With the return of Dragon Ball with new series SUPER, there's been some divisive critiques of certain characters being Out of Character, one of them being Vegeta. The main argument being (paraphrasing):
General Argument wrote:Vegeta's character came full circle in Majin Bu Arc when he admited Goku was the #1, finally getting over his "I've to surpass Kakarot, I have to be the strongest" goals
QUESTION: If you admite someone is better than you, do you give up entirely trying to be better than them? Is there a contradiction?
MY TAKE
Admitting someone is better than you is just a formality to show respect, not to give up. As a martial artist myself, there are a lot of practioners that I recognize better than myself that has never stopped me from striving to surpass and do better than them. As an analogy, in a competitive market you could recognize your competition having a better finatial performance as well having a bigger share of the market than yours, that doesn't mean you stop trying to look for alternative to get more income as well as take part of the market share they have.
Vegeta is not out of character for wanting to surpass Goku even after of recognizing him as the number #1.
Dragon Ball was always a kid series and fans should stop being in denial.
I see it as him giving up on chasing Goku completely. He came to terms that Goku is and probably always will be ahead of him. Near the end of GT, for all the crap it gets, had a scene where Vegeta said he only trains now to pass his limits. He completely gave up on chasing Goku and only trains for himself. Super basically said, “nah eff that, Vegeta still has a rivalry with Goku and wants to constantly surpass him.” He basically threw away his “Number 1 speech” and not only wants to beat Goku, he wants to be the best in the Universe. I don’t see it as a big deal, but it seems to be much more of a regression than progression for Vegeta’s character.
MajinMan wrote:I see it as him giving up on chasing Goku completely. He came to terms that Goku is and probably always will be ahead of him. Near the end of GT, for all the crap it gets, had a scene where Vegeta said he only trains now to pass his limits. He completely gave up on chasing Goku and only trains for himself. Super basically said, “nah eff that, Vegeta still has a rivalry with Goku and wants to constantly surpass him.” He basically threw away his “Number 1 speech” and not only wants to beat Goku, he wants to be the best in the Universe. I don’t see it as a big deal, but it seems to be much more of a regression than progression for Vegeta’s character.
But didn't Toriyama kind of already fodderize a lot of the meaning in that speech in literally the same chapter? The speech doesn't exist in a vacuum, interactions and events happened directly after that do kind of diminish the speeches original meaning.
For example, this little interaction, where Vegeta learns Goku who he believes is pretty much unbeatable at this point, actually needs to charge up to beat majin Buu, something that leaves completely dumbfounded and kind of breaks Vegeta's idea of Goku being the unbeatable, something I think is further demonstrated, when fails to power-up.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Vegeta's reaction kind of says it all.
MajinMan wrote:I see it as him giving up on chasing Goku completely. He came to terms that Goku is and probably always will be ahead of him. Near the end of GT, for all the crap it gets, had a scene where Vegeta said he only trains now to pass his limits. He completely gave up on chasing Goku and only trains for himself. Super basically said, “nah eff that, Vegeta still has a rivalry with Goku and wants to constantly surpass him.” He basically threw away his “Number 1 speech” and not only wants to beat Goku, he wants to be the best in the Universe. I don’t see it as a big deal, but it seems to be much more of a regression than progression for Vegeta’s character.
But didn't Toriyama kind of already fodderize a lot of the meaning in that speech in literally the same chapter? The speech doesn't exist in a vacuum, interactions and events happened directly after that do kind of diminish the speeches original meaning.
For example, this little interaction, where Vegeta learns Goku who he believes is pretty much unbeatable at this point, actually needs to charge up to beat majin Buu, something that leaves completely dumbfounded and kind of breaks Vegeta's idea of Goku being the unbeatable, something I think is further demonstrated, when fails to power-up.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Vegeta's reaction kind of says it all.
I don’t see how that diminishes anything. He’s just shocked that he needs to charge up his ki for a minute, and that he probably has to suffer for a minute while he charges up. The whole point with Vegeta’s speech was that Goku was always a step ahead of him, and if he reaches Goku’s current level, Goku will have already moved on to the next step. He came to terms that Goku is just something else.
MajinMan wrote:I see it as him giving up on chasing Goku completely. He came to terms that Goku is and probably always will be ahead of him. Near the end of GT, for all the crap it gets, had a scene where Vegeta said he only trains now to pass his limits. He completely gave up on chasing Goku and only trains for himself. Super basically said, “nah eff that, Vegeta still has a rivalry with Goku and wants to constantly surpass him.” He basically threw away his “Number 1 speech” and not only wants to beat Goku, he wants to be the best in the Universe. I don’t see it as a big deal, but it seems to be much more of a regression than progression for Vegeta’s character.
But didn't Toriyama kind of already fodderize a lot of the meaning in that speech in literally the same chapter? The speech doesn't exist in a vacuum, interactions and events happened directly after that do kind of diminish the speeches original meaning.
For example, this little interaction, where Vegeta learns Goku who he believes is pretty much unbeatable at this point, actually needs to charge up to beat majin Buu, something that leaves completely dumbfounded and kind of breaks Vegeta's idea of Goku being the unbeatable, something I think is further demonstrated, when fails to power-up.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Vegeta's reaction kind of says it all.
I don’t see how that diminishes anything. He’s just shocked that he needs to charge up his ki for a minute, and that he probably has to suffer for a minute while he charges up. The whole point with Vegeta’s speech was that Goku was always a step ahead of him, and if he reaches Goku’s current level, Goku will have already moved on to the next step. He came to terms that Goku is just something else.
I'm more suggesting it equalizes the two characters footing with one another. Also, do you think Vegeta would have made that speech, if he knew Goku was pretty much done fighting? To me, it seems a little far-fetched to think Vegeta would have sung the praises of a Goku on his last legs. I will say though, the scene does indeed have Vegeta get over his hatred for Goku and also show to appreciate his talents as a fighter, however, I don't think the "you will always be number one" should be taken at face value, for the exact same reasons "I'll never fight again" shouldn't be. Namely because of the aftermath.
Vegeta was literally dead when he made that speech. He was set for Hell, not heaven, and wouldn't have the possibility to train with Kais and stuff to continue to increase his strength. So of course Goku was going to stay #1.
However during the Kid Buu fight Vegeta was resurrected (and was confirmed to be a good guy) so his whole speech was made obsolete since he now can live and train once more to try and surpass Goku.
1) Vegeta did admit that, for the time being only. That put him at ease for th remainder of the fight and eased collaboration. It's only the FUNi dub's wording that suggests Vegeta means overall, while the original Japanese dub implies he's talking more about the current situation.
2) The revised ending of the manga, as posted above
3) In Super Vegeta's behavior is only the logical extension of point 2. He says "Kakarot. I've accepted the fact that you're the strongest Saiyan. But even so, Kakarot, I have no interest in being the second best! One day I will surpass you! No... I will surpass everyone in this universe! I will be above all!" - now some would argue that this very line is OOC, but it's not like we didn't get foreshadowing from the altered last manga page, now didn't we?
No, Vegeta is not OOC. The only people who'd rather that he "knew his place" are those who don't really like him, I think.
Vegeta points out what he said at the start of Super and says it didn't mean he'll just sit back and watch him surpass him. The point of Vegeta's speach wasn't just admiting that Goku was #1 but seeing where he went wrong and improving himself as a character and warrior, resulting in him being able to take down the likes of Toppo, Black & Golden Freeza, something he'd never be able to do back in the day.
Assuming we reach EOZ in Super's last episode, Goku will still be #1 but Vegeta will be a far better person and warrior than he was when he made that speach.
Last edited by sintzu on Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
If we want to be technical then Vegeta already surpassed Goku twice during the Cell arc. How much more does he want? He's never going to be able to maintain a permanent advantage over his rival. Toriyama won't allow that. Vegeta should savour those fleeting moments of blissful greatness as the strongest while they're still there. We Piccolo fans certainly appreciated it at first when he had fused with other Namekians. Poor Tenshinhan never got anything like that. Once Goku had passed him up that was it. No fusions, zenkais or transformations to try and give him the "boost" that he needed. Although maybe if the gap hadn't been so big and he had his potential unlocked by the Grand Elder...
The best Vegeta can hope for now, it seems, is being equal with Goku.
Lionel wrote:Vegeta already surpassed Goku twice during the Cell arc. How much more does he want?
The best Vegeta can hope for now, it seems, is being equal with Goku.
He wants to be better which is normal in any rivalry but unlike before, it's a friendly one where he looks at Goku as a friend who pushes him forward, not an enemy he needs to kill.
They're both full blooded Saiyans and train under the same teacher so if he doesn't get UI within the next few episodes then he most likely will when Super returns. It's going to be really interesting to see what they come up with to top it though.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
Lionel wrote:Vegeta already surpassed Goku twice during the Cell arc. How much more does he want?
The best Vegeta can hope for now, it seems, is being equal with Goku.
He wants to be better which is normal in any rivalry but unlike before, it's a friendly one where he looks at Goku as a friend who pushes him forward, not an enemy he needs to kill.
They're both full blooded Saiyans and train under the same teacher so if he doesn't get UI within the next few episodes then he most likely will when Super returns. It's going to be really interesting to see what they come up with to top it though.
Vegeta not getting Ultra Instinct would be like Piccolo and the earthlings not learning the Kaioken from King Kai despite having undergone his training. It doesn't appear to make sense from an initial point of view and it only hampers the progress of the fighter. Could Vegeta be like that or is that previous build up going to pay off?
Lionel wrote:Vegeta not getting Ultra Instinct would be like Piccolo and the earthlings not learning the Kaioken from King Kai despite having undergone his training.
It doesn't appear to make sense from an initial point of view and it only hampers the progress of the fighter. Could Vegeta be like that or is that previous build up going to pay off?
They weren't with him long enoug to learn the Kaioken.
Goku just discovered it and can't even use it at will while Vegeta just got an updated Blue form so it's not really fair to expect him to get it this soon. He'll most likely get it in the first arc Super gets when it's back or in the new movie.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
MajinMan wrote:I see it as him giving up on chasing Goku completely. He came to terms that Goku is and probably always will be ahead of him. Near the end of GT, for all the crap it gets, had a scene where Vegeta said he only trains now to pass his limits. He completely gave up on chasing Goku and only trains for himself. Super basically said, “nah eff that, Vegeta still has a rivalry with Goku and wants to constantly surpass him.” He basically threw away his “Number 1 speech” and not only wants to beat Goku, he wants to be the best in the Universe. I don’t see it as a big deal, but it seems to be much more of a regression than progression for Vegeta’s character.
Here is the problem: He didn't. GT was a 10 year time skip and what did he achieve in that time? Not to mention, He refused to go to space. He refused to fight the shadow dragons except Omega and he was made a huge rookie mistake against Super 17.
He definitely has regressed in terms of that but if he keeps him in the plot, is that a bad thing?
Lionel wrote:Vegeta not getting Ultra Instinct would be like Piccolo and the earthlings not learning the Kaioken from King Kai despite having undergone his training.
It doesn't appear to make sense from an initial point of view and it only hampers the progress of the fighter. Could Vegeta be like that or is that previous build up going to pay off?
They weren't with him long enoug to learn the Kaioken.
Goku just discovered it and can't even use it at will while Vegeta just got an updated Blue form so it's not really fair to expect him to get it this soon. He'll most likely get it in the first arc Super gets when it's back or in the new movie.
Really? If I'm not mistaken Goku was there for 158 days. Tenshinhan and Chaozu remained for 266 days while Yamcha was there for 136. You're telling me that's not enough time to grasp the Kaioken?
Oh, well I suppose that's good for Vegeta. I do have to wonder if he'll be adopting the same aesthetic as Goku since the Spirit Bomb was originally supposed to be what gave him his power source in the first place. Maybe he could combine his new blue form with Ultra Instinct -- a good amount more power while retaining that strange new shiny form of his.
Lionel wrote:Really? If I'm not mistaken Goku was there for 158 days. Tenshinhan and Chaozu remained for 266 days while Yamcha was there for 136. You're telling me that's not enough time to grasp the Kaioken?
They may have been there longer (I don't think they were) but they didn't seem to be doing much training in the few scenes we saw them in and no one said anything about them doing so when they came back.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
Lionel wrote:Really? If I'm not mistaken Goku was there for 158 days. Tenshinhan and Chaozu remained for 266 days while Yamcha was there for 136. You're telling me that's not enough time to grasp the Kaioken?
They may have been there longer (I don't think they were) but they didn't seem to be doing much training in the few scenes we saw them in and no one said anything about them doing so when they came back.
To be fair, there was a crisis going on in the scenes that we were privy to on King Kai's. Probably behind the scenes and for at least one manga chapter cover they did train. Sadly, it's likely that Toriyama had already settled on shifting gears over to Vegeta and Trunks once Freeza arrived on Earth; their power wasn't going to matter in much the same way Chaozu had, more or less, no role in the 23rd tournament despite having mastered Karin's training (as a result, no Kaioken).
I think some fans take Vegeta's "Goku is Number 1" speech a bit too literally. There isn't enough context in the original story to suggest that after he admitted that Goku was "number 1", he just resided to that fact and stopped training because he's fine with status quo of being forever second banana to Goku. Vegeta just knew that moment that Goku was his superior but that doesn't equate to Vegeta residing to never wanting to improve himself. That is further emphasised with the Kanzenban ending of the final chapter in the manga where Vegeta states that he still wants to defeat Goku, and by that virtue, he wants to become as strong, if not, stronger than Goku. That desire of wanting to improve himself is still there. Hell, in the second of Super, Vegeta acknowledged that Goku was the strongest Saiyan, but stated that wouldn't mean he would stop to pushing himself to become stronger.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
MajinMan wrote:I see it as him giving up on chasing Goku completely. He came to terms that Goku is and probably always will be ahead of him. Near the end of GT, for all the crap it gets, had a scene where Vegeta said he only trains now to pass his limits. He completely gave up on chasing Goku and only trains for himself. Super basically said, “nah eff that, Vegeta still has a rivalry with Goku and wants to constantly surpass him.” He basically threw away his “Number 1 speech” and not only wants to beat Goku, he wants to be the best in the Universe. I don’t see it as a big deal, but it seems to be much more of a regression than progression for Vegeta’s character.
Here is the problem: He didn't. GT was a 10 year time skip and what did he achieve in that time? Not to mention, He refused to go to space. He refused to fight the shadow dragons except Omega and he was made a huge rookie mistake against Super 17.
He definitely has regressed in terms of that but if he keeps him in the plot, is that a bad thing?
I mean, I’m not going to power scale him in GT and compare how strong he was to his past self, but my point still stands. And about Super, I did say “I don’t see it as a big deal,” so I mostly don’t care that he continued to chase Goku and tries to surpass him. It was somewhat necessary to do if they wanted him to have a big role in the show.
I'm pretty sure that at the time that Vegeta said that speech, he didn't think he was going to get any much stronger afterwards. This of course changes once he is revived and then later when the fight with Beerus happens. Once Goku achieved god power, Vegeta was able to find a new training method that would place him on the level or beyond that of Goku's. It also must be considered how extreme and difficult of a task achieving SSJ3 is as well which makes it perfectly plausible for Vegeta to admit that Goku was just better until he found that he could be trained by Whis.
[/spoiler]
