Was Black the "Evil Goku" you wanted?

[DBZAOTA482]

Black went way beyond that, brotha. He's a much better "Evil Goku" than Tullece.

[HeroR]

Goku can turn evil. Goku can do anything. It's up to the writers to make it believable. That's also why I said he could be an antagonist. He doesn't necessarily need to be evil to be an antagonist.

At some point, a character write themselves and there are some things a character won't do without rewriting the character. Goku, as he is, won't turn 'evil'. The closest that is within Goku's character is becoming apathetic or a berserker like Gohan during the Cell Games or himself on Namek. He will never be like Vegeta when he first comes to Earth or even like Cell since Goku has never had an interest in terrorizing weaklings.

As for being an antagonist, the closest I can see is a Marvel Civil War situation, no I don't mean in the super hero registration. I mean in there is a split in ideas among the core cast. Even then, a lot of crap has to happen to reach the point of Goku fighting his own friends, unless you mean an antagonist to a third party.

[Doctor.]

Goku can turn evil. Goku can do anything. It's up to the writers to make it believable. That's also why I said he could be an antagonist. He doesn't necessarily need to be evil to be an antagonist.

At some point, a character write themselves and there are some things a character won't do without rewriting the character. Goku, as he is, won't turn 'evil'. The closest that is within Goku's character is becoming apathetic or a berserker like Gohan during the Cell Games or himself on Namek. He will never be like Vegeta when he first comes to Earth or even like Cell since Goku has never had an interest in terrorizing weaklings.

As for being an antagonist, the closest I can see is a Marvel Civil War situation, no I don't mean in the super hero registration. I mean in there is a split in ideas among the core cast. Even then, a lot of crap has to happen to reach the point of Goku fighting his own friends, unless you mean an antagonist to a third party.

Again, Goku can turn evil with the right motivation, any character can. You just don't do such a big change to a character's personality in one arc, it's too drastic, it will feel forced and the audience will hate it. You develop the character through multiple arcs and introduce character flaws and dubious actions every arc and at the point he turns evil, everyone can say the signs were there and that it wasn't something so out there. Of course Goku right now turning evil for no reason would be stupid, I'm not denying that, but you can develop a character in any way you want. Saying a character absolutely can't do something is just being narrow-minded with your writing.

[Fionordequester]

Again, Goku can turn evil with the right motivation, any character can. You just don't do such a big change to a character's personality in one arc, it's too drastic, it will feel forced and the audience will hate it. You develop the character through multiple arcs and introduce character flaws and dubious actions every arc and at the point he turns evil, everyone can say the signs were there and that it wasn't something so out there. Of course Goku right now turning evil for no reason would be stupid, I'm not denying that, but you can develop a character in any way you want. Saying a character absolutely can't do something is just being narrow-minded with your writing.

One thing to keep in mind is that morality is a choice; I do not believe that we are deterministic creatures whose actions are determined only by what did or did not happen to us. See any number of Christians and Jews who were tortured and killed for defying their government, or those who have lost families to events like the Holocaust. In fact, there are many who actually increased their devotion to their moral code despite how terrible their lives became.

Point is, it's not just a matter of "putting Goku in the right situation". If he's not going to choose to be evil...he's just not going to choose to be evil. Period. In fact, he may even become LESS evil theo

[TheUltimateNinja]

Again, Goku can turn evil with the right motivation, any character can. You just don't do such a big change to a character's personality in one arc, it's too drastic, it will feel forced and the audience will hate it. You develop the character through multiple arcs and introduce character flaws and dubious actions every arc and at the point he turns evil, everyone can say the signs were there and that it wasn't something so out there. Of course Goku right now turning evil for no reason would be stupid, I'm not denying that, but you can develop a character in any way you want. Saying a character absolutely can't do something is just being narrow-minded with your writing.

Maybe he becomes angry that Vegeta is such a jobber and decides to become evil.

[HeroR]

Again, Goku can turn evil with the right motivation, any character can. You just don't do such a big change to a character's personality in one arc, it's too drastic, it will feel forced and the audience will hate it. You develop the character through multiple arcs and introduce character flaws and dubious actions every arc and at the point he turns evil, everyone can say the signs were there and that it wasn't something so out there. Of course Goku right now turning evil for no reason would be stupid, I'm not denying that, but you can develop a character in any way you want. Saying a character absolutely can't do something is just being narrow-minded with your writing.

One thing to keep in mind is that morality is a choice; I do not believe that we are deterministic creatures whose actions are determined only by what did or did not happen to us. See any number of Christians and Jews who were tortured and killed for defying their government, or those who have lost families to events like the Holocaust. In fact, there are many who actually increased their devotion to their moral code despite how terrible their lives became.

Point is, it's not just a matter of "putting Goku in the right situation". If he's not going to choose to be evil...he's just not going to choose to be evil. Period. In fact, he may even become LESS evil theo

This is what I mean. It was even the main theme of Dark Knight. The Joker put Harvey and Batman through hell and took someone dear to them. Harvey broke and gave into his despair to become Two-Face. Batman stood steadfast and became even more devoted that the world hasn't ended. As the Joker put it, he was incorruptible. Some people simply won't break no matter how much you screw them. And if they do break, they're more likely to turn on themselves than become a raving lunatic. Going even further back, the Killer Joke was all about how there has to be something wrong with you to begin with to have one bad day that turns you into lunatic.

Goku, from what we have seen of him, wouldn't become Two-Face even if you take everything from him. He would most likely become an apathetic blood knight, like Beerus, or a sadistic berserker who mercilessly tears apart those he sees as evil. Nothing in Goku's history shows him becoming a mass murderer who kills innocents or turn on his remaining friends if he had any.

[dragonballhero]

Goku can turn evil. Goku can do anything. It's up to the writers to make it believable. That's also why I said he could be an antagonist. He doesn't necessarily need to be evil to be an antagonist.

The most plausible way to go about it is to do what Super implied with Beerus: he gets monumentally bored with nothing to challenge him so he starts going around, stirring trouble in hopes of meeting a strong opponent and getting progressively more frustrated as he can't find anyone to fill these shoes. I'd even say a messed up version of Oob would work great in this scenario, someone Goku feels a lot of potential in and who's life he destroys so he can inspire this individual to train as hard as possible to fight him some day.

This sounds vaguely familiar to me....

Wait a minute...
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Fun fact: He and Lord Beerus share the same JP voice actor!

[ekrolo2]

Goku can turn evil. Goku can do anything. It's up to the writers to make it believable. That's also why I said he could be an antagonist. He doesn't necessarily need to be evil to be an antagonist.

The most plausible way to go about it is to do what Super implied with Beerus: he gets monumentally bored with nothing to challenge him so he starts going around, stirring trouble in hopes of meeting a strong opponent and getting progressively more frustrated as he can't find anyone to fill these shoes. I'd even say a messed up version of Oob would work great in this scenario, someone Goku feels a lot of potential in and who's life he destroys so he can inspire this individual to train as hard as possible to fight him some day.

This sounds vaguely familiar to me....

Wait a minute...
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Fun fact: He and Lord Beerus share the same JP voice actor!

I don't get the reference

[dragonballhero]

The most plausible way to go about it is to do what Super implied with Beerus: he gets monumentally bored with nothing to challenge him so he starts going around, stirring trouble in hopes of meeting a strong opponent and getting progressively more frustrated as he can't find anyone to fill these shoes. I'd even say a messed up version of Oob would work great in this scenario, someone Goku feels a lot of potential in and who's life he destroys so he can inspire this individual to train as hard as possible to fight him some day.

This sounds vaguely familiar to me....

Wait a minute...
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Fun fact: He and Lord Beerus share the same JP voice actor!

I don't get the reference

What I meant was that Cody (the main protagonist of the Final Fight videogame series) eventually got SOOOO bored with all the peace in Metro City following the events of the first Final Fight videogame, that he himself started picking more and more fights around town, placing him in jail. Mind you, this was all despite his rescuing of the mayor's daughter, AND liberating the ENTIRE city from the rule of the Mad Gear Gang. Yep, he was SOOO bored, that he started picking fights. Something Goku would almost undoubtedly do if given the chance, and that's probably closest we'll see to the REAL Goku becoming an antagonist.

Heck, BEERUS is sort of doing the exact same thing RIGHT NOW, though no one but the Omni-King can incarcerate him causing trouble like that.

BTW, Koichi Yamadera voiced Cody back in Street Fighter Alpha 3, and Yamadera is currently voicing Beerus in all DB material ever since his first appearance in the film version of BoG.

[Doctor.]

Again, Goku can turn evil with the right motivation, any character can. You just don't do such a big change to a character's personality in one arc, it's too drastic, it will feel forced and the audience will hate it. You develop the character through multiple arcs and introduce character flaws and dubious actions every arc and at the point he turns evil, everyone can say the signs were there and that it wasn't something so out there. Of course Goku right now turning evil for no reason would be stupid, I'm not denying that, but you can develop a character in any way you want. Saying a character absolutely can't do something is just being narrow-minded with your writing.

One thing to keep in mind is that morality is a choice; I do not believe that we are deterministic creatures whose actions are determined only by what did or did not happen to us. See any number of Christians and Jews who were tortured and killed for defying their government, or those who have lost families to events like the Holocaust. In fact, there are many who actually increased their devotion to their moral code despite how terrible their lives became.

Point is, it's not just a matter of "putting Goku in the right situation". If he's not going to choose to be evil...he's just not going to choose to be evil. Period. In fact, he may even become LESS evil theo

This is what I mean. It was even the main theme of Dark Knight. The Joker put Harvey and Batman through hell and took someone dear to them. Harvey broke and gave into his despair to become Two-Face. Batman stood steadfast and became even more devoted that the world hasn't ended. As the Joker put it, he was incorruptible. Some people simply won't break no matter how much you screw them. And if they do break, they're more likely to turn on themselves than become a raving lunatic. Going even further back, the Killer Joke was all about how there has to be something wrong with you to begin with to have one bad day that turns you into lunatic.

Goku, from what we have seen of him, wouldn't become Two-Face even if you take everything from him. He would most likely become an apathetic blood knight, like Beerus, or a sadistic berserker who mercilessly tears apart those he sees as evil. Nothing in Goku's history shows him becoming a mass murderer who kills innocents or turn on his remaining friends if he had any.

We're getting into very ethical and moral viewpoints here, but I personally believe even the purest of souls can break under specific circumstances. In the context of DB, now that I think about it, the Super Saiyan segment of the Namek arc was supposed to be Goku's "evil moment" and he held his personality together by the end and didn't succumb, so that's probably the closest he'd get, but I don't think that it's that out there that he'd change permanently with the right build-up and development beforehand. Well, you could say he stops being Goku at the point he turns evil, and I'd argue that's precisely the point.

[TheMohawkAndroid]

Can't really see Goku being evil otherwise so yea I thought he was a cool villain. I really like Turles so I dunno how much opinion counts here.

[omaro34]

YES, WAY BETTER THAN TULLECE

[Booze Sama]

No, Tullece was/is. However, I wanted Black to be what "Superboy Prime" was to DC.

[kinisking]

Black was so much better than expected. I didn't want an evil goku, and thank God we didn't get one.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Again, Goku can turn evil with the right motivation, any character can. You just don't do such a big change to a character's personality in one arc, it's too drastic, it will feel forced and the audience will hate it. You develop the character through multiple arcs and introduce character flaws and dubious actions every arc and at the point he turns evil, everyone can say the signs were there and that it wasn't something so out there. Of course Goku right now turning evil for no reason would be stupid, I'm not denying that, but you can develop a character in any way you want. Saying a character absolutely can't do something is just being narrow-minded with your writing.

One thing to keep in mind is that morality is a choice; I do not believe that we are deterministic creatures whose actions are determined only by what did or did not happen to us. See any number of Christians and Jews who were tortured and killed for defying their government, or those who have lost families to events like the Holocaust. In fact, there are many who actually increased their devotion to their moral code despite how terrible their lives became.

Point is, it's not just a matter of "putting Goku in the right situation". If he's not going to choose to be evil...he's just not going to choose to be evil. Period. In fact, he may even become LESS evil theo

I agree with this 100%. Even trying to slowly write it into his character would be a comlete and utter failure. He's over 40 years old in Super if you count ROSAT as well as the time he was dead. He is mentally mature and his moral code isn't going to change for no reason. Slowly becoming evil would be ridiculous considering no signs showed for 40+ years of life.

Yes you CAN write it to happen. That doesn't mean it's a good idea....and this view isn't "narrow minded" as someone else rudely stated. Rather its taking into account how sentient beings actually act.

Let's face it...nothing Goku faces can make him "Evil" at this point. He has died, his friends have died, planets have been destroyed, his wife and child have been killed (in the future) he's seen a doomed timeline and even become friends with Zeno. Please someone tell me what would make Goku turn evil at this point because Id love to hear it.

As to morality I'd argue anyone who can be broken is incredibly weak and never had any morals to begin with.

The only way for there to be an evil Goku that makes ANY sense is either a Clone raised to be that way or someone making a wish with the Super Dragon Balls.

[Nekis13]

Never expected to get an Evil Goku.

Didn't really see Black as an Evil Goku.

But he still delivered. Like, A LOT.

[Nano]

I didn't like it. The entire saga was bad IMHO. Way too much time traveling bullshit. Time traveling always screws up a story. It makes things way too complicated... Especially when there's a multiverse involved.

Black Goku is another Ginyu Goku concept. It's just a rehashed idea.

Akira Toriyama ruined Super.

They should of just had Goku hit his head where he did as a baby and turn back into his evil saiyan self and went from there.

[GodKaio-Ken]

I didn't like it. The entire saga was bad IMHO. Way too much time traveling bullshit. Time traveling always screws up a story. It makes things way too complicated... Especially when there's a multiverse involved.

Black Goku is another Ginyu Goku concept. It's just a rehashed idea.

Akira Toriyama ruined Super.

They should of just had Goku hit his head where he did as a baby and turn back into his evil saiyan self and went from there.

I don't see why you feel the need to post so much about a show you apparently hate so much. I mean don't get me wrong its totally your right...but if you dislike it so so so much you can probably find something more productive to do for yourself and the world.

Also the Goku not hitting his head thing is so contrived and basic. It's lazy lazy lazy writing but I guess some people think thats better. Not that Super has great writing to begin with but the entire idea makes 0 sense.

[Fishman]

Black went way beyond that, brotha. He's a much better "Evil Goku" than Tullece.

Goku Black wasn't even a better Captain Ginyu, much less Tullece.

[DBZAOTA482]

Black went way beyond that, brotha. He's a much better "Evil Goku" than Tullece.

Goku Black wasn't even a better Captain Ginyu, much less Tullece.

Captain Ginyu is better than Tullece.