et cetera,then they might even end up being more of the writers than me. Toriyama-san has written "something"; yes. But even a person that says "here, I have those 10 points, write a story about it" has written something. You cannot be serious that that person is more of a writer than the person who has to build a story based on those 10 points. Seeing how many moments are even incredibly different in manga and anime we can conclude that some of those moments mentioned by Toriyama-san even consist of stuff like "Goku fights Hit. Hit can freeze time. In the end, Goku gives up." And that's it. And if we want to be really honest - we do not even know how much inspiration Toyble gets from the anime. So it might even be possible that some of the things that are similiar were not even included as bullet points. We do not know how big Toriyama-san's involvement is. And we will not know it as long as they don't say it. That was done on purpose so people would think "oh he is involved, that means he does everything". And it is Toei wanting Toriyama-san to be involved here, not vice-versa. So they take what they get. And as things are, Toriyama-san could have written just bullet points or short drafts/summaries/whatever and the rest of the writers could still have to flesh it out completely, maybe even add half of Dragon Ball Super to it. Totally unknown. Do not believe he wrote everything plus the dialogue around it.

[TheMikado]

^ I think that's where I'm getting at. Toriyama didn't approach Toei and say I've got this great idea for a new DBZ movie.

Toei (to my knowledge and what's implied in interviews) literally wrote a draft scrip without Toriyama input at all and said Hey we've got this idea to make Goku a God and fight Gods of destruction since that seems to be in right now. We need your involvement in this.

My point is that this ridiculous idea of canon and creators intentions as some sort of purity test is incredibly ridiculous due to the fact that much of the newer scenarios and plot ideas ARENT Toriyama's ideas!

It wasn't even his idea to go into the God realms like this at all. This isn't some burning story he wanted to tell to continue the series. It was pitched to Toriyama by Toei writers and executives. I'm not complaining about it at all but the idea that all this concepts sprang from Toriyams God Sensei incredibly creative mind is fanatism and fan fiction. It's really just super weird to take that approach because his name is vaguely attached to the project.

[OLKv3]

Copy Vegeta arc
Gohan training with Piccolo after RoF
Piccolo dying in RoF
Ginyu returning in RoF

Goku still having SSG
Goku having KKx10

I do not think so, it is not known thus not confirmed if is Toriyama material or not.

All of those events were completely ignored or contradicted in later arcs. It's clear they're not from Toriyama and were made up by Toei or Toyo.