Why Does The Japanese Version Have A Bad Rep?

[Hellspawn28]

How come the Japanese version has such a bad rep with the Western fandom? When I was growing up, the Japanese version of Dragon Ball seem like some dark and edgy thing that you had to really track down yourself. You had to know some cool kid in your school to get a Japanese tapes or go any local Japanese collector shop, or a Fee Market. I remember on the web during the early-mid 2000's that the Japanese version was the most popular version of the show on most websites and it was rare to have someone to like the Toonami broadcast dub. Now it seems like Kanzenshuu and the DB forums on Gamefaqs are the only place that really likes the Japanese version.

I also notice that people are okay with watching anime like Naruto, Sailor Moon, Pokemon, One Piece, Bleach and Digimon sub, but Dragon Ball is some reason no one can enjoy subbed. Not to mention that Kai is the English dub that stays faithful to the Japanese scripts that fans wanted for years and yet it's hated by people for not being like the dub of DBZ that used to be on Toonami in the 90's.

[VegettoEX]

I guess my first question would be: says who? How do you come to a conclusion that, based on ________ data (from where?) that the original Japanese version has a bad reputation?

Dragon Ball is a show for kids. In the west (well, specifically America), people got into it as kids, and then go through a whole bunch of growing pains. For some, realizing you're into a kid's show is the first point of rebellion: you don't want to be seen as a kid anymore, so you shed anything that would tie you to that identity. For others, it's the discovery that the show (a Japanese cartoon) isn't what you thought it was (just a cool show on TV); when you learn something new, you sometimes feel as if you've been lied to or otherwise lost a little bit of control over your past. For even more others (and stemming from that last point), it starts dipping into a sense of identity that you don't feel you have: that of an anime fan (like, "I'm not one of those gross anime fans, I just like this one show! Don't lump me in with them!").

There are these and ALL SORTS of other self-growth moments and phases for lots of people.

Once you struggle through all of that and come to terms with the fact that you're a goddamn adult watching a show for kids and talking about it on the Internet with the exact same type of other people but also sometimes talking to 14 year olds and that's really fucking awkward and weird...

... then, and ONLY THEN, do you get into the classic examples of "I don't like the voices" and "I don't like the music" and "the script isn't as funny as I remember it being" and so on and so forth. But ALL OF THAT still comes back around to "this isn't what I thought it was".

Some people can "get over it" and enjoy the franchise for what it is and always has been. Others can't. Some have valid personal artistic taste reasons for that. You don't hear from those people that often, because they're reasonable human beings. The other group is what you hear from, because it's fun to be angry on the Internet.

[Hellspawn28]

I'm just going by what I see both online and outside the Internet. A lot of anime fans I see tend to only like the series dubbed and refuse to watch it subbed. Like on Youtube, Facebook, Twitter, MAL and most people that grew up with the show on Toonami. People are welcome to enjoy on what they enjoy, but I wish more of the Western fandom respect the Japanese version more.

[8000 Saiyan]

Well, Hellspawn28, my best guess is that the Western fandom sees Dragon Ball as a hardcore action show with the manlliest characters ever and they think it's bad for Goku having a woman doing his voice.

I find it ironic how many people don't mind Luffy and Naruto having female VA's, yet with Goku, that's no good. Those people simply don't understand his character.

But it's also because of ignorance and nostalgic reasons. The fans who grew up with the 1999-2003 dub think that the dub surpassed the Japanese version in every way, and they are so attached to it that they don't want to let go of their childhood. That is Dragon Ball to them.

[VegettoEX]

my best guess is that the Western fandom sees Dragon Ball as a hardcore action show with the manlliest characters ever

The show's original treatment and dubbing practice is precisely why we still have this conversation in 2016. As much as many of us want to pretend it's no longer relevant and doesn't affect us in any way other than still dispelling myths based on bad dialog... it's so much more than that. It's what fuels things like Kunzait's and Derek's great insight and exploration of the series' roots and inspirational sources, things which can at times directly conflict with what western fandom thinks the franchise is.

Everyone thinks they know what the franchise is, but the truth is, it's different to every single person based on their own history. That being said, some folks have a wider appreciation and dedication to learning about that history. Those that don't may forever be stuck in the rut of "this isn't what I thought it was" and will just continue rebelling against it. When you lose control over what you thought you knew, that can be tough for anyone of any maturity level to deal with.

And that's separate from, "no, I understand what that is, and I just don't like it". Again, that's a reasonable human being. That kind of opinion isn't what's at the root of the original question here, though.

[Bansho64]

Lots of ignorance is a part of the problem.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I don't think the Japanese version has a bad reputation necessarily, but more a case of the original Funimation dub's prevalence among the Western fandom and the unwillingness of many of these fans to adjust to something else.

The original Z dub, despite the redubbing that took place and the first two seasons being redubbed with the in-house case remained largely the same throughout its broadcast and various home releases. That's what most of the fans grew up with, it's the show that got them into anime and they want it to stay the same. They love everything about that dub. The voices, the music, the cheesy dialogue, the "Next Time on Dragon Ball Zeee", it's the whole package of the show they grew up on and what they believe it is. I've seen "the voices suck", or "meh, no Faulconer score" comments on Youtube videos of the Japanese version, and the Kai dub because there are fans of the original Funimation dub who don't want anything else, to them when they watch these videos they don't see the show for what it is (even though that is what these two versions represent), they just see it as different from the show they loved growing up.

It is a shame because many of these fans could learn so much more about the world of the series and its characters if they broadened their horizons.

[TheBlackPaladin]

Like others have already said, in creating a dub that was so dramatically different from the source material, FUNimation created a following of people that have certain expectations of what the show is supposed to be...and the perceptions they have are in conflict with what the show truly is. It'd be one thing if the original Japanese version was similar to FUNimation's original dub, but the dub just took so many liberties. With other anime, it's often the case that, whether you're watching the subtitled version or the dub, you may be listening to the show with different casts (with one speaking Japanese and the other English), but you're still getting more or less the same show. FUNimaton's dub was just not like that. Their dub was so different that it was like watching another show entirely. So if somebody likes DBZ based on FUNimation's dub, it's hard to get them excited for an almost entirely different show that just happens to use the same animation.

This seems to have come back to bite FUNimation later now that they're doing faithful dubs. As great as the dubs are now and as faithful as the dubs are now, we have fans of the old dub saying, "This is like watching a different show, it's not the show I fell in love with and remember."

At the same time, while this problem has not been eliminated by any means, I think this will become less of a problem as time goes on. As it has been told to me, back when FUNimation's first dub of DBZ was on TV, it did actually develop a big following of fans, but most of those fans were not old enough and technology-savvy enough to participate in internet discussions yet. So, going online, you wouldn't know the dub had any fans. It was filled with people who already were familiar with the Japanese version and didn't care for the changes FUNimation made. This led to the misconception that, since they weren't on the internet, it must be the case that nobody liked the dub. It wasn't until years later, when tons and tons of new people started popping up online and praising the dub, that fans of the original Japanese version discovered, "Wait, there are fans who like that dub?"

However, thanks to the fact that FUNimation's dubs are now pretty faithful, I think we'll find ourselves in a similar situation, but in reverse. I think Kai being on TV also created a new wave of young fans, but this time around, this generation of new fans was introduced to the show via an accurate English representation of the original Japanese version. Those fans were not old enough and technology-savvy enough to participate in internet discussions yet either when Kai was first airing...but, years later, they're starting to emerge. I'm seeing more and more posts to the effect of, "I grew up on the Nicktoons broadcast of Kai."

This has led to two things:
1. Me feeling old.
2. A new generation of fans that have a better idea of what the show really is, and so they don't yearn for FUNimation's old dubbing practices.

So, between fans of the Japanese version who already knew about the changes, fans who learned about the changes and got a better understanding of what the show truly is, and the newer generations of fans who are being introduced to the show via faithful dubs, I think it will be easier to introduce people to the original Japanese version going forward. This will be even more true if FUNimation manages to secure a TV deal for their inevitable Super dub.

[Cipher]

I'd venture a huge, oozaru-sized guess that the reason you see an vitriol toward the Japanese version online, and that it's limited primarily to English-speaking fans, is that the series was popularized through a completely different version. People want what they remember, and what they remember is tonally different from the Japanese show. It's as simple and predictable as that.

The reason it's usually expressed so stupidly is that these are adults who literally want everything to be like it was when they were a child, who don't want to enjoy or examine things in any other way, and who feel compelled to make that opinion known rather than simply moving on. It's not just Japanese Dragon Ball they're going to sound stupid and angry about; it's just the only opinion of theirs you're unfortunate enough to encounter.

[huzaifa_ahmed]

I guess my first question would be: says who? How do you come to a conclusion that, based on ________ data (from where?) that the original Japanese version has a bad reputation?

Dragon Ball is a show for kids. In the west (well, specifically America), people got into it as kids, and then go through a whole bunch of growing pains. For some, realizing you're into a kid's show is the first point of rebellion: you don't want to be seen as a kid anymore, so you shed anything that would tie you to that identity. For others, it's the discovery that the show (a Japanese cartoon) isn't what you thought it was (just a cool show on TV); when you learn something new, you sometimes feel as if you've been lied to or otherwise lost a little bit of control over your past. For even more others (and stemming from that last point), it starts dipping into a sense of identity that you don't feel you have: that of an anime fan (like, "I'm not one of those gross anime fans, I just like this one show! Don't lump me in with them!").

There are these and ALL SORTS of other self-growth moments and phases for lots of people.

Once you struggle through all of that and come to terms with the fact that you're a goddamn adult watching a show for kids and talking about it on the Internet with the exact same type of other people but also sometimes talking to 14 year olds and that's really fucking awkward and weird...

... then, and ONLY THEN, do you get into the classic examples of "I don't like the voices" and "I don't like the music" and "the script isn't as funny as I remember it being" and so on and so forth. But ALL OF THAT still comes back around to "this isn't what I thought it was".

Some people can "get over it" and enjoy the franchise for what it is and always has been. Others can't. Some have valid personal artistic taste reasons for that. You don't hear from those people that often, because they're reasonable human beings. The other group is what you hear from, because it's fun to be angry on the Internet.

I dont think people necessarily have an issue with just Kai's dub because "it's the most popular amongst current kids" - I think it is a stylistic difference, & even a certain group of kids have taken to the old dub as "the original, hardcore" DBZ, which to me points out that the tone of it might fit better with that audience. the old dub was still a children's show, so I'm not sure that fans dislike the Japanese version because it's a kids' show.

I mean, Naruto is a kids' show in any language, yet the English dub has become more of a niche than the Japanese version. & while as someone who feels dubs are "not the real show", that may seem like an accomplishment, that "English-speakers have overcome subs"...the reason it's turned out that way is that anime fans quit watching TV & releases shrunk to sub-only. It's not a positive, &, similarly to the way that certain fans of the old DBZ dub seem to revolt at the Japanese version..newer, younger CrunchyRoll-era Naruto fans "lol" at the English dub, which, may I remind you, is incredibly accurate to the manga & the cast was selected pretty thoroughly by folks who worked on the show in Japan.

One Piece, while the 4Kids thing is its own separate issue, is also more niche in its English-dubbed version (which had VAs selected thoroughly between Toei & Oda himself), even tho many of the FUNis DB VAs are in it. Mainly because the dub is far, far behind & the show manages to be constant in Japan.

Bleach? Similar treatment as Naruto, a bit better but still comparable. It's basicly because "convenience" & to a lesser extent "I dont understand what they're saying, so it sounds less cringey".

Sailor Moon's dub, like Digimon's, has fans because the series has been largely irrelevant for awhile, but at the same time, there's plenty of Japanese-only parts, plus there were tons of censored aspects of the story, & so people eventually watched it subbed. I think SM's new dub is well-received.

* The Kanzenshuu may be chock-full of folks who want "the original version" of things as much as possible...but average fan simply wants the story, as fast as possible. If it was pre-Internet, & the show was only available dubbed, especially if the dub had a certain style about it, they'll stick with that. If it's post-bubble burst in the mostly-fansubs era, then theyll stick with that.

* Currency is also important. Fans dont hate new dubs as they release just because of "old dubs were bad", no, the matter is obviously that, because they're shoving American English into a vastly different language, the dissonance is pretty heavy & for many people, it's just too weird.

* At the same time, many "old dubs" like Outlaw Star, Akira, Trigun, Pokémon, are fondly remembered.

* Pokémon being a special case in the sense that Nintendo themselves oversees it's localizations, & the show itself is pretty popular & definitely hits its target demo well. The dub itself isnt exceptional, but it isnt too far behind & it definitely has support behind it, unlike 95% of anime localizations. It has fans of "the Japanese version" (aka "people who want the show ASAP, dub terms intact" lol) because of the nature of anime business. Plus the dub is mostly cheap, while the Japanese version is AAA, but that generally doesnt seem to be a complaint.

Let's review the factors:

In order -

[*]Show's popularity: It makes more sense for a dub/sub to be popular depending on popularity. Very small shows often dont even get licenses, let alone dubs.

[*]Entertainment value:Regardless of how the show starts, eventually a big aspect is just the fun of the show, purism & research aside (the YYH dub is a guilty pleasure of mine). This is why creative dubs, that may not be super-faithful, but make things more appealing besides just rewriting Japanese-adapted dialogue (which isnt that fun to hear for English audiences) like Panty & Stocking, Black Lagoon, Baccano, Steins Gate, Space Dandy...& yes, to a much further extent the old DBZ dub...are pretty popular amongst English-speaking fandoms.

[*]Origin of popularity: JJBA (& most anime in the niche fandom today) got popular off CrunchyRoll, so subs are primary until Viz gets their stuff together & gives us a televised simuldub. When the dub comes out, many fans who grew attached to the Japanese version & take pride in their niche, eclectic tastes, feel revulsion & snub it entirely. But the dub is for DVDs mainly.

[*]Currency: In terms of long-running shows, the way that the anime business works, with only niche outlets & single-audio streaming..doesnt work in the favor of dubs. You cant watch One Piece in English, not if you want to keep up (I personally vastly prefer the comics anyhow). Dragon Ball fans, despite the "dub" being a heavy mainstay here, are beginning to feel this, & the fandom is changing, for the better I guess. Digimon, while its much smaller, is similar with Tri (altho they did a far better job than they did with DBS's license/dub)

That's it.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

First off, there is no evidence that says the original version has a bad rep in America. Second, the people on MAL, YouTube, Facebook are the vocal minority that likes to be angry on the internet as VegettoEX said.

If I have to take a guess I would say it's the very famous "I grew up with it" logic that most English dub fans like to throw around. They grew up with a terrible adaptation but that was the show to them. Besides a few exceptions, even now as an adult those people just didn't grow up and they cannot and will not accept that there is an infinitely better version of the show that they like which then leads to anger and frustration followed by childish insults.

There was a time when I was annoyed reading nonsense from these fans, but now I just ignore them. It can't be helped.

[TheGreatness25]

I've seen places that do have fans who think that the original Japanese version is worse. But you know, that's not a bad thing. Everyone is free to enjoy whichever version of the series they want. It would be one thing if there were people out there who basically made up their own version of the show, but Funimation's version does exist and it's real, so anyone is free to enjoy that version more than the original. On the other hand, we have fans that seem to want the show to be all about romance or high school or female characters fighting each other with their boobs -- that's much more absurd than liking the dub. I don't know why some people continue to put fandom into question and basically judge fans for liking a certain version of the series over another. Believe me, the Dragon Ball franchise is not suffering because there are fans that like the dub over the Japanese version.


With that said, I don't think that the Japanese version has a "bad rep." A lot of people circle back to the argument of Nozawa's performance and the original score. Again, those things are subjective and you simply can't argue with someone over liking it. Nobody is saying that Sean Schemmel or Bruce Faulconer encompass the true meaning of Dragon Ball; they're saying that they prefer those aspects of the dub more. You can't really argue it.


And there many places where you can see the fans bashing the Japanese version. Just because it doesn't happen on here or within this community doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Just pick a forum outside of this one and check it out. You'll see exactly what Hellspawn28 is talking about.

[SaintEvolution]

Masako Nozawa's voice as Goku is probably the biggest reason for this. But there are other reasons than that.

[Kojiro Sasaki]

I can only say that among my fellow fan base it's quite the opposite. They say that anime is Japanese and it needs to be presented in Japanese. The very most of them strongly prefer subs.
I did some tests on my friends: I switched audio track from Japanese to English while watching Dragon Ball and after three seconds they were like: "What the hell did you do? Turn that back!" They all became aggressive and wanted to beat me.
Most of my friends CANNOT STAND any other version than Japanese. Even our own dubs (DBZ Movies 12-13) are considered silly curiosities. We just love the original Japanese seiyū. Pronunciation, sharpness, modulation, tone, emotion and POWER of the language is just epic (not mentioning the commitment and great talent of the original VAs). Let's face the truth: No country will never put so much effort into dubbing Japanese anime as Japan.

Some of us are nostalgic towards the old French dub, but no one takes it too seriously.

[Sailor Haumea]

Here's my preferences:

-Japanese DB
-Japanese DBZ
-Japanese DBZ movies 1-13
-Japanese GT
-Japanese Super (for now)
-Funi Kai
-Funi DBZ movies 14 & 15

Are the dubs of DB movies (Curse of the Blood Rubies, Sleeping Princess in Devil's Castle, Mystical Adventure, and The Path to Power) accurate? Haven't seen them.

[Boo Machine]

I usually just chalk it up to nostalgia for a good amount of these cases. I managed to get a friend of mine to admit that this was the reason he couldn't enjoy Kai but still loves the original Funi Dub.

Though my brother used to be someone that couldn't stand the Japanese version either, but as soon as DragonBall Super started becoming a thing he got impatient and decided to watch it as it currently is with subs. Now he likes it. I think the people from the Funi dub days just need an adjustment period if they're willing to give it a shot. So I don't really see it as hate (Though I get why that's the impression some people get. Believe me, my Facebook is filled with people who watched the Funi dub.) it's more just an unwilling to "Give up their childhood."

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Though my brother used to be someone that couldn't stand the Japanese version either, but as soon as DragonBall Super started becoming a thing he got impatient and decided to watch it as it currently is with subs. Now he likes it. I think the people from the Funi dub days just need an adjustment period if they're willing to give it a shot. So I don't really see it as hate (Though I get why that's the impression some people get. Believe me, my Facebook is filled with people who watched the Funi dub.) it's more just an unwilling to "Give up their childhood."

Yeah now is a great time for people to get into the Japanese version with Super and all. I know from experience because before Super I was a casual fan of the Japanese cast, but now I LOVE them, and have been enjoying the original series that way.

I honestly don't see why people have to feel like giving up their childhood would be necessary. I still enjoy watching the old dub for nostalgia (more so the Westwood dub than the Funimation in-house because I prefer that version), although I vastly prefer Kai and the Japanese version that doesn't mean it has to be the only version I can watch. For me it's all Dragon Ball at the end of the day and more is always good if it's quality content.

[Lunatic Fringe]

First off, there is no evidence that says the original version has a bad rep in America. Second, the people on MAL, YouTube, Facebook are the vocal minority that likes to be angry on the internet as VegettoEX said.

If I have to take a guess I would say it's the very famous "I grew up with it" logic that most English dub fans like to throw around. They grew up with a terrible adaptation but that was the show to them. Besides a few exceptions, even now as an adult those people just didn't grow up and they cannot and will not accept that there is an infinitely better version of the show that they like which then leads to anger and frustration followed by childish insults.

There was a time when I was annoyed reading nonsense from these fans, but now I just ignore them. It can't be helped.

See, this sentiment is where I find a disconnect with those who prefer the original to any dubbed version of the show. If you want to say that what they watched isn't accurate or faithful to the characters, depending on which dub you're talking about, then I'd understand that.

But better? Infinitely better at that? You won't get many "conversations" on that somewhat dogmatic approach, especially when ironically, that dub's unique inconsistencies might make what they're watching better in their eyes, despite what they grew up with not being original. Some people may prefer Goku's early FUNi Superman persona a better experience than the original incarnation, for instance.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

I was just about to bring that up, actually.

The staunchest dub supporters I've seen will insist on such things as the series being Japanese not actually meaning anything, thus "the Japanese is the original vision" holds no water, and that the FUNi dub added characterization and personality where little to none existed in the series before, either because anime in Japanese is fundamentally trope-tastic and thus incapable genuine creative expression (As someone who often does feel that way, hearing this applied to Dragon Ball of all things is comic) or for whatever hangup they have with Dragon Ball in particular, while reminding all concerned that the plot the got through (it did, lets not pretend otherwise). No need to argue if you have selective criteria that renders any and all discussion on the matter the ire of those darned weeabos.

Part of it is momentary, flash-in-the-pan gut reactions to Nozawa's Goku, of course, which Super is doubtlessly doing a good job of ironing out for some. You clearly don't hate her as much as you say you do if you've potentially watched two movies and 60+ episodes of her on the internet.

[TheBlackPaladin]

I also wonder if the inferior audio quality of the original Japanese version has turned off some people, thinking that it makes the show sound "old." Yes, I now know that the original broadcast audio was of much higher quality...but only from being on Kanzenshuu (then still Daizenshuu EX). Until somebody posted a sample several years ago, I was always of the belief that the muffled audio tracks of the official DVD releases were just how the show sounded. I had no idea that the original broadcast audio was of much higher quality, that it was downgraded for re-runs and home video, and that Toei threw out the original audio materials.

Needless to say, this hasn't been a problem with the more recent releases...and I can't help but wonder if perhaps people would be more open to the original Japanese version if the original broadcast audio was retained.