Could kid Goten and Trunks beat Namek-era Freeza?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Not really, on Revival of F it is implied by Tagoma that Base Gohan was the greatest threat to their army, before it was known he could transform into SSJ, which heavily implies that Base Gohan was even stronger than Piccolo, who can atomize Freeza with less than a tenth of his power at this point in the series. Since Gohan lost his ultimate power-up and returned to his Boo arc power on RoF, then it means Base Saiyans being below Freeza is an impossibility and probably a contradiction.

Since Goten and Trunks are not far off from Teen Gohan even before the RoSaT, and are implied to have powered up decently after it, Goten and Trunks both atomizing Freeza without effort in their base forms is not unlkely. Their Super Saiyan forms are also implied to be considerably stronger than Piccolo, since he states in the manga that the squirts are the only hope the Earth has left against Boo, before Fusion is mentioned by Goku.



Gohan had no "clear advantage" against Goten. They were both fighting almost evenly, and Gohan's face heavily suggests that he couldn't beat Goten with ease the way he was in the moment, which is heavily unlikely if Gohan had such a huge lead on his younger brother. It is also stated that if Goten trained, he could surpass Gohan soon, which implies a small gap between them.

They're not going to fight all out in a sparring session, in a serious all out fight Gohan could kill Goten very quickly. Also, the Goten surpassing Gohan thing is most likely a reference to young half-saiyans being able to gain power extremely fast, when Gohan was around Goten's age he went from a few thousand to several hundreds of thousands in a matter of weeks so with that kind of growth rate even if Goten was at 60% of Gohan he could close the gap very quickly through training. This kinda leads me to wonder what would happen if Old Kai unlocked Goten's potential back then and created Ultimate Goten.

What's the proof Gohan wasn't going all-out? His expression and powered-up aura heavily suggests otherwise. He was clearly having a lot of trouble with his younger brother, which shouldn't be the cause if he had a 40% lead on hi✓.

Gohan having a troubled expression is no indication of power, at this point he's really out of shape and is even worried by Base Goten throwing rocks at him while he's SSJ, and he should have no problem dodging rocks from someone who's more than 50x weaker than him, yet he doubles the distance between Goten and himself and still has to practice to get the hang of dodging those rocks.

[Ash57]

I will counter Kaboom and you tomorrow, too tired right now.

[Kaboom]

There's really nothing to "counter" or any argument to be made. One can choose to ignore the twice-stated line from Beerus if they wish because they don't like it for whatever reason. But it means what it means, is not contradictory to anything else previously established, and has not since been "retconned" in any way. Nobody has any problem with it except strength-enthusiast fans who place too much value on their own interpretations of certain things from the Majin Boo arc.

There's no point to any debate. It'd be much better to return to discussion and opinion about Goten and Trunks.

[Darkprince410]

[

A Kaioshin shouldn't be thrown into panic by guys who were weaker than a person he could one-shot(Freeza)

There is also this evidence, which i put together a few hours ago;

Not really, on Revival of F it is implied by Tagoma that Base Gohan was the greatest threat to their army, before it was known he could transform into SSJ, which heavily implies that Base Gohan was even stronger than Piccolo, who can atomize Freeza with less than a tenth of his power at this point in the series. Since Gohan lost his ultimate power-up and returned to his Boo arc power on RoF, then it means Base Saiyans being below Freeza is an impossibility and probably a contradiction.

This proves that either;
1) Beerus was severely overestimating what Freeza was capable of, which is supported by the fact that he stated that "defeating Freeza was all that you(talking about Super Saiyan Goku) could accomplish" even though Goku at this point can take out foes who are dozens of times stronger than Freeza. And don't say that Beerus had nobody else to compare Goku to, because he had East Kaioshin, who was faaar above Freeza.
2) Beerus didn't know what Freeza could do at his full power
3) The statement was retconned.

Which means Base Saiyans being weaker than Freeza is no longer a fact.

1) Kaioushin just watched Goku suddenly pull Ssj2 out to destroy Yakon, and that's what he was amazed by. He's amazed by the power they're pulling out due to their transformations (i.e. what they could pull out "in a pinch") not their base forms.

2) Gohan didn't lose the full extent of his Rou Kaioushin power-up. His lack of training locked a good portion of that away again, but he was still substantially more powerful than he was beforehand. The power-up wasn't something that he could simply lose instantly and be right back to where he was at the Buu arc. It was the unlocking of his potential and then some, not simply an ability that one could snap their fingers and lose. He'd have to lose all that power through lack of training and activity, something that wasn't indicated to have completely happened. Did he get weaker in his base than he was before at the full extent of his post-power-up state? Sure. But there's no indication that he lost ALL that power.

[TheUltimateNinja]

At best, the stuff from the Majin Boo arc only implies that the base Saiyans are above the likes of Eighteen, Piccolo, and Kaioshin, and thus also Freeza. They don't measure up against such a straightforward and direct power statement like the one from Beerus, and in light of it can be easily interpreted in other ways.

Also, Beerus' statement was about Goku, and Gohan is not Goku. Despite acting like Ultimate Gohan's superiority to Goku in the Boo arc never happened, these modern Toei productions still seem to know on some level that Gohan is supposed to be significantly stronger than usual even without transforming. All that either version of it tells us is that Gohan no longer has access to his "full power," and needs to use Super Saiyan instead — Claiming that he's completely lost his Boo-arc improvement and returned to his pre-ultimate power level and structure is a big assumption.

Besides, I've seen the episode too. Tagoma shot Gohan and made the "strongest enemy" comment as Gohan was powering up, either to go Super Saiyan or to simply stop heavily restraining himself like he and all the other heroes were up to that point. It's tricky to use that entire chunk of the arc for any power-related argument when all the heroes were purposely using something less than their full power, especially the extra-strong Gohan and Piccolo.

Any way you slice it, "base" Gohan's confusing power placement in the Super adaptation of Freeza's return has no bearing on base Goku's power placement in Battle of Gods or its own Super adaptation. Heck, if Toei's writers for Super were so anxious to squash the notion of "base Saiyans < Freeza," why would they keep Beerus' line for Super in the first place? Why not replace it with something about Goku's surface-level appearance instead?

Despite how much some fans want it to be, Beerus' assessment of base Goku's strength is not contradictory to anything before or after its first utterance in Battle of Gods.

Speaking of Gohan's Super Saiyan, do you think it still has the full 50x multiplier? Or perhaps you believe the remnants of his Potential Unlock don't allow that? Because if he's already stronger than Piccolo in Base and becomes 50x stronger as SSJ and 1st Form Frieza is much stronger than even that, that makes Frieza's power up even more absurd. Also, what do you think the gap is between Frieza's first and final forms? Because it's most likely much smaller than the 200x+ gap it was initially.

[Analytic]

Feared for her life? I doubt that.

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P12.4, P13.1
Context: after Trunks’ ki blast explodes
No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”

#18 outright says that it is dangerous for her if she continues fighting in the match, and then immediately uses an extremely risky attack (Kienzan) to cut Goten and Trunks' outfit in half and disqualify them as opposed to more safely just knocking them out of the ring.

Gohan has not trained for 7 years his fighting style would be very sloppy. Goku even said it himself when he was fighting Dabura.

I wouldn't say that Gohan's fighting sloppy fighting style would cause him to struggle with someone considerably weaker than he is, especially considering that Goten likely has even less skill than Gohan.

I forgot to add didn't they fight again and Gohan beat him without any difficulty?

Would you consider this to be one-sided by any means?

Kaioushin just watched Goku suddenly pull Ssj2 out to destroy Yakon, and that's what he was amazed by. He's amazed by the power they're pulling out due to their transformations (i.e. what they could pull out "in a pinch") not their base forms.

He actually was amazed by their base forms (after Vegeta defeats Pocus: "Th-that can’t be…Th-they’re this [strong]…"), though I don't necessarily think that is enough to conclude that East Kaioshin is weaker than the base Saiyans and Pocus/Yakon.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Feared for her life? I doubt that.

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P12.4, P13.1
Context: after Trunks’ ki blast explodes
No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”

#18 outright says that it is dangerous for her if she continues fighting in the match, and then immediately uses an extremely risky attack (Kienzan) to cut Goten and Trunks' outfit in half and disqualify them as opposed to more safely just knocking them out of the ring.

Gohan has not trained for 7 years his fighting style would be very sloppy. Goku even said it himself when he was fighting Dabura.

I wouldn't say that Gohan's fighting sloppy fighting style would cause him to struggle with someone considerably weaker than he is, especially considering that Goten likely has even less skill than Gohan.

I forgot to add didn't they fight again and Gohan beat him without any difficulty?

Would you consider this to be one-sided by any means?

Kaioushin just watched Goku suddenly pull Ssj2 out to destroy Yakon, and that's what he was amazed by. He's amazed by the power they're pulling out due to their transformations (i.e. what they could pull out "in a pinch") not their base forms.

He actually was amazed by their base forms (after Vegeta defeats Pocus: "Th-that can’t be…Th-they’re this [strong]…"), though I don't necessarily think that is enough to conclude that East Kaioshin is weaker than the base Saiyans and Pocus/Yakon.

This would imply that the gap between Trunks and Vegeta is actually smaller than the gap between Goten and Gohan as after their sparring session Goten says he couldn't land a single hit on Gohan whereas Trunks is able to score a blow on Vegeta's face fairly quickly.

[Perfectionist-Cell]

Feared for her life? I doubt that.

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P12.4, P13.1
Context: after Trunks’ ki blast explodes
No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”

#18 outright says that it is dangerous for her if she continues fighting in the match, and then immediately uses an extremely risky attack (Kienzan) to cut Goten and Trunks' outfit in half and disqualify them as opposed to more safely just knocking them out of the ring.

Gohan has not trained for 7 years his fighting style would be very sloppy. Goku even said it himself when he was fighting Dabura.

I wouldn't say that Gohan's fighting sloppy fighting style would cause him to struggle with someone considerably weaker than he is, especially considering that Goten likely has even less skill than Gohan.

I forgot to add didn't they fight again and Gohan beat him without any difficulty?

Would you consider this to be one-sided by any means?

Kaioushin just watched Goku suddenly pull Ssj2 out to destroy Yakon, and that's what he was amazed by. He's amazed by the power they're pulling out due to their transformations (i.e. what they could pull out "in a pinch") not their base forms.

He actually was amazed by their base forms (after Vegeta defeats Pocus: "Th-that can’t be…Th-they’re this [strong]…"), though I don't necessarily think that is enough to conclude that East Kaioshin is weaker than the base Saiyans and Pocus/Yakon.

I think she was afraid because they could potentially destroy the ring and yes i was referring to that. In the anime that training match was a little stretch on and was turned into a sparring match that Gohan won.

[ahill1]

No way, even BoG Goku's base was below Frieza, there's no chance the kids who are much weaker could do anything to Frieza.

I don't take into account BoG or any of these new materials when talking about the manga. In the Boo saga there's enough evidence that the base Saiyans are far above Freeza.

There really isn't though, at least nothing that can't be readily countered in one form or another.

Yes, there's. I really don't want to start a Freeza vs base Saiyans debate, but to say there's not evidence is a blatant lie. They might be counterable (or twisted, I don't know), but I prefer to take these implications over a statement made by Toriyama nearly 20 years after the end of the manga, even more when in Super there are heavily implications of Goku (Boo saga) being above Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks, while the opposite is explictly showed and stated in the original manga.

If you want to take the statement from Beerus, fine, do your way, but I rather go with the implications of the original manga.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I don't take into account BoG or any of these new materials when talking about the manga. In the Boo saga there's enough evidence that the base Saiyans are far above Freeza.

There really isn't though, at least nothing that can't be readily countered in one form or another.

Yes, there's. I really don't want to start a Freeza vs base Saiyans debate, but to say there's not evidence is a blatant lie. They might be counterable (or twisted, I don't know), but I prefer to take these implications over a statement made by Toriyama nearly 20 years after the end of the manga, even more when in Super there are heavily implications of Goku (Boo saga) being above Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks, while the opposite is explictly showed and stated in the original manga.

If you want to take the statement from Beerus, fine, do your way, but I rather go with the implications of the original manga.

What exactly implies that Goku became stronger than Frieza in the original manga?

[Kaboom]

Speaking of Gohan's Super Saiyan, do you think it still has the full 50x multiplier? Or perhaps you believe the remnants of his Potential Unlock don't allow that? Because if he's already stronger than Piccolo in Base and becomes 50x stronger as SSJ and 1st Form Frieza is much stronger than even that, that makes Frieza's power up even more absurd.

Probably not. I think it's more likely, and cumulatively makes more sense, that Gohan's power is kind of half-and-half. He's still got access to some of his previous "Ultimate" power without transforming, but needs Super Saiyan to get anywhere close to his prior maximum. His power was drastically rearranged via the Old Kaioshin's ritual, and now it almost seems like that's working against him.

Also, what do you think the gap is between Frieza's first and final forms? Because it's most likely much smaller than the 200x+ gap it was initially.

Beats me. Freeza's forms have always seemed "custom-made," so I wouldn't be surprised if he's ditched most of them save for his true form and most-suppressed one, and the proportions between all of them have changed a lot.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Speaking of Gohan's Super Saiyan, do you think it still has the full 50x multiplier? Or perhaps you believe the remnants of his Potential Unlock don't allow that? Because if he's already stronger than Piccolo in Base and becomes 50x stronger as SSJ and 1st Form Frieza is much stronger than even that, that makes Frieza's power up even more absurd.

Probably not. I think it's more likely, and cumulatively makes more sense, that Gohan's power is kind of half-and-half. He's still got access to some of his previous "Ultimate" power without transforming, but needs Super Saiyan to get anywhere close to his prior maximum. His power was drastically rearranged via the Old Kaioshin's ritual, and now it almost seems like that's working against him.

Does this mean that Gohan's potential has actually been hampered by the unlock? Because while the other Saiyans can greatly increase their Base Power and then multiply it with the SSJ states for even more power, Gohan already has a large portion of his full power available in Base and SSJ doesn't power him up that much, so proportionally his gains from training should be much lower.

[Kaboom]

Yeah, that's something I've thought about too. The high-energy, high-powered Super Saiyan state seems to be a good means of training based on what we've seen in the past. So Gohan having his power neatly arranged for him in a form that's easy to use might actually be a detriment to his ability to grow through training. Of course, it's always been possible that he could always go Super Saiyan sans extra power on top of Ultimate, and maybe reap that training benefit anyway.

[DanielSSJ]

Speaking of Gohan's Super Saiyan, do you think it still has the full 50x multiplier? Or perhaps you believe the remnants of his Potential Unlock don't allow that? Because if he's already stronger than Piccolo in Base and becomes 50x stronger as SSJ and 1st Form Frieza is much stronger than even that, that makes Frieza's power up even more absurd.

Probably not. I think it's more likely, and cumulatively makes more sense, that Gohan's power is kind of half-and-half. He's still got access to some of his previous "Ultimate" power without transforming, but needs Super Saiyan to get anywhere close to his prior maximum. His power was drastically rearranged via the Old Kaioshin's ritual, and now it almost seems like that's working against him.

Hey, maybe we can use that 10-fold increase everyone keeps bringing up.

[Analytic]

I think she was afraid because they could potentially destroy the ring

The blast was aimed at the ocean, far, far away from the ring or any people. How could she be worried for them if they're not in danger.

In the anime that training match was a little stretch on and was turned into a sparring match that Gohan won.

Okay, but scenes only from the anime really have no barring on manga discussions, especially when they are contradictory.

This would imply that the gap between Trunks and Vegeta is actually smaller than the gap between Goten and Gohan as after their sparring session Goten says he couldn't land a single hit on Gohan whereas Trunks is able to score a blow on Vegeta's face fairly quickly.

Not necessarily. Gohan was fresh in his sparring session with Goten, while Vegeta was shown sweating and in the middle of training when Trunks landed a hit on him, so it's very possible that Vegeta was slightly worn down from his intense gravity training when Trunks landed a hit on him.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I think she was afraid because they could potentially destroy the ring

The blast was aimed at the ocean, far, far away from the ring or any people. How could she be worried for them if they're not in danger.

In the anime that training match was a little stretch on and was turned into a sparring match that Gohan won.

Okay, but scenes only from the anime really have no barring on manga discussions, especially when they are contradictory.

This would imply that the gap between Trunks and Vegeta is actually smaller than the gap between Goten and Gohan as after their sparring session Goten says he couldn't land a single hit on Gohan whereas Trunks is able to score a blow on Vegeta's face fairly quickly.

Not necessarily. Gohan was fresh in his sparring session with Goten, while Vegeta was shown sweating and in the middle of training when Trunks landed a hit on him, so it's very possible that Vegeta was slightly worn down from his intense gravity training when Trunks landed a hit on him.

On the other hand, Trunks was in that gravity chamber too, in fact he started out in base so the effects on him would have been quite heavy. And Gohan at that point was so out of shape he was even having trouble dodging rocks from Base Goten while he was SSJ, so his fighting skill would have been far worse than Vegeta's.

Also, that "If I'm not careful they might surpass me soon," doesn't have to mean they're going to surpass him right then and there, it's far more likely that he means that if they keep training and he keeps slacking off they will eventually surpass him sometime in the near future, he knows firsthand how fast Saiyans can grow in power so even if Goten's still a good deal below him he still has reason to be worried.

[Perfectionist-Cell]

I think she was afraid because they could potentially destroy the ring

The blast was aimed at the ocean, far, far away from the ring or any people. How could she be worried for them if they're not in danger.

In the anime that training match was a little stretch on and was turned into a sparring match that Gohan won.

Okay, but scenes only from the anime really have no barring on manga discussions, especially when they are contradictory.

This would imply that the gap between Trunks and Vegeta is actually smaller than the gap between Goten and Gohan as after their sparring session Goten says he couldn't land a single hit on Gohan whereas Trunks is able to score a blow on Vegeta's face fairly quickly.

Not necessarily. Gohan was fresh in his sparring session with Goten, while Vegeta was shown sweating and in the middle of training when Trunks landed a hit on him, so it's very possible that Vegeta was slightly worn down from his intense gravity training when Trunks landed a hit on him.

1.The blast was aimed at 18 she moved out the way. I said potentially.


2. What is contradictory about that? Gohan has had super saiyan much longer and he is in fact stronger. Just because it is from the anime does not mean it doesn't make any sense.

[Perfectionist-Cell]

I think she was afraid because they could potentially destroy the ring

The blast was aimed at the ocean, far, far away from the ring or any people. How could she be worried for them if they're not in danger.

In the anime that training match was a little stretch on and was turned into a sparring match that Gohan won.

Okay, but scenes only from the anime really have no barring on manga discussions, especially when they are contradictory.

This would imply that the gap between Trunks and Vegeta is actually smaller than the gap between Goten and Gohan as after their sparring session Goten says he couldn't land a single hit on Gohan whereas Trunks is able to score a blow on Vegeta's face fairly quickly.

Not necessarily. Gohan was fresh in his sparring session with Goten, while Vegeta was shown sweating and in the middle of training when Trunks landed a hit on him, so it's very possible that Vegeta was slightly worn down from his intense gravity training when Trunks landed a hit on him.

On the other hand, Trunks was in that gravity chamber too, in fact he started out in base so the effects on him would have been quite heavy. And Gohan at that point was so out of shape he was even having trouble dodging rocks from Base Goten while he was SSJ, so his fighting skill would have been far worse than Vegeta's.

Also, that "If I'm not careful they might surpass me soon," doesn't have to mean they're going to surpass him right then and there, it's far more likely that he means that if they keep training and he keeps slacking off they will eventually surpass him sometime in the near future, he knows firsthand how fast Saiyans can grow in power so even if Goten's still a good deal below him he still has reason to be worried.

The moment Trunks went ssj in the chamber all his sweat disappeared also he was moving freely and on top of that he was motivated by Vegeta.

[Saturnine]

Well, doesn't that statement by Beerus that base Goku is below 120 million contradict base Goten and Trunks holding their own against #18, who is about 500 million?

Also, was it said in the anime or in the movie? Because some statements only pertain to the movie, as Super goes with an altogether different policy regarding powerlevels (for example 6-10-15 is no longer valid for Super).

[ekrolo2]

Well, doesn't that statement by Beerus that base Goku is below 120 million contradict base Goten and Trunks holding their own against #18, who is about 500 million?

Also, was it said in the anime or in the movie? Because some statements only pertain to the movie, as Super goes with an altogether different policy regarding powerlevels (for example 6-10-15 is no longer valid for Super).

18 didn't know she was fighting them until they used Super Saiyan, she knew Mighty Mask was tough but a tough human doesn't warrant using anywhere close to full power to beating, especially since killing anyone would get her disqualified.