Did Z, Super and GT need to exist?

[Asura]

I've always been shocked people don't like the Buu arc, it's an extremely rich arc with great character development and storyline, awesome fights and tons of epicness IMO

I never understood all the hate for the Buu arc either. Something tells me it stems from Gotenks but I don't know. Still my favorite arc though.

[sintzu]

I've always been shocked people don't like the Buu arc, it's an extremely rich arc with great character development and storyline, awesome fights and tons of epicness IMO

I never understood all the hate for the Buu arc either. Something tells me it stems from Gotenks but I don't know. Still my favorite arc though.

The common complain I've read is Gohan not being the one to kill off Buu. I understand why they don't like how Gohan was used but having him be the main character would've taken a lot away form Vegeta's development as Goku being the main character was the reason he developed the way he did.

[Asura]

I've always been shocked people don't like the Buu arc, it's an extremely rich arc with great character development and storyline, awesome fights and tons of epicness IMO

I never understood all the hate for the Buu arc either. Something tells me it stems from Gotenks but I don't know. Still my favorite arc though.

The common complain I've read is Gohan not being the one to kill off Buu. I understand why they don't like how Gohan was used but having him be the main character would've taken a lot away form Vegeta's development as Goku being the main character was the reason he developed the way he did.

Gohan is my favorite character but it would have felt cheap to me if he was the one to kill Buu. His power-up was necessary at the time to get him back into the fight and make it so he's not too weak to be of use compared to Gotenks, Goku, or even Vegeta, but if it was used to finish Buu off it wouldn't feel very satisfactory given all that happened was someone dancing around him for a day. I like the way the Buu saga was written and I liked the fact that it ends with only Goku and Vegeta vs Buu, in contrast to the start of the arc where it was Goku vs Vegeta resulting in Buu.

On topic though, I don't really understand the question. Does anything need to exist? It sounds very philosophical. I'd argue Z needs to exist given how DB ended, and that even GT has reason for existing given how DBZ ended with only first introducing Uub, who's supposed to be a huge major important character but doesn't show up until the very last chapter. This is also in addition to Pan being just introduced at the EoZ, so there was need to explore these new characters in GT. Super to me is the only one that doesn't really need to exist. We didn't really need to see what happens in between end of Buu and EoZ. EoZ implies that nothing has really happened, everyone's just been living in peace since Buu. There was nothing more to explain or explore.

[Xeogran]

EoZ in itself existed because Z had to end and Toriyama was getting tired of continuing the story.

If anything I'd rather have it retconned now that he and the others are feeling passion to Dragon Ball again. Not to mention it existing ruins the tension DB Super could have.

Unfortunately it looks like they're not willing to take the risk and retcon it into something better. I just hope Super doesn't end before EoZ and actually fixes it a little by including modern characters like Beerus/Whis being present during that time.

Earth Tournament with joke participants, for a series that now has Multiversal ones, is a really lackluster ending.

[sintzu]

I liked the fact that it ends with only Goku and Vegeta vs Buu, in contrast to the start of the arc where it was Goku vs Vegeta resulting in Buu.

I don't really understand the question. Does anything need to exist ?

It was also the 1st time we saw those 2 fight together.

A better way of putting it would be, should the franchise have continued past a certain point. It didn't need to go beyond the manga but I'm happy that it did. Apart from getting a really good story, it inspired equally good others such as One Piece, Naruto, Bleach and many more which might not have happened had it ended early. The Red cape Naruto has when he fights Pain seems to be a nod to Ssj4 so although GT was the worst recieved out of the original 3 anime, it still might've left a small mark on one of the most successful manga ever written.

Unfortunately it looks like they're not willing to take the risk and retcon it into something better. I just hope Super doesn't end before EoZ.

Toyotarou said Super will lead into it so it's going to stay but I think it'll be heavily changed to take into account the new stories.

[ABED]

I'd argue Z needs to exist given how DB ended, and that even GT has reason for existing given how DBZ ended with only first introducing Uub, who's supposed to be a huge major important character but doesn't show up until the very last chapter. This is also in addition to Pan being just introduced at the EoZ, so there was need to explore these new characters in GT.

Why? DB got closure when Goku finally won the Tenkaichi Budokai. All of the characters had closure.

Uub and Pan didn't need to be explored. You miss the point of that ending. It simply gives an indication of the future and Uub is there to show Goku has now taken on the role of a mentor and has someone to spar.

[Asura]

I'd argue Z needs to exist given how DB ended, and that even GT has reason for existing given how DBZ ended with only first introducing Uub, who's supposed to be a huge major important character but doesn't show up until the very last chapter. This is also in addition to Pan being just introduced at the EoZ, so there was need to explore these new characters in GT.

Why? DB got closure when Goku finally won the Tenkaichi Budokai. All of the characters had closure.

Uub and Pan didn't need to be explored. You miss the point of that ending. It simply gives an indication of the future and Uub is there to show Goku has now taken on the role of a mentor and has someone to spar.

DB didn't get closure when Goku won. Piccolo was still alive and swore that he would settle the score. It's not like they even left off on good terms. Plus you have to account for Goku & Chi-Chi's new future together which would result in a child. They needed to show us what happened after those events. Goku might have won the battle against Piccolo but it was nowhere near over for them.

Uub and Pan did need to be explored. If not Pan, then at least Uub. I did not miss the point of the ending at all. There's a difference between getting the point and actually making that point good. Yes, that's what the ending was supposed to imply, that Goku now has someone to spar with and has taken on the role of mentor, except we, the reader, have zero attachment to this brand new character that gives Goku this new motivation. We know next to nothing about him, and the series ends with Goku promising to train him to eventually become the defender of Earth. Well that's great but aside from being the reincarnation of Buu, who the fuck actually is Uub? He's supposed to be this vital character for the end of the series, and is supposed to be the person Goku will eventually trust as protector of Earth, yet nothing is known about him and he's introduced as fast as the show/manga ends, literally.

[ABED]

That is closure. Goku won soundly. Piccolo made a threat, but the point is that no matter what, Goku will always be there to stop him. He defeated him TWICE and in definitive fashion. Piccolo doesn't need to be dead or turn good for there to be closure. You don't need to account for Goku and Chichi's future. They are together and happy. The audience can fill in the rest. Granted it's not a traditional romance, but it's like at the end of a movie where the guy finally gets the girl. We don't need to see their happy love together. Seeing them finally together is enough. We don't need to see it.

we, the reader, have zero attachment to this brand new character that gives Goku this new motivation

Clearly you do if you think it's about Uub. It's not about him, it's about Goku. We see Goku's excitement and that's the point. No matter what, he's doing what he wants and he's happy. Uub is only vital THEMATICALLY for Goku's journey. The whole Earth's protector is a minor issue as it's not that kind of show.

[Asura]

That is closure. Goku won soundly. Piccolo made a threat, but the point is that no matter what, Goku will always be there to stop him. He defeated him TWICE and in definitive fashion. Piccolo doesn't need to be dead or turn good for there to be closure.

So if no one died in the Saiyan arc and Vegeta gets away, are you saying that's perfect closure for the series? It can just end there since even though Vegeta will be back, Goku will always be there to stop him?

You don't need to account for Goku and Chichi's future. They are together and happy. The audience can fill in the rest. Granted it's not a traditional romance, but it's like at the end of a movie where the guy finally gets the girl. We don't need to see their happy love together. Seeing them finally together is enough. We don't need to see it.

You must be someone who is satisfied quite easily then. It's not like at the end of a movie where the guy finally gets the girl because the Goku & Chi-Chi situation was literally nothing like that at all. We don't need to see their happy love together, we just need to see the obvious implications of what's going to happen which is that they'll have children, and given Goku is incredibly young there's no way his story just ends there. Starting a family is just the beginning for more to come.

Uub is only vital THEMATICALLY for Goku's journey. The whole Earth's protector is a minor issue as it's not that kind of show.

Lol what? A minor issue? Regardless of Goku's motivations almost the entire show has been about protecting Earth. So what do you mean it's not that kind of show? Aside from the Freeza arc which took place on Namek, every single arc has been about protecting the Earth from those who wish to destroy it. So yeah, naming and training someone to be Earth's protector when Goku's gone is kind of a huge deal (hell this was the central theme at the end of the Cell arc and the entire Buu arc). So pinning this gigantic recurring theme onto a character we just met and don't even have time to really even be introduced to him... it's just not that great of an ending. It doesn't matter what it means for Goku it should matter what it means to us, the audience. We're the one's watching the show after all. If this is how the show is going to end then at least tell us a little bit more about this character instead of just saying "Yep this guy is super important, so important that Goku leaves his family behind for him. Too bad you'll never really know anything about him well that's a wrap bye"

[ABED]

So if no one died in the Saiyan arc and Vegeta gets away, are you saying that's perfect closure for the series? It can just end there since even though Vegeta will be back, Goku will always be there to stop him?

No, since Goku didn't soundly defeat him twice and there was a warning of an even bigger threat. Two completely different scenarios.

You must be someone who is satisfied quite easily then. It's not like at the end of a movie where the guy finally gets the girl because the Goku & Chi-Chi situation was literally nothing like that at all. We don't need to see their happy love together, we just need to see the obvious implications of what's going to happen which is that they'll have children, and given Goku is incredibly young there's no way his story just ends there. Starting a family is just the beginning for more to come.

We don't see their happy love because 1) Toriyama isn't great at writing romance nor does he have that much interest and 2) Goku isn't that type of character. We don't need to see anything. We see them flying off together and happy. That's all we need. Goku's story has closure. He's achieved his goal. Yes, there was clearly more you can do after that, but the story doesn't need that for it to be complete. From the Pilaf to the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, there's a beginning, middle, and end. It's a complete arc for Goku.

Regardless of Goku's motivations almost the entire show has been about protecting Earth

That's not true. He's not out to save the world and in fact often puts it in danger for the sake of a fight (e.g. letting Piccolo and Vegeta go and letting Dr. Gero create the cyborgs). This isn't a superhero show.

it should matter what it means to us, the audience

What the story means for the audience is for them to determine. It does matter what it all means for Goku. It's his story. Uub isn't important in and of himself. He's important in what he means for Goku's arc. He's there to shed light on where Goku's going.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I've always been shocked people don't like the Buu arc, it's an extremely rich arc with great character development and storyline, awesome fights and tons of epicness IMO

I never understood all the hate for the Buu arc either. Something tells me it stems from Gotenks but I don't know. Still my favorite arc though.

Because characters are written dumb and stupidly, literally could have ended at any point if chars were logical, faux development and of course just having Goku literally a plot device, I mean literally. Gohan Mr. Smart ass was made to look a right nob when Buu asborbed Gotenks. Like don't let them fight him you idiot but no just stands their with a smirk "oh haha I am Gohan the master of asspulls". .

[Xeogran]

Because characters are written dumb and stupidly, literally could have ended at any point if chars were logical.

>Implying that didn't happen in the Cell saga.

Vegeta's repeated arrogrance, Kuririn's button, Trunks not stopping Cell and instead caring about Vegeta's pride etc. They could have axed the Androids and made Cell unable to transform.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Because characters are written dumb and stupidly, literally could have ended at any point if chars were logical.

>Implying that didn't happen in the Cell saga.

Vegeta's repeated arrogrance, Kuririn's button, Trunks not stopping Cell and instead caring about Vegeta's pride etc. They could have axed the Androids and made Cell unable to transform.

Nope not implying. The Android/Cell definitely the worst with this but since the discussion was about the Buu arc didn't feel the need to mention the Android/Cell arc.

No idea what happened with Toriyama since Namek and Freeza, but the writing quality hit a severe nose dive, at least the Buu arc had the full element to it and wasn't a bore like the Cell arc ended up. I suspect since Freeza he probably was treating the Manga more like work.

[PsionicWarrior]

No idea what happened with Toriyama since Namek and Freeza, but the writing quality hit a severe nose dive

I 100% disagree with this I suggest you watch it again.

[ABED]

I've watched it several times over the years and I agree that it took a tumble.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

No idea what happened with Toriyama since Namek and Freeza, but the writing quality hit a severe nose dive

I 100% disagree with this I suggest you watch it again.

Ignorant. How do you know I haven't recently re-watched/re-read the series? Ever since Freeza arc ended the writing has been paper thin, arcs literally hindered on making characters stupid for the plot to plod along, that's not good writing. And then Toriyama has the cheek to constantly tell the audience "oh btw this should have ended here, here, here and here but characters stupid so enjoy this final battle". You cannot enjoy or get invested because all the Cell and Buu arc could have easily been prevented. So why give a shit?

[ekrolo2]

I wanna chalk up the series post-Namek issues to just escalation problems but I don't think they are, necessarily. Toriyama actually does a fairly decent job of introducing people beyond "the strongest in-universe" who was purportedly Freeza. 19 and 20 being energy goblers gives a good explanation for how they can get more powerful (the series dumps them too early to realize their potential), Cell is a freak show of science who's got everyone's genes in him, Boo's the classical ancient evil coming back for round 2. The only one's who are total, absolute, flat out horse-shit power wise from the original stuff are 17, 18 and 16.

[PsionicWarrior]

I've watched it several times over the years and I agree that it took a tumble.

Everytime I watch it I just experience a big climax that keeps growing until the EoZ. There might be a few things here and there but in the big picture post-Freeza arcs gave more good than bad to the series and by a long shot IMHO

[ABED]

An issue I have is that the series doesn't do a good enough time showing the escalation. It's hard/impossible to really feel the escalation. The only way we know Cell and Buu are more powerful is because characters say so.

[Sexyphobe]

I've always been shocked people don't like the Buu arc, it's an extremely rich arc with great character development and storyline, awesome fights and tons of epicness IMO

I never understood all the hate for the Buu arc either. Something tells me it stems from Gotenks but I don't know. Still my favorite arc though.

I've been rewatching the Buu saga as I never really had many memories of it as a kid... It's terrible, and doesn't seem to know what it wants to do with itself. It doesn't know if it wants to be serious (Final Atonement/Majin Vegeta, planetary/universe genocide, Super Buu) or humorous (Gotenks, Majin Buu, ) so we get this half-baked narrative that I just can't take seriously, or at the very least suspend my disbelief. Not to mention poorly-done stories like Majin Vegeta and Mystic Gohan.

I think the biggest problem is the scaling of everything. Each episode wants to top itself with "ZOMG BUU IS SO POWERFUL" or "ZOMG GOHAN/GOTENKS IS SO POWERFUL". And with Buu himself, I just don't "get" him, and how he's able to keep getting back up after being blown to smithereens by Vegeta and later Gotenks. How am I supposed to take the conflict seriosuly when you start it off with a huge explosion (Final Atonement) then from then on have the antagonist essentially walk it off?

Honestly I wish the entire arc was just the tournament, a slice of life about a gang of friends getting together to do what they love.