Does Vegeta recognizing Goku as #1 intrinsically mean Vegeta giving up on trying to surpass him, period?

[Timetraveller]

GT Vegeta was far from prideless. He got over his unhealthy obsession with Goku. You would never see GT Vegeta wearing an apron and asskissing anyone like he did with Whis and Beerus. If Vegeta spends an eternity obsessing over Goku, then that makes for bad entertainment as it gets repetitive. We've already seen the I'll defeat Goku schtick for close to 300 episodes in DBZ. ToP arc Vegeta is a step in the right direction. Less Kakarot and they showed us that Vegeta cares about other things in life similar to GT Vegeta

Yeah, but ToP Vegeta has power to back that up - his new transformation is at least as strong as KKx20 Kaioken, plus it doesn't wear his body out. Barring UI, which is unpredictable, unstable and difficult to fall into, Vegeta is actually better than Goku right now as far as consistent performance is concerned. This didn't work in GT because Vegeta there was laughably weak.

The power to back what up? What's power got to do with overcoming his mental obsession with Goku?

GT Vegeta wasn't weak. lmao. He's at least as strong as Goku who in base is as strong as Majin Buu. Baby in Vegeta's body toyed with SS3 Goku like he was nothing. The only thing Goku had on Vegeta was SS4 but even that he achieved later on. Goku's always a step ahead even in Super. Goku got SSG before him. When Vegeta got SSB, Goku already had SSBKK. Vegeta's still stuck on Blue but Goku's achieved Ultra Instinct.

[bleed0range]

I have never seen it as giving up. Vegeta had, until that point, never admitted to himself that Goku was better. For better or worse this is him admitting Goku is better even if he is a low class warrior and he is a prince. It’s a sign of respect.

No real saiyan would give up trying to become stronger!

[oozaru goku]

The #1 speech doesn't literally mean he gives up on chasing goku because he also said that goku's strong because goku fought for the sake of others, not for fun or killing enemies like he had done all along (Which dbs goku has NEVER done lmfao). Vegeta understands that and admits that goku was #1 THAT TIME and you see then he cares more about his family and friends.

but well, I feel sorry for dbs vegeta, he was made to be such a prideless guy. His pride speech is just a lame hypocrisy, look at the situation now, he and many innocent people have been forced to (indirectly) killed each other for the stupid god enjoyment. He doesn't like it and gets angry but wtf he points his anger at the wrong person, to toppo and jiren who are also victims as himself. Also they're NOT even the people who kicked kabba out of the ring. Vegeta nowadays (actually after beerus came) is just a slave of the gods who doesn't even have a chance or a gut to get angry at them when they do something bad or unfairly to him or people he cares about.

[JazzMazz]

The #1 speech doesn't literally mean he gives up on chasing goku because he also said that goku's strong because goku fought for the sake of others, not for fun or killing enemies like he had done all along (Which dbs goku has NEVER done lmfao). Vegeta understands that and admits that goku was #1 THAT TIME and you see then he cares more about his family and friends.

but well, I feel sorry for dbs vegeta, he was made to be such a prideless guy. His pride speech is just a lame hypocrisy, look at the situation now, he and many innocent people have been forced to (indirectly) killed each other for the stupid god enjoyment. He doesn't like it and gets angry but wtf he points his anger at the wrong person, to toppo and jiren who are also victims as himself. Also they're NOT even the people who kicked kabba out of the ring. Vegeta nowadays (actually after beerus came) is just a slave of the gods who doesn't even have a chance or a gut to get angry at them when they do something bad or unfairly to him or people he cares about.

The thing is though, he doesn't say Goku gains his strength from fighting for his friends and family, because he also notes that he also has loved ones whom he fights for, Vegeta says Goku is better than him because he fights, not so he could win, but simply in order to better himself.

[Cipher]

Not at all.

The weight of that moment in the Boo arc isn't Vegeta giving up his drive to surpass Goku. The weight is that, for the first time, he's comfortable admitting someone out there is better than he is—just as Goku has always done, and always been thrilled by—and that being thrilled rather than threatened by challenge is part of what's always allowed Goku to have the edge.

It's not a signal that Vegeta's going to give up his aspirations as a rival any more than Goku gives up his. It's just that he's resolving to view challenge with the same enthusiasm for self-improvement Goku does, and to stop staking every ounce of his self-worth on being better than others.

[TBMx]

Realistically, no. Thematically, yes. It was the end of the series, and the next arc has Vegeta fully 'settled down' with the focus on Goku and Uub. Having the final rival to Goku acknowledge Goku is superior to them and thus ending his arc of constantly striving and failing to surpass him feels like the natural endpoint for the story. In-context, that's why it's odd for me to see one of the last big character moments he has in the manga any other way.

I don't agree about thematically. The entire point was that bloodline and birthright and what "class" you are, aka inborn gifts, do not inherently make you better, and that the underdog can be the best through attitude and hard work. But during the buu saga, likely way after Toriyama stopped caring about theme, he has Vegeta believe that Goku is inherently better and more talented. This isn't a shift in Vegeta's beliefs. He's just changing the target of who is inherently superior in his mind from himself to Goku. That's not growth, but a simple inversion. Vegeta going from thinking he's entitled to be the best, to thinking anybody can be the best regardless of lineage or genius, would be growth.

Vegeta's idea of elite saiyans being inherently better, doesn't become any more wholesome or palatable when the "elite saiyan" turns out to be Goku and the lower class one Vegeta. It's still a marginalization of the human or saiyan spirit in the face of genetic superiority.

TLDR: The audience is left with this impression, if Vegeta is right about being inherently superior:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YgGnfBNAqg

The audience is left with the exact same impression, if Vegeta is right about Goku being inherently superior.

And is that really supposed to be Goku's theme and message?

GT Vegeta wasn't weak. lmao.

Yes he was:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpRHH63qWaM

[Timetraveller]

GT Vegeta wasn't weak. lmao.

Yes he was:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpRHH63qWaM

I'd chalk that up to a power scaling inconsistency.I.e. the animators just drawing up a scenario that looked cool. Baby Vegeta was still slapping around Majuub and SS3 Goku like they were nothing.

Another example of a power scaling inconsistency that Super is full of. Goku is seen fighting one on one with someone that Roshi defeats later on in the Tournament of power. Does that mean Roshi>Goku?

[TBMx]

GT Vegeta wasn't weak. lmao.

Yes he was:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpRHH63qWaM

I'd chalk that up to a power scaling inconsistency.I.e. the animators just drawing up a scenario that looked cool. Baby Vegeta was still slapping around Majuub and SS3 Goku like they were nothing.

Baby increases the powerlevel of his host. Which is why Gohan struggled with Baby Goten, why, Super Saiyan Baby Vegeta was able to dominate SS3 Goku, whereas Super Saiyan Goku was clearly superior to Super Saiyan Vegeta in the Super 17 arc and in every other instance. To put it into perspective, Super Saiyan Vegeta was "made to look like a helpless child" against Super 17, whereas Super Saiyan Goku punched him across half the world.

https://img.fireden.net/a/image/1472/49 ... 613366.gif

https://pa1.narvii.com/6167/2ec762649c2 ... 1f5_hq.gif

https://media1.tenor.com/images/31da77d ... id=5367036

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/or ... -tumbl.gif

https://giant.gfycat.com/DeadIncompatibleFishingcat.gif

https://media.animediscover.com/static/ ... uwabrf.jpg

He was extremely weak and did nothing but job throughout GT.

[MozillaVulpix]

I don't agree about thematically. The entire point was that bloodline and birthright and what "class" you are, aka inborn gifts, do not inherently make you better, and that the underdog can be the best through attitude and hard work. But during the buu saga, likely way after Toriyama stopped caring about theme, he has Vegeta believe that Goku is inherently better and more talented. This isn't a shift in Vegeta's beliefs. He's just changing the target of who is inherently superior in his mind from himself to Goku. That's not growth, but a simple inversion. Vegeta going from thinking he's entitled to be the best, to thinking anybody can be the best regardless of lineage or genius, would be growth.

Vegeta's idea of elite saiyans being inherently better, doesn't become any more wholesome or palatable when the "elite saiyan" turns out to be Goku and the lower class one Vegeta. It's still a marginalization of the human or saiyan spirit in the face of genetic superiority.

It's got nothing to do with genetics. Goku just has a different attitude to life that makes him better at what he does. And Vegeta could always try to be more like Goku to see if that could make him stronger, but he doesn't, because he still takes pride in what he is. That's why he concedes Number 1 to Goku in the first place. And you still needed to have resolution to the idea that a low-class warrior surpassed Vegeta by explaining that that particular worldview was wrong.

[Lionel]

Goku's attitude has unquestionably helped him to push himself to succeed but it can't be denied that his genetics have helped give him the tools needed to grow so strong. Remember that gem of a conversation Vegeta was having with Black about Goku being the only one who can use those "Saiyan cells" of his to the fullest as the guy was getting pummeled? Yeah, I don't feel the whole "rags to riches" ideal fits Goku all too snugly these days since he started taking advantage of automatic power ups just from surviving near-death and an endless supply of species exclusive transformations. I would prefer to ascribe that description to Tenshinhan or Krillin instead of Goku since they don't have the same kind of advantages that Goku's species classification gives him -- about the most Tenshinhan can lay claim to from his ancestry is a third eye and having the ability to sprout some extra limbs which he never even uses.

[Timetraveller]

Yes he was:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpRHH63qWaM

I'd chalk that up to a power scaling inconsistency.I.e. the animators just drawing up a scenario that looked cool. Baby Vegeta was still slapping around Majuub and SS3 Goku like they were nothing.

Baby increases the powerlevel of his host. Which is why Gohan struggled with Baby Goten, why, Super Saiyan Baby Vegeta was able to dominate SS3 Goku, whereas Super Saiyan Goku was clearly superior to Super Saiyan Vegeta in the Super 17 arc and in every other instance. To put it into perspective, Super Saiyan Vegeta was "made to look like a helpless child" against Super 17, whereas Super Saiyan Goku punched him across half the world.

https://img.fireden.net/a/image/1472/49 ... 613366.gif

https://pa1.narvii.com/6167/2ec762649c2 ... 1f5_hq.gif

https://media1.tenor.com/images/31da77d ... id=5367036

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/or ... -tumbl.gif

https://giant.gfycat.com/DeadIncompatibleFishingcat.gif

https://media.animediscover.com/static/ ... uwabrf.jpg

He was extremely weak and did nothing but job throughout GT.

Anyone who achieves super saiyan 4 can't be extremely weak. Goku couldn't defeat someone that Roshi managed to defeat. SSB which is meant to be stronger than SS4 has jobbed almost every fight he's been involved in. He also struggled against Krillin and 17. Power level inconsistency. And I'm not saying Vegeta is on Goku's level. Even if he was weaker than Goku that doesn't diminish his character development at all. He's a family man now whereas Goku disappeared for years to train some random kid. Vegeta wouldn't do that in GT. He has a family now so his priorities changed