GodKaio-Ken wrote:1: You say the gap should only take 1 million years or less. What if the other Kaio had been training for 2 million years more already? Why should he be able to cover that gap in 1 million? The fact is we don't know and everything beyond "we don't know" is speculation at best. - Note the 1 and 2 million here are just made up numbers to prove the point.
I didn't say that the gap should take 1 million years or less. I said that, to prevent the destruction of the universe, becoming stronger should be an important tool and if he can't match his fellow Kaioshin's power in millions of years of training, he is weaker than his fellow Kaioshins.
2: His job is not to keep the universe from being obliterated. The Kaioshin only tried to stop Buu because he attacked them first. Their general goal in any situation is to GUIDE mortals and help them achieve goals on their own. It is not their job to fight for us.
If it wasn't part of their job to prevent the destruction of the universe (by fighting when necessary), our Kaioshin wouldn't attack Bibidi when he brought Buu's ball to Earth with the objective of destroying Earth, nor would our Kaioshin been willing to fight himself against Babidi and his minions alongside humans, and nor would such emphasis been made about the destruction that Buu had caused, and our Kaioshin would instead just direct the humans to fight them while he remained in his realm not fighting until someone actually attacked him there.
Heck, if Kaioshins direct mortals to prevent massive destruction, that alone means there can be no doubt that that prevention is part of their job, and the only doubt is if they also prevent it by fighting themselves when necessary... But we saw in the series that Kaioshin fought and was willing to fight himself not just on his realm but also outside of his realm to prevent such destruction, so, imo, there's not even a real doubt about that part.
Also, in the manga, as far as I can tell, it never actually says where the Kaioshins fought Buu and who attacked first. It's the anime that shows that.
Finally, all Kaioshins knew how to fight and were very powerful compared to the rest of the universe (able to kill Freeza in one blow), so, saying that that is coincidental and pointless to their job makes no sense to me given what we see happening in the series. There is a point to their strength, and we see that point when they actually intervene.
3: We never see the other Kaioshin in action. He may have bridged the gap and he's just unsure of himself and/or humble. Again we don't know. All speculation.
And I've always talked about "if".
If he can't reach his fellow Kaioshin's power and
if he is not willing to. Obviously, if he has indeed bridged that gap and has reached his potential, then he is not incompetent, nor he is weak compared to his fellow Kaioshin, he is just weak compared to the gang and people like Freeza that can reach SSJB power in just a few months of training.
4: If I dropped you a book on quantum mechanics written in German you could have 100000000000000000 years and never understand it without a teacher. He is supposed to figure out everything on his own somehow? Great logic here.
Becoming stronger is not like guessing how a foreign language works or the logic behind a scientific book without any reference. There are probably infinite ways to train and become stronger, as well as infinite techniques and methods. He could have developed his training on his own or he could have studied all the relevant martial arts techniques and training methods in existence all over the universe throughout all those millions of years. Our Kaioshin didn't have to copy whatever the other Kaioshin did, he could have gone with a completely different path, even a much less efficient one, and still get the same level of power eventually.
If he is willing to match that power but couldn't in all those millions of years, unless the power of the other Kaioshins was only thanks to something that couldn't be achieved any other way no matter the method and how long (which is something that it's never even hinted at), then Kaioshin is weaker than his fellow Kaioshin of the same rank and species as him.
(Also, thanks for the "great logic" comment... Surely, such comments always elevate the level of the discussion being had...)
5: The Kaioshin of other universes are never shown. It's entirely possible that for some reason our Kaioshin are stronger than average and he was only weak in comparison to U7. Again there is no way to know and its all speculation.
And I'm mainly talking within universe 7.
So basically nothing you said can be proven using anything. Its your opinion and no more.
If you say so... It sounds to me that I offered valid and reasonable arguments for what I said and that I was always clear regarding exactly what I said, making it clear that I was talking about possibilities, always talking about the "if", and that you tried to discredit it all as having no validity whatsoever by demanding an unreasonable concept of "proof" for those arguments like I was arguing something as obvious and unworthy of discussion as Goku's hair being black or not, or by using comparisons that don't really work.
Luso Saiyan wrote:...
As far as I can tell, the topic was about us fans offering our hindsight, opinion and arguments about whether or not our Kaioshin should be considered incompetent and/or weak. I have done that, saying that if certain possibilities are true, like him not being willing to become stronger, he is or should be considered incompetent given what we know of the series. Saying something like "we don't know absolutely everything about their world, there might be something that we don't know at work here that could justify it or make your argument not true" is basically a cop-out, a way to discredit any meaningful discussion regarding anything less than perfectly obvious. What's the point of that...? If you, basically like GodKaio-Ken, will discredit all arguments, wether or not they are valid and reasonable, if you think they can't be proven as easily as Goku's hair being black or something similar to that, there's no point in even engaging in a discussion less clear and obvious than that...
But, anyway, if you really want me to, I will even say and stress what it should have been clear from the start to everyone:
my posts reflect my hindsight, opinions and arguments regarding the issue at hand. When I conclude something or when I don't use "imo", I'm not saying that it's literally impossible for other opinions or possibilities to exist, I'm just saying that that is my conclusion and that other possibilities/opinions, especially regarding things that are unknowable, don't really seem likely, feasible or possible to me in comparison or don't make sense for me within the context of the series. Obviously, basically anything is possible as a rule but I don't see any point in stressing that after every argument I make nor do I see the point in writing "imo" after every sentence.
Is that better...? Surely, I think that much should been implicit from the start, but whatever...
