DB/Fiction's Handling of Diversity

[Doctor.]

I don't get it, so, you like Oob because he's (seemingly) indian? Why is that important to the character?

I don't care about fulfilling some quota, Dragon Ball is perfectly fine being a representation of Toriyama's mind.

[ekrolo2]

Vocal minorities. They are often very successful in appearing to be many or most people especially online, but that's about it.

The problem is people keep listening to them whether they're right or wrong. Video games in particular are getting extremely chicken shit about stepping on their toes even if the complaining is baseless or completely overblown.

Well, after what they did to Dorne in the show, I think it's safe to say that there is some undercurrent of sexism with the showrunners. I think the issue with Game of Thrones was more of a long-time problem with the show coming to a boil, moreso than one specific event. A lot of which could have been solved by leaving Dorne alone and keeping Arianne, who is probably the best-written female character in the series, but nope. Jamie and Bronn's misadventures in Porne it is.

Dorne was definitely botched, there's no two ways about it, I'm just annoyed by how people are selectively sensitive to violence or general things happening in stories. I'm shocked Renly getting killed didn't elicit a "How dare you do this to an LGBT character!" outburst or hell, Loras getting roasted alive in last season's finale.

[Doctor.]

It doesn't matter if they're "vocal minorities", because the complaints are getting results regardless. Too much art is being changed to please people's sensitivities.

[rereboy]

Vocal minorities. They are often very successful in appearing to be many or most people especially online, but that's about it.

The problem is people keep listening to them whether they're right or wrong. Video games in particular are getting extremely chicken shit about stepping on their toes even if the complaining is baseless or completely overblown.

That's nothing new. There have always been plenty of people lacking common sense, and being somewhat stupid, loud, inconvenient and so on, and people listening to them. People just have more visibility now because everyone is online and in social media, and even the mass media focus on things like that because controversial things that "trigger" people get them more views and money than real journalism.

You are just seeing the enhanced visibility, nothing more.

It doesn't matter if they're "vocal minorities", because the complaints are getting results regardless. Too much art is being changed to please people's sensitivities.

Also nothing new at all, and it's not just a one-way street. The enhanced visibility might allow them to have greater reach but it actually works both ways. For example, people who criticize the "politically correct" and have conservative views and so on also have much greater reach with this enhanced visibility.

In short, the current situation just allows people to be more effective with their vocal criticisms and their "nagging". Their actual ideas are completely independent from that, though. Two people from opposite sides of the spectrum can be vocal and "nag" and they will benefit from this enhanced visibility in pretty much the same way.

[floofychan333]

Violence against any character we love is hard-hitting but seeing violence against Videl and kid Gohan is just more despicable. Some honourable warriors in ancient times would pillage but spare the women and children, and this sense of honour continues to this day.

Yes violence against any characters we love is hard-hitting. But I could not give one single fuck if violence is against Videl or Goten. Those warrior's are despicable monsters, who still pillage and burn, and kill, and murder, people,. But they let go of the women and children. So their A-OK!

I'm not saying violence is OK in our lives. I'm just stating that even the most despicable warriors had the honour to leave the women and children, so when a villain attacks a woman or a child, it makes you hate them even more.

[Gog]

I'm not saying violence is OK in our lives. I'm just stating that even the most despicable warriors had the honour to leave the women and children, so when a villain attacks a woman or a child, it makes you hate them even more.

They only let the women, and the children grow, not out of honor but out of what they had been taught. And even then they wouldn't do that, they would still kill the kids, and rape the women. And even if they didn't do that, why the hell would they let them live? Honestly the only thing that happened when Gohan was getting his shit beat by Reecome, was how fucking funny it was, and when Videl was being beat up by Sovopich I admired how brutal the fight was.

I wasn't like, oh ma god Videl a women is being beat up by Sovopich a man. I must hate him more

[Doctor.]

Also nothing new at all, and it's not just a one-way street. The enhanced visibility might allow them to have greater reach but it actually works both ways. For example, people who criticize the "politically correct" and have conservative views and so on also have much greater reach with this enhanced visibility.

In short, the current situation just allows people to be more effective with their vocal criticisms and their "nagging". Their actual ideas are completely independent from that, though. Two people from opposite sides of the spectrum can be vocal and "nag" and they will benefit from this enhanced visibility in pretty much the same way.

I don't see what your point is. There's only "nagging" from one side because the other side is so overwhelmingly obnoxious that they're censoring art and free speech as we know it. If "SJWs" (I dislike the term, but it's appropriate here) didn't have such a big effect on our liberal society, then there would be no complaints coming from the other side.

[ekrolo2]

I don't see what your point is. There's only "nagging" from one side because the other side is so overwhelmingly obnoxious that they're censoring art and free speech as we know it. If "SJWs" (I dislike the term, but it's appropriate here) didn't have such a big effect on our liberal society, then there would be no complaints coming from the other side.

It's not only that they have a big effect, it's that they're twisting a fundamentally good idea into "WAH WAH WAH STOP SAYING OR DOING THINGS THAT MAKE ME FEEL BAD!". It's not about respecting other people for their differences, it's using said differences to attack people who disagree with their agenda by coming off as faux paragons of virtue.

Croatia might be a borderline third world country only slightly less corrupt than Gotham City, but our semi-Cold War-era approach to education would NEVER let something as absurd as a fucking safe space happen here.

[rereboy]

Also nothing new at all, and it's not just a one-way street. The enhanced visibility might allow them to have greater reach but it actually works both ways. For example, people who criticize the "politically correct" and have conservative views and so on also have much greater reach with this enhanced visibility.

In short, the current situation just allows people to be more effective with their vocal criticisms and their "nagging". Their actual ideas are completely independent from that, though. Two people from opposite sides of the spectrum can be vocal and "nag" and they will benefit from this enhanced visibility in pretty much the same way.

I don't see what your point is. There's only "nagging" from one side because the other side is so overwhelmingly obnoxious that they're censoring art and free speech as we know it. If "SJWs" (I dislike the term, but it's appropriate here) didn't have such a big effect on our liberal society, then there would be no complaints coming from the other side.

The point is that you make it sound like it was something new or like it was exclusive to any given group or idea. In fact, it's something that has always existed and will always exist.

People not liking things and trying to change or produce stuff (including art) to fit what they like? Literally, always been around and it has happened regarding all kinds of people and all kinds of ideas from all the points of the political spectrum. There has always been and there will always be people who don't like how things are and will try to change them in some way and be vocal about it.

Sometimes, if they are loud enough, they succeed in changing some stuff... and most of the time, people who don't like the change start being the ones being loud and putting pressure to change it... and so on... round and round we go...

The only real difference is that nowadays there's an enhanced visibility and people can be more effective in their pressure and in their "nagging" even with fewer numbers, but it works both ways, it doesn't work for just a single group or idea.

[JulieYBM]

Dragon Ball and real world issues are a million miles apart. Toriyama himself doesn't seem to be the sort to be invested in his own nation's issues, let alone the issues of the west. Diversity is not something to be thrusted upon the otherwise harmless and inoffensive.

[rereboy]

Diversity is not something to be thrusted upon the otherwise harmless and inoffensive.

Good line, I agree.

[Kid Buu]

If you read Journey to the West, the story the series is based on, the protagonists do go to India at the end. So to me that seemed like the basis on why Toriyama gave Uub South Asian physical characteristics.

That said, to me all of Goku's human Z-Fighter friends could pass off as East Asian (Yajirobe, Krillin, etc.), whom would be considered people of color by a western perspective.

Females though, I agree that they kinda got the shaft. #18 not being part of the battle ROF battle despite being much stronger than most of them was silly to me.

[Cipher]

Re: Dragon Ball: The series has its blemishes, which I think we're all aware of, but one of the things I do want to give it credit for, along with most Toriyama works, and which an old girlfriend pointed out to me, is that the female characters always feel like people. They represent a wide variety of personalities. For the most part, they're as engaging as the guys. The gender is incidental.

That said, I'm always hoping to see it do better, especially in terms of having a few more maintain roles as powerful fighters (in a world in which cosmic strength can be determined by spiritual energy, what are the odds all the top universal fighters would lean so predominantly male?; I was genuinely a little put off there wasn't a single female competitor in the Universe 6 arc), and moving away from some of the limp housewife characterization that has weakened #18 and Videl in Super, however slightly, both of whom are great characters in the original run. The new material has finally moved away from some of the pervert humor, which I'm glad for, with full acknowledgment that the actual delivery/timing of some of the old Kame-Sennin and Senbei comedy is genuinely funny.

Now, re: "Forced diversity": Can someone give me a coherent definition of what it actually is? Because I've never actually seen one. It seems more artificial than anything that everyone should be straight, male and white. Isn't diversifying media just ... being more realistic than would've fit the status quo fifty years ago?

I get that you can have tokenism, where lipservice is paid to a diverse cast, but only the most exaggerated elements of someone's background make it through, or a character is unbelievably stripped of the identity that might come with their background. But I find that isn't what people are usually discussing when they bring up "forced diversity." Fighting against tokenism would be arguing for more thoughtful portrayals. Fighting against "forced diversity" doesn't seem to be interested in verisimilitude, but rather just arguing that placing more women or non-whites or queer characters at the fore is somehow ... less authentic? Regardless of how well they're portrayed? Which, like, lol?

Like, I don't get it? Can someone explain it to me in a way that isn't just arguing there should be a straight white male default?

[Doctor.]

Now, re: "Forced diversity": Can someone give me a coherent definition of what it actually is? Because I've never actually seen one. It seems more artificial than anything that everyone should be straight, male and white. Isn't diversifying media just ... being more realistic than would've fit the status quo fifty years ago?

Dragon Ball gets rebooted. Goku is now an obese, black, lesbian because every one of those marginalized groups needs to be represented in their favorite cartoon series. Obviously this is hyperbole, but you get the picture.

Changing Thor, a well-established superhero icon, into a woman for seemingly no reason at all is forced diversity.

[Cipher]

Dragon Ball gets rebooted. Goku is now an obese, black, lesbian because every one of those marginalized groups needs to be represented in their favorite cartoon series. Obviously this is hyperbole, but you get the picture.

Changing Thor, a well-established superhero icon, into a woman for seemingly no reason at all is forced diversity.

Ah, if only the Internet at large were so clear about it only applying to changes in established individual characters. I haven't really found that to be the case.

[ABED]

Now, re: "Forced diversity": Can someone give me a coherent definition of what it actually is? Because I've never actually seen one. It seems more artificial than anything that everyone should be straight, male and white. Isn't diversifying media just ... being more realistic than would've fit the status quo fifty years ago?

Is Japan an incredibly diverse country? Last I checked it's not full of white males. I don't know about coherent definition, but it's when the fact of diversity takes precedence over story and character and creativity.

Fighting against "forced diversity" doesn't seem to be interested in verisimilitude, but rather just arguing that placing more women or non-whites or queer characters at the fore is somehow ... less authentic? Which, like, lol?

Does every context justify it? Yeah the world has more females, but does that mean stories should reflect this fact?

Changing Thor, a well-established superhero icon, into a woman for seemingly no reason at all is forced diversity.

Not just superhero, he's a Norse God with a day that's named after him.

[Cipher]

Is Japan an incredibly diverse country? Last I checked it's not full of white males. I don't know about coherent definition, but it's when the fact of diversity takes precedence over story and character and creativity.

I wasn't talking exclusively about Japan, since "forced diversity" usually gets thrown at Western media. Japan has a totally different relationship with racial diversity than America. It's cool when they get a bit more diverse, but outside of gender representation and avoiding really negative stereotypes, I don't really expect their media to have incredibly varied casts. Especially when dominant visuals in anime trend toward racially ambiguous (but definitely lighter-skined) characters in the first place.

Yeah the world has more females, but does that mean stories should reflect this fact?

Yes!

I mean, that's assuming we're talking about fiction with huge casts set in fantasy worlds instead of a personal story about two brothers limited to a three-person cast. Get small enough in scope and anything goes, but when you have giant superhero worlds and people are like, "Yo, where's all the non-whites/ladies?" and your only answer is like, "Uh, well, they aren't here because this world was created in an era where white males controlled most popular media," it's like ... uuuuuuuh?

[Doctor.]

Dragon Ball gets rebooted. Goku is now an obese, black, lesbian because every one of those marginalized groups needs to be represented in their favorite cartoon series. Obviously this is hyperbole, but you get the picture.

Changing Thor, a well-established superhero icon, into a woman for seemingly no reason at all is forced diversity.

Ah, if only the Internet at large were so clear about it only applying to changes in established individual characters. I haven't really found that to be the case.

The reason so many characters are straight, white males is because most writers are... well, straight, white males. People have an easier time writing about things they know about. You won't write a book about depression if you've never been depressed, you won't write a book on success if you're poor. Creating a character that the author can feel comfortable writing is usually a gateway for many (mediocre) writers.

The fact that casts have become so diverse is a recent thing. And it's likely due to the fact that social issues are extremely hot topics right now. This either leaves writers writing minorities to appeal to these crowds and get a lot of $$$ as a result, or it leaves writers less comfortable writing characters and being pressured into writing something they don't want to, thus limiting their art.

The complaint that there is "forced diversity" doesn't come from a bigot's viewpoint. It comes from the viewpoint of the people who feel like the portrayal of these marginalized groups in media recently doesn't feel genuine.

[ABED]

Is Japan an incredibly diverse country? Last I checked it's not full of white males. I don't know about coherent definition, but it's when the fact of diversity takes precedence over story and character and creativity.

I wasn't talking exclusively about Japan, since "forced diversity" usually gets thrown at Western media. Japan has a totally different relationship with racial diversity than America. It's cool when they get a bit more diverse, but outside of gender representation and avoiding really negative stereotypes, I don't really expect their media to have incredibly varied casts. Especially when dominant visuals in anime trend toward racially ambiguous (but definitely lighter-skined) characters in the first place.

Yeah the world has more females, but does that mean stories should reflect this fact?

Yes!

Even if it's a coming of age story about a group of young boys, the story should have more girls in it? When I wrote "stories" I don't mean in general, I mean each individual story? Should each story have more females in it than males? And does diversity just mean "non-straight white males" to you?

[Cipher]

Even if it's a coming of age story about a group of young boys, the story should have more girls in it? When I wrote "stories" I don't mean in general, I mean each individual story? Should each story have more females in it than males?

Post above amended.

I mean, that's assuming we're talking about fiction with huge casts set in fantasy worlds instead of a personal story about two brothers limited to a three-person cast. Get small enough in scope and anything goes, but when you have giant superhero worlds and people are like, "Yo, where's all the non-whites/ladies?" and your only answer is like, "Uh, well, they aren't here because this world was created in an era where white males controlled most popular media," it's like ... uuuuuuuh?

And does diversity just mean "non-straight white males" to you?

No. I also think there should be more ghosts and robots.

The reason so many characters are straight, white males is because most writers are... well, straight, white males. People have an easier time writing about things they know about. You won't write a book about depression if you've never been depressed, you won't write a book on success if you're poor. Creating a character that the author can feel comfortable writing is usually a gateway for many (mediocre) writers.

So because society once only tolerated and expected works featuring and by straight, white males, we're just supposed to take that as a default from which deviating is bad? Do you see how that's ... kind of an issue? You talk about "limiting" art, but that's exactly what led to non-diverse casts dominating popular fiction in the first place. You had to be a certain way to write this stuff, and your characters had to be a certain way to gain traction and not become niche.

As a white, male writer myself, I'd feel like a huge failure if I couldn't write someone who didn't match my exact background. I don't go out of my way to include checkboxed demographics in every short story I tackle, but if I were put in charge of an expansive fantasy universe, would I think twice about whether every focal character should be a straight, white dude? Hell yeah. That's just not realistic, and we've had decades and decades of it.

The complaint that there is "forced diversity" doesn't come from a bigot's viewpoint. It comes from the point of the people who feel like the portrayal of these marginalized groups in media recently doesn't feel genuine.

I don't think it's bigoted, but I don't think it comes with much reflection.

The idea that something like Star Wars, a large fantasy universe, telling a new story with a woman and black guy at the fore, is somehow less genuine than setting a story in the same world that features a cast of four or five focal white characters is incredibly suspect to me.

It's damned if you do, damned if you don't when it comes to creators just "writing what they know" too. From what I've encountered, arguments against attempts to diversify casts tend to go hand in hand with arguments against attempts to diversify writers' stables on large properties.