Why Does The Japanese Version Have A Bad Rep?

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Personally, one dub voice that I do enjoy (nay, prefer), is Scott McNeil as Piccolo, in the Pioneer dubs. I know many here dislike the extra cost (as well as principle) of "dubbing" in the first place (ideally theyd reanimate, but then again, Toei & cheap), but Scott has a resume much thicker than Toshio Furukawa's & under proper conditions & script he'd have done even better. Ryo Horikawa is one voice I wish had carried over into the English version, it's that good. Sabat has a big voice, but..that's not Vegeta

I'd agree with you on Scott McNeil. He is a rare exception in the Dragon Ball dubs (perhaps the only case) where I feel the performance fit the character better than the Japanese actor. That said I can imagine Vegeta with both Sabat and Horikawa's voices (and even Drummond at certain points, particularly the Saiyan arc and Majin Vegeta) as the former actor has done an INCREDIBLE job since Kai.

Although I don't think dub actors should be required to imitate the original actor, but rather do their own interpretation while keeping with the spirit of the character (Schemmel does a great job of this while playing Goku).

[huzaifa_ahmed]

Personally, one dub voice that I do enjoy (nay, prefer), is Scott McNeil as Piccolo, in the Pioneer dubs. I know many here dislike the extra cost (as well as principle) of "dubbing" in the first place (ideally theyd reanimate, but then again, Toei & cheap), but Scott has a resume much thicker than Toshio Furukawa's & under proper conditions & script he'd have done even better. Ryo Horikawa is one voice I wish had carried over into the English version, it's that good. Sabat has a big voice, but..that's not Vegeta

I'd agree with you on Scott McNeil. He is a rare exception in the Dragon Ball dubs (perhaps the only case) where I feel the performance fit the character better than the Japanese actor. That said I can imagine Vegeta with both Sabat and Horikawa's voices (and even Drummond at certain points, particularly the Saiyan arc and Majin Vegeta) as the former actor has done an INCREDIBLE job since Kai.

Although I don't think dub actors should be required to imitate the original actor, but rather do their own interpretation while keeping with the spirit of the character (Schemmel does a great job of this while playing Goku).

Actors are actors, everyone brings their own take. It's the casting director's job to have an understanding of the character. The point of referencing the original audio (or even better, consulting the producers/creators of the show) is to get an understanding of the spirit of the performance. Vocal timbre is important as well (altho it's only part of casting), but should be because of the reason that the actors were cast. I feel that Drummond (& by extension Sabat) & the rest of the dub was cast without an understanding of the character, especially considering they had no real translations either.

Many dub performances that I adore, such as Liam O'Brien as Gaara or JYB as Ichigo, don't sound "just like the Japanese version". Akira Ishida has a more typical young-sounding tenor, whereas Liam (while at the time was very soft-spoken, a factor in his casting) went on to do massive voices such as Illidan in WoW & Asura in Asura's Wrath (which was synced to English, btw). JYB sounds a lot softer than Morita (arguably more age-appropriate).

Heck, even in the Dragon Ball domestic production, several actors were recast (arguably badly) with different-sounding VA's. Kenta Miyake'd be a better Gori replacement than Ishizuka is. Koji Ishii (Recoome) ironicly sounds more like Chris Sabat than he does Kenji Utsumi.

[8000 Saiyan]

I feel that Drummond (& by extension Sabat) & the rest of the dub was cast without an understanding of the character.

Well, yeah, Drummond was simply told that Vegeta was a Super Saiyan, but he seems to understand Vegeta better. What a shame we haven't seen his Kai performance yet, since his voice is a combination of his Vegeta and Zechs voice, much deeper and smoother. I feel that he could surpass Sabat's Kai Vegeta performance, but that's just me.

The English voices I love equally to the Japanese are Scott McNeil's Piccolo and Saffron Henderson's Kid Gohan (Her voice is so cute!).

[TheBlackPaladin]

It's also important to remember that part of the reason dubs weren't quite as good back then is because, in many cases, dubbing companies (and not just English ones) weren't given much knowledge about the show ahead of time, and while they may have known the basic gist of the story (i.e., "They're on a quest to find seven Dragon Balls to summon a dragon that will grant them a wish,"), for the most part, the dubbing business was such that they learned the story as they went along. They'd only get certain amounts of episodes at a time, no plot descriptions, and no character descriptions. Chris Sabat said the greatest thing to ever happen to him as a director was the internet, because it allowed him to go online and do research on the story and characters of the shows he worked on.

[8000 Saiyan]

Chris Sabat said the greatest thing to ever happen to him as a director was the internet, because it allowed him to go online and do research on the story and characters of the shows he worked on.

I guess we should give credit to the internet as well.

[huzaifa_ahmed]

Personally, one dub voice that I do enjoy (nay, prefer), is Scott McNeil as Piccolo, in the Pioneer dubs. I know many here dislike the extra cost (as well as principle) of "dubbing" in the first place (ideally theyd reanimate, but then again, Toei & cheap), but Scott has a resume much thicker than Toshio Furukawa's & under proper conditions & script he'd have done even better. Ryo Horikawa is one voice I wish had carried over into the English version, it's that good. Sabat has a big voice, but..that's not Vegeta

I'd agree with you on Scott McNeil. He is a rare exception in the Dragon Ball dubs (perhaps the only case) where I feel the performance fit the character better than the Japanese actor. That said I can imagine Vegeta with both Sabat and Horikawa's voices (and even Drummond at certain points, particularly the Saiyan arc and Majin Vegeta) as the former actor has done an INCREDIBLE job since Kai.

Although I don't think dub actors should be required to imitate the original actor, but rather do their own interpretation while keeping with the spirit of the character (Schemmel does a great job of this while playing Goku).

Actors are actors, everyone brings their own take. It's the casting director's job to have an understanding of the character. The point of referencing the original audio (or even better, consulting the producers/creators of the show) is to get an understanding of the spirit of the performance. Vocal timbre is important as well (altho it's only part of casting), but should be because of the reason that the actors were cast. I feel that Drummond (& by extension Sabat) & the rest of the dub was cast without an understanding of the character, especially considering they had no real translations either.

Many dub performances that I adore, such as Liam O'Brien as Gaara or JYB as Ichigo, don't sound "just like the Japanese version". Akira Ishida has a more typical young-sounding tenor, whereas Liam (while at the time was very soft-spoken, a factor in his casting) went on to do massive voices such as Illidan in WoW & Asura in Asura's Wrath (which was synced to English, btw). JYB sounds a lot softer than Morita (arguably more age-appropriate).

Heck, even in the Dragon Ball domestic production, several actors were recast (arguably badly) with different-sounding VA's. Kenta Miyake'd be a better Gori replacement than Ishizuka is. Koji Ishii (Recoome) ironicly sounds more like Chris Sabat than he does Kenji Utsumi.

I guess, in the case of casting...what I meant to say is that Drummond, McNeil, Corlett (& by extension Kelamis, Schemmel, & Morrow) weren't cast to properly represent the characters as part of the story. The casting fit what Fukunaga & his co-horts & Saban wanted, & thanks to Toei's crap handling of translations/audio references, thought the characters were.

According to Drummond, he "made up a voice" according to description..which isnt inherently bad, just here the process didnt involve anyone actually part of Dragon Ball's production, & moreso done to terrible translations as well.

[8000 Saiyan]

I guess, in the case of casting...what I meant to say is that Drummond, McNeil, Corlett (& by extension Kelamis, Schemmel, & Morrow) weren't cast to properly represent the characters as part of the story. The casting fit what Fukunaga & his co-horts & Saban wanted, & thanks to Toei's crap handling of translations/audio references, thought the characters were.

I think you're just spouting the same stuff all over again: The English voice actors need to have the same vocal timbres as the Japanese to be good! That's what makes a proper dub of Dragon Ball!

Can't you understand that acting matters more than voice matching?

[TheBlackPaladin]

The English voice actors need to have the same vocal timbres as the Japanese to be good! That's what makes a proper dub of Dragon Ball!

I must respectfully, but completely, disagree. It has never been important to me--in any dub of any show--that the English voice actors use voices that are the same as the original Japanese voice actors. If that were a requirement for a good dub, then it would mean automatically disregarding some pretty excellent performances, like Greg Ayers as Freeza (whose acting is excellent, but whose voice is very different than Ryusei Nakao's). To me, a good dub simply means good acting, scripts that are adapted faithfully (while still sounding natural), and voices that fit the characters...they don't necessarily have to be "vocal clones" of the original Japanese voices.

Granted, these qualities are subjective, but that's why there is debate over whether or not certain dubs are good. Either way, as long as the voices fit the characters, I could care less if they have the same vocal timbres as the Japanese voice actors.

[8000 Saiyan]

The English voice actors need to have the same vocal timbres as the Japanese to be good! That's what makes a proper dub of Dragon Ball!

I must respectfully, but completely, disagree. It has never been important to me--in any dub of any show--that the English voice actors use voices that are the same as the original Japanese voice actors. If that were a requirement for a good dub, then it would mean automatically disregarding some pretty excellent performances, like Greg Ayers as Freeza (whose acting is excellent, but whose voice is very different than Ryusei Nakao's). To me, a good dub simply means good acting, scripts that are adapted faithfully (while still sounding natural), and voices that fit the characters...they don't necessarily have to be "vocal clones" of the original Japanese voices.

Granted, these qualities are subjective, but that's why there is debate over whether or not certain dubs are good. Either way, as long as the voices fit the characters, I could care less if they have the same vocal timbres as the Japanese voice actors.

I never implied that the English voice actors needed to have the same vocal timbre as the Japanese voice actors, that's what huzaifa_ahmed said.

[TheBlackPaladin]

The English voice actors need to have the same vocal timbres as the Japanese to be good! That's what makes a proper dub of Dragon Ball!

I must respectfully, but completely, disagree. It has never been important to me--in any dub of any show--that the English voice actors use voices that are the same as the original Japanese voice actors. If that were a requirement for a good dub, then it would mean automatically disregarding some pretty excellent performances, like Greg Ayers as Freeza (whose acting is excellent, but whose voice is very different than Ryusei Nakao's). To me, a good dub simply means good acting, scripts that are adapted faithfully (while still sounding natural), and voices that fit the characters...they don't necessarily have to be "vocal clones" of the original Japanese voices.

Granted, these qualities are subjective, but that's why there is debate over whether or not certain dubs are good. Either way, as long as the voices fit the characters, I could care less if they have the same vocal timbres as the Japanese voice actors.

I never implied that the English voice actors needed to have the same vocal timbre as the Japanese voice actors, that's what huzaifa_ahmed said.

Ah, gotcha. My apologies.

[huzaifa_ahmed]

The English voice actors need to have the same vocal timbres as the Japanese to be good! That's what makes a proper dub of Dragon Ball!

I must respectfully, but completely, disagree. It has never been important to me--in any dub of any show--that the English voice actors use voices that are the same as the original Japanese voice actors. If that were a requirement for a good dub, then it would mean automatically disregarding some pretty excellent performances, like Greg Ayers as Freeza (whose acting is excellent, but whose voice is very different than Ryusei Nakao's). To me, a good dub simply means good acting, scripts that are adapted faithfully (while still sounding natural), and voices that fit the characters...they don't necessarily have to be "vocal clones" of the original Japanese voices.

Granted, these qualities are subjective, but that's why there is debate over whether or not certain dubs are good. Either way, as long as the voices fit the characters, I could care less if they have the same vocal timbres as the Japanese voice actors.

I never implied that the English voice actors needed to have the same vocal timbre as the Japanese voice actors, that's what huzaifa_ahmed said.

Okay...so I have had a problem with this. I'm not sure how much of "the voice" is important in a casting, but NCZ pointed out to me that expecting "the same" voice (not necessarily "performance" which would be even worse) is counter-productive & overly literal, the way that certain fans want literal translations (which I expect more of in subtitles, but off-topic).

I don't want Solid Snake sounding like Hayter over Otsuka, considering Kojima *chose* Otsuka. But that's the key here: Kojima chose. I want something that reflects what the author/creator wanted, & that is why I bring up the Japanese audio references. I dont mind that say, Street Fighter V has Sagat sounding differnt between languages, because I know that those who were behind the show in Japan, cast those dubs themselves!

I do usually imagine that there will be similarities in performances & vocal qualities, of course, but it's not like they have "exact parameters" when casting a character in Japan, so why would it be different in other languages? An example of why "literal dub casting" is silly on principle: several VA's in Japan have played each Street Fighter character - & all of them doing the same version, just their own personal take. They generally sound "in the same ballpark" , but not "voice-matched".

* My beef with the Dragon Ball castings is that people are only suggesting them because they previously performed the characters - regardless that they were done entirely outsourced, without any care or involvement from Toei, Shueisha, let alone Toriyama or anyone else who was part of the creation of the property. The Japanese audio references would at the very least be useful in gauging the characterizations, if not actual creator contact.

[TheGreatness25]

But if they do a good job, do you really care about what Toei wanted? And who in Toei are you looking to? The ones who chose the Japanese actors might not speak English, in which case how could they possibly choose a cast? So they'd rely on someone who does speak English. Could be a branch of Toei, but is it still the same as the Toei that cast the Japanese actors just because they're under the Toei umbrella? Didn't Toei implicitly entrust Funimation to go out and choose its actors?

[8000 Saiyan]

I want something that reflects what the author/creator wanted, & that is why I bring up the Japanese audio references.

What if the English voice actors capture the spirit of the character with their personal take on the voice? They can use the Japanese audio as an inspiration.

[Dbzfan94]

First off, there is no evidence that says the original version has a bad rep in America. Second, the people on MAL, YouTube, Facebook are the vocal minority that likes to be angry on the internet as VegettoEX said.

If I have to take a guess I would say it's the very famous "I grew up with it" logic that most English dub fans like to throw around. They grew up with a terrible adaptation but that was the show to them. Besides a few exceptions, even now as an adult those people just didn't grow up and they cannot and will not accept that there is an infinitely better version of the show that they like which then leads to anger and frustration followed by childish insults.

There was a time when I was annoyed reading nonsense from these fans, but now I just ignore them. It can't be helped.

See, this sentiment is where I find a disconnect with those who prefer the original to any dubbed version of the show. If you want to say that what they watched isn't accurate or faithful to the characters, depending on which dub you're talking about, then I'd understand that.

But better? Infinitely better at that? You won't get many "conversations" on that somewhat dogmatic approach, especially when ironically, that dub's unique inconsistencies might make what they're watching better in their eyes, despite what they grew up with not being original. Some people may prefer Goku's early FUNi Superman persona a better experience than the original incarnation, for instance.

My thoughts exactly. The elitism on both ends needs to stop

[TheGreatness25]

And yet with that elitism come the never-ending excuses, such as the one that the dub doesn't capture the intent of the original because it doesn't sound like them. Well I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone do a dub that sounds like Nozawa without wanting to scrape your ears out. It would probably sound like Astroboy from the dub of the original black and white series. When there's elitism and such a closed mind as to say "Well that other version will never match up," one can always find some ridiculous subjective excuse for why that is.

[8000 Saiyan]

First off, there is no evidence that says the original version has a bad rep in America. Second, the people on MAL, YouTube, Facebook are the vocal minority that likes to be angry on the internet as VegettoEX said.

If I have to take a guess I would say it's the very famous "I grew up with it" logic that most English dub fans like to throw around. They grew up with a terrible adaptation but that was the show to them. Besides a few exceptions, even now as an adult those people just didn't grow up and they cannot and will not accept that there is an infinitely better version of the show that they like which then leads to anger and frustration followed by childish insults.

There was a time when I was annoyed reading nonsense from these fans, but now I just ignore them. It can't be helped.

See, this sentiment is where I find a disconnect with those who prefer the original to any dubbed version of the show. If you want to say that what they watched isn't accurate or faithful to the characters, depending on which dub you're talking about, then I'd understand that.

But better? Infinitely better at that? You won't get many "conversations" on that somewhat dogmatic approach, especially when ironically, that dub's unique inconsistencies might make what they're watching better in their eyes, despite what they grew up with not being original. Some people may prefer Goku's early FUNi Superman persona a better experience than the original incarnation, for instance.

My thoughts exactly. The elitism on both ends needs to stop.

I doubt that the elitism will ever stop.

[TheGreatness25]

I don't even understand the elitism. Let's look at it from the Japanese version elitists' side. Why in the world is it that every time someone mentions liking the dub more, that person gets attacked about how it's a shame or how the dub sucks, etc.? Why can't someone legitimately enjoy the dub over the Japanese version without being talked down to? What? Do some fans think that they're cooler because they watched the Japanese version of the TV show? It's 2016; everyone has access to it just as much as the dub, so it's not like it was in 1999, for example. Sometimes it's nice to just chat about the dub in a nice lighthearted way without having this deep conversation about how it's inadequate.

On the flip side, I have no idea why anyone would put down the Japanese version. No Japanese version means no dub, and then nobody would be talking about anything. I don't know what an elitist who supports only the dub could even say against the Japanese version. Saying that Nozawa's voice is bad opens up doors to pointing out where the dub was brutal. Saying that the Japanese music is bad opens up the doors to saying that aside from some pretty nice epic (at least the attempt was there) character music, the background music was mostly jittered, wonky, and brutal to listen to (especially in the Boo arc).

Either way, can't we all just learn to get along?

[8000 Saiyan]

I don't even understand the elitism. Let's look at it from the Japanese version elitists' side. Why in the world is it that every time someone mentions liking the dub more, that person gets attacked about how it's a shame or how the dub sucks, etc.? Why can't someone legitimately enjoy the dub over the Japanese version without being talked down to? What? Do some fans think that they're cooler because they watched the Japanese version of the TV show? It's 2016; everyone has access to it just as much as the dub, so it's not like it was in 1999, for example. Sometimes it's nice to just chat about the dub in a nice lighthearted way without having this deep conversation about how it's inadequate.

On the flip side, I have no idea why anyone would put down the Japanese version. No Japanese version means no dub, and then nobody would be talking about anything. I don't know what an elitist who supports only the dub could even say against the Japanese version. Saying that Nozawa's voice is bad opens up doors to pointing out where the dub was brutal. Saying that the Japanese music is bad opens up the doors to saying that aside from some pretty nice epic (at least the attempt was there) character music, the background music was mostly jittered, wonky, and brutal to listen to (especially in the Boo arc).

Either way, can't we all just learn to get along?

Getting along is something that dub and sub elitists can't do.

[VegettoEX]

Why in the world is it that every time someone mentions liking the dub more, that person gets attacked about how it's a shame or how the dub sucks, etc.?

This doesn't happen every single time, but the entire point of this particular thread is to ask why the Japanese version might have a bad reputation. Very legitimate arguments about the dub's pitfalls are extremely relevant to bring up and discuss in detail.

[TheBlackPaladin]

I think DBZ just means a great deal to a lot of people, whether it's a dubbed version or the original Japanese version. So when somebody criticizes either version, some people take it a little more personally than they should. Sometimes it's a matter of fans being too sensitive, and sometimes it's a matter of people articulating their opinions in an immature and provocative manner...and sometimes it's a combination of both.

On top of that, in a lot of internet discussions (not even just related to DBZ), there's nobody serving as a "mind your manners"-authority, so things quickly get out of hand. Just look at the comments section of any YouTube video.