DB/Fiction's Handling of Diversity

[mecha3000]

I admit the Queerness in DB thread slightly inspired this topic, but with Female Broly introduced - I was going to make this thread anyway. I apologize to the moderators and users for another serious topic being put on DB, but I just find it interesting. Also, if this ends up getting moved to the Queerness topic - I understand. So, obviously - While being a timeless series, Dragon Ball also has some dated aspects to it. It almost makes me surprised that Dragon Ball has so many fans of different races and sexual preferences when the series doesn't really feature characters like those fans. Although it took Marvel a while on film and in the comics, the company is beginning to see a shift in terms of its diversity. But Dragon Ball just has a charm to it that draws in a diverse fanbase. It amazes me how many rappers are fans of DB (RZA himself believes DB is the story of the black man's journey - which is ironic that he draws this deep parallel from the same series that features Commander Black). However, DB has proven it can correct its mistakes in terms of how it presents diversity.

In Path to Power, Black has his big lips removed despite his skin tone being significantly lighter (and I'm not sure if the long face means anything). I'm joking, but perhaps just like the new Power Rangers movie - Commander Black and Blue could have their colors traded (perhaps for a future DB remake OR a potential Super filler episode) to be even more politically correct? I wouldn't mind, but at the same time - The existing character of Black doesn't bother me too much. The introduction of Uub has also ALWAYS fascinated me because Toriyama chose to make Goku's only disciple and next protector of Earth - seemingly Indian? And many fans were led to believe Uub was black, but the Indian thing still holds my interest because this is still a really diverse decision on Toriyama's part. I know conventional race might not even exist in DB, but still - Race inspirations do and Toriyama could've easily chosen a character who resembled Goku and the main cast. But he didn't. AND NOW, I WANT MORE UUB IN THE SERIES!!! Such an underrated character nowadays (or always).

And then there's the new female characters being introduced such as: Vados, Female Broly, the new Angels and Gods of Destruction, as well as Pan and Bra potentially becoming more important characters down the road. Something I've always desired from Dragon Ball is having more than ten characters in a video game who are just female (I know shonen is aimed at boys, but that doesn't define the fanbase). I don't exactly know if that's happened yet (Usually - It's Pan, Videl, Zangya, and 18 - right?). I've always wanted Oceanus Shenron (her female form), but whatever. Still, with Vados coming to Xenoverse 2 and all these newer characters being introduced in Super - Maybe my "10 female characters in a game" will become a reality? Man, I feel like a Naruto fan waiting for the Seven Swordsman to become playable in the Storm games, back when it wasn't entirely done yet.

But yeah, long story short - It's interesting to look at the past of DB in terms of diversity and into the future, where it seems like it's becoming more and more of a reality. I know diversity in DB isn't something that's necessary, but it's definitely appreciated and I hope Toei/Toriyama recognize that. I mean, if you're married to a main character like Goku or Gohan, you usually immediately become a housewife. However, I respect that a main character like Bulma is still unusually relevant (not a housewife and still helps the main characters out).

Thoughts? I know this is similar to the Queerness topic. I'm saying this because I expect a lot of "Dude, this is too similar to that other topic" or "Stop with the serious DB threads" replies. Once again, my bad if this annoys you.

[ABED]

It almost makes me surprised that Dragon Ball has so many fans of different races and sexual preferences when the series doesn't really feature characters like those fans.

It doesn't surprise me as I don't think people need to feel "represented" on screen to get invested in a story.

it took Marvel a while on film and in the comics, the company is beginning to see a shift in terms of its diversity

To an extent. I don't consider black Spider-Man, female Thor, black female Iron Man, black Captain America to be a step in the right direction. It's just repackaging older characters so SJW's and the writers can pat themselves on the back. Instead of breaking new ground and creating new characters, they use older properties and slash a paint job on it.

I'm all for female characters, but it's all about execution (isn't it always?). Story and character comes first, not a political statement.

[Kanassa]

it took Marvel a while on film and in the comics, the company is beginning to see a shift in terms of its diversity

To an extent. I don't consider black Spider-Man, female Thor, black female Iron Man, black Captain America to be a step in the right direction. It's just repackaging older characters so SJW's and the writers can pat themselves on the back. Instead of breaking new ground and creating new characters, they use older properties and slash a paint job on it.

Yeah, Marvel is not a good example for how to have diverse characters (Hell, to my knowledge those comics have been failing hard due to how they do it). Marvel are doing what I call 'forced diversity', where in an attempt to represent more, they really end up dragging down characters and in a way being more offensive towards those they're attempting to include (I'm not saying it is offensive). They even have a moment with Spider Man that perfectly shows how bad it is, with Spiderman becoming kind of uncomfortable with how excited social media is that he's the 'Black Spiderman'.

[mecha3000]

Yeah, Marvel really sucks in actually creating NEW diverse characters. I facepalmed at the thought of teenage black Iron Man. I'm not opposed to it, it's just really lazy. Why can't teenage black Iron Man just be her own character who has NOTHING to do with Iron Man? But whatever, this is a DB thread so I won't start. Anyway, yeah - With DB, the closest thing to what Marvel is doing is now FEMALE BROLY. We don't know her name yet, but she is clearly just based on Broly. Still, I forgive this because we at least get our first canon female Super Saiyan (can't wait to hear the lucky voice actresses who get to portray her) and I think of it as a more creative way to kill two birds (fans wanting a female Super Saiyan and canon Broly) with one stone. I don't know why this excites me so much, but the thought of playing as her in a video game gets me hyped!!! And she has added value because unlike Cabba, she can transform into a transformation that's actually still seen as something that's not average at this point - like Super Saiyan. For all these years, Legendary Super Saiyan has surprisingly been kept unique to Broly - So, I don't mind giving it to this new female character. Besides, she's the LSSJ seemingly of U6 so it makes perfect sense that she can attain this transformation.

Besides, the more female fighters in the series - The better!!!

[successoroffate]

I think the show should follow the same flow it had since Day one. If the flow is headed for more female characters, then so be it! But the diversity argument falls short every time. I really hate forced inclusion to please a few and I don't think the Female Broly is an attempt to diversify the franchise. There is no way of knowing if Toriyama wants to diversify but my bet is that he is adding female characters playing major roles in the show because he thinks it's "cool."

[pacz360]

It almost makes me surprised that Dragon Ball has so many fans of different races and sexual preferences when the series doesn't really feature characters like those fans.

It doesn't surprise me as I don't think people need to feel "represented" on screen to get invested in a story.

it took Marvel a while on film and in the comics, the company is beginning to see a shift in terms of its diversity

To an extent. I don't consider black Spider-Man, female Thor, black female Iron Man, black Captain America to be a step in the right direction. It's just repackaging older characters so SJW's and the writers can pat themselves on the back. Instead of breaking new ground and creating new characters, they use older properties and slash a paint job on it.

I'm all for female characters, but it's all about execution (isn't it always?). Story and character comes first, not a political statement.

^^^^^this i like strong female characters as the next guy but i prefer it to be well done instead instead of some political bullshit.

[pacz360]

Yeah, Marvel really sucks in actually creating NEW diverse characters. I facepalmed at the thought of teenage black Iron Man. I'm not opposed to it, it's just really lazy. Why can't teenage black Iron Man just be her own character who has NOTHING to do with Iron Man? But whatever, this is a DB thread so I won't start. Anyway, yeah - With DB, the closest thing to what Marvel is doing is now FEMALE BROLY. We don't know her name yet, but she is clearly just based on Broly. Still, I forgive this because we at least get our first canon female Super Saiyan (can't wait to hear the lucky voice actresses who get to portray her) and I think of it as a more creative way to kill two birds (fans wanting a female Super Saiyan and canon Broly) with one stone. I don't know why this excites me so much, but the thought of playing as her in a video game gets me hyped!!! And she has added value because unlike Cabba, she can transform into a transformation that's actually still seen as something that's not average at this point - like Super Saiyan. For all these years, Legendary Super Saiyan has surprisingly been kept unique to Broly - So, I don't mind giving it to this new female character. Besides, she's the LSSJ seemingly of U6 so it makes perfect sense that she can attain this transformation.

Besides, the more female fighters in the series - The better!!!

Well at the end of the day it depends on how they handle the character if the show gives her a personality and makes her more interesting than the original then things are going to be good.

[mecha3000]

I think the show should follow the same flow it had since Day one. If the flow is headed for more female characters, then so be it! But the diversity argument falls short every time. I really hate forced inclusion to please a few and I don't think Female Broly is an attempt to diversify the franchise. There is no way of knowing if Toriyama wants to diversify but my bet is that he is adding female characters playing major roles in the show because he thinks it's "cool."

Alright, if that's the case - Then, cool! That seems so like him anyway. I still appreciate it though because I've always been interested in the thought of a canon female Super Saiyan even as far back as being a kid! I just want to make something clear, I'm not saying I want FORCED diversity. I've always just wanted Pan and Bra to be relevant characters. I mean, come on - The granddaughter of Goku and the daughter of Vegeta!!! This isn't even about diversity, it's just about how cool it'd be to see these characters in action!!!

Also, if the series already looks to be introducing more female characters like the new gods and angels: How could I not be interested about this in terms of diversity when it had been lacking before? I know DB doesn't need more females in the same way Sailor Moon doesn't need more males, but once again - I do appreciate it when they make an effort to do so. Also, we live in 2017. I know that's a tired excuse for diversity, but the fact remains that we live in 2017. I don't want Marvel and to a degree Star Wars' forced diversity, but I still appreciate the companies keeping their fans in mind.

If DB never introduces any relevant female characters again, I wouldn't mind as long as the new arc delivers on this new Broly character and maybe even showcasing some skills from the female gods and angels (in the anime, manga, or even the video games). Besides, I'm still really interested in seeing Uub in action. I mean, forget Bra - The end of Dragon Ball clearly teases a future where Uub and Pan are relevant fighters (and Super has already teased that future with Pan and Uub being mentioned).

[Kanassa]

I know DB doesn't need more females in the same way Sailor Moon doesn't need more males,

Actually, that makes me wonder; do the communities of animes like that get the same diversity excitement when a male character gets introduced? Not trying to make a point or anything, just curious.

I don't want Marvel and to a degree Star Wars' forced diversity, but I still appreciate the companies keeping their fans in mind.

I wouldn't say Star wars is forced diversity, it's simply diversity surrounded by bad writing (In my opinion). Plus, it's made during times where forced diversity is prevalent so it's really easy to be seen as such.

[ABED]

I often wonder when the term "representation" began being used in discussing this issue. It seems like a bad idea in regard to art.

[mecha3000]

I know DB doesn't need more females in the same way Sailor Moon doesn't need more males,

Actually, that makes me wonder; do the communities of animes like that get the same diversity excitement when a male character gets introduced? Not trying to make a point or anything, just curious.

I don't want Marvel and to a degree Star Wars' forced diversity, but I still appreciate the companies keeping their fans in mind.

I wouldn't say Star wars is forced diversity, it's simply diversity surrounded by bad writing (In my opinion). Plus, it's made during times where forced diversity is prevalent so it's really easy to be seen as such.

That's why I said "to a degree" with Star Wars. Regarding Sailor Moon, I can see fans getting excited about a new male character who is introduced because it'd add something new to the franchise. Same applies with Dragon Ball. It can be seen as gimmicky to some, but the addition of a female character shakes things up. You can't deny how much the fandom has been affected by the reveal of this new Broly character (I feel like I should stop calling her Female Broly because it reminds me of She-Hulk, but until we get an official name - I can't help it). I admit half of the effect comes from her being a Broly character, but the other half is undeniably because she's a female Super Saiyan. It's like a one-two punch sort of thing.

And seriously, is it just me who is really excited to see these new female characters in the video games? For years, it had just been (I8, Pan, Videl, Zangya) - But now we're getting Vados and potentially in the future: U6 Broly character along with the new gods and angels. I wouldn't even mind playing as a variation of Bulma (possibly using Capsule Corp tech to fight. Also, I know she was almost in Budokai 3 apparently). Maybe, I should make this whole additional female game characters a topic for the video games section.....

As far as the term "representation" goes, I'm not sure I ever brought up that term. I hinted at it, yes - But I don't think I used it in this thread if that's referring to me, ABED. If I did, I do admit it is a bad idea because it can negatively affect art - But if it's used in a effective, meaningful genuine manner - I don't see a problem.

[VegettoEX]

It's just repackaging older characters so SJW's and the writers can pat themselves on the back.

This is rhetoric that I challenge you to back up.

I have yet to see people actually trot out "SJW" in a non-ironic fashion and ultimately make a point worth considering.

[ABED]

It's just repackaging older characters so SJW's and the writers can pat themselves on the back.

This is rhetoric that I challenge you to back up.

I have yet to see people actually trot out "SJW" in a non-ironic fashion and ultimately make a point worth considering.

Have you seen Mark Waid's twitter? The guy keeps touting diversity and even when someone has a shred of a credible argument against it, he calls them racist and blocks them. That's the mentality of many of these types. They aren't interested in discussion, they cry "racist" as a way to silence debate.

I don't SJW ironically. I find it to be a dangerous movement. It's barely a movement, but you can find videos and written examples of college kids acting beligerent because they were looking for something to find offensive or because someone holds different ideas than them. The call for safe spaces isn't some harmless idea. It's a dangerous precident to set at college campuses. Instead of kids hearing a bunch of different views, some they might even find abhorent, they call for these teachers or administators to be fired. If their demands are given into, the inmates will be running the asylum. If you haven't found a point worth considering, then I don't think you are looking hard enough.

As far as the term "representation" goes, I'm not sure I ever brought up that term. I hinted at it, yes - But I don't think I used it in this thread if that's referring to me, ABED. If I did, I do admit it is a bad idea because it can negatively affect art - But if it's used in a effective, meaningful genuine manner - I don't see a problem.

That post wasn't mean for anyone in particular. What I was getting at when I say it's a bad idea for art is that characters aren't seen as characters, they are thought of as representative. If you show a character in a bad light that happens to be black, does that represent all blacks?

[successoroffate]

I think the show should follow the same flow it had since Day one. If the flow is headed for more female characters, then so be it! But the diversity argument falls short every time. I really hate forced inclusion to please a few and I don't think Female Broly is an attempt to diversify the franchise. There is no way of knowing if Toriyama wants to diversify but my bet is that he is adding female characters playing major roles in the show because he thinks it's "cool."

Alright, if that's the case - Then, cool! That seems so like him anyway. I still appreciate it though because I've always been interested in the thought of a canon female Super Saiyan even as far back as being a kid! I just want to make something clear, I'm not saying I want FORCED diversity. I've always just wanted Pan and Bra to be relevant characters. I mean, come on - The granddaughter of Goku and the daughter of Vegeta!!! This isn't even about diversity, it's just about how cool it'd be to see these characters in action!!!

Also, if the series already looks to be introducing more female characters like the new gods and angels: How could I not be interested about this in terms of diversity when it had been lacking before? I know DB doesn't need more females in the same way Sailor Moon doesn't need more males, but once again - I do appreciate it when they make an effort to do so. Also, we live in 2017. I know that's a tired excuse for diversity, but the fact remains that we live in 2017. I don't want Marvel and to a degree Star Wars' forced diversity, but I still appreciate the companies keeping their fans in mind.

If DB never introduces any relevant female characters again, I wouldn't mind as long as the new arc delivers on this new Broly character and maybe even showcasing some skills from the female gods and angels (in the anime, manga, or even the video games). Besides, I'm still really interested in seeing Uub in action. I mean, forget Bra - The end of Dragon Ball clearly teases a future where Uub and Pan are relevant fighters (and Super has already teased that future with Pan and Uub being mentioned).

I would love for Pan and Bra to have major roles in Super...eventually.

[Kanassa]

And seriously, is it just me who is really excited to see these new female characters in the video games?

I enjoy that, though that's more because for DBZ games in particular the male models always look off to me. I enjoy diversity a lot from a design stand point mostly, and not for wank material

[mecha3000]

That post wasn't mean for anyone in particular. What I was getting at when I say it's a bad idea for art is that characters aren't seen as characters, they are thought of as representative. If you show a character in a bad light that happens to be black, does that represent all blacks?

Oh, okay. Makes sense. This makes me hope that the Broly character succeeds even more, but I'm afraid Super might not deliver. Still, having a female Super Saiyan still holds my interest so I have hope.

[Kanassa]

That post wasn't mean for anyone in particular. What I was getting at when I say it's a bad idea for art is that characters aren't seen as characters, they are thought of as representative. If you show a character in a bad light that happens to be black, does that represent all blacks?

Oh, okay. Makes sense. This makes me hope that the Broly character succeeds even more, but I'm afraid Super might not deliver. Still, having a female Super Saiyan still holds my interest so I have hope.

The Broly character really is gonna be hard to fuck up more than actual Broly, all they have to do is take his good parts and make an actual character around them.

[ekrolo2]

Have you seen Mark Waid's twitter? The guy keeps touting diversity and even when someone has a shred of a credible argument against it, he calls them racist and blocks them. That's the mentality of many of these types. They aren't interested in discussion, they cry "racist" as a way to silence debate.

One of the problems of the movement is that they're incredibly sensitive and selective to the idea of "being mean to your character", you HAVE to be mean to them in varying degrees to challenge them physically and emotionally. And you can do this without a peep, if your character is a straight white guy, you can make them funny, stoic, champions of justice, scumbags of the universe, alcoholics, chain smokers, and basically anything you want. If you try to do this to ANYONE, and I do mean fucking anyone else, you're called sexist or homophobic or racist because as we all know, straight white guys are the only people who can be abusive spouses or drug dealers or murderers.

For example, Theon Greyjoy can have his dick literally cut off (along with other bits and pieces) and no one cares, if you did something like this to a woman, everyone loses their shit and compares you to Hitler.

[Chuquita]

I hope girl with Brolli powers isn't just a repackaged Launch. Even if she is literally Universe 6 Brolli at least give her more personality than he had. Brolli had such a boring personality imo.

[ABED]

On Arrow, the villain Ra's al Ghul forced his daughter Nyssa, a lesbian, to marry a man. In no way did it show this in a positive light. The entire point was to make the bad guy even more of a villain. However, people on the internet went into a tizzy and shouted "How can you do that to an LBGT character!?"

As for DB, if Goku or even a 5 year old Gohan gets beaten nearly to death, the reaction is noticably different than when Pan gets the crap kicked out of her by Spopovitch. It's like Deadpool, "Is it sexist to hit you or more sexist not to hit you? It's all very confusing!"