Is the criticism against everyone getting the Super Saiyan form a legitimate one?

[Omniboy]

I have spoken about this before, but honestly there being multiple saiyans able to turn super saiyan (including Goten and kid trunks) does not bother me. Goku and Vegeta have undergone training that has put them in a level above saiyans before their time, and Gohan, Trunks, and Goten are baciscally genetic mutants that have the perfect genes in order to access it at a young age. Gohan at 9, Trunks at 7, and Goten at 6. Although it seems like Gohan had to do some training get to his state while Goten and Trunks did not; Future trunks included, considering that as opposed to the anime special where it was harder for him to transform, in Toriyma's manga, Trunks is seen training with Gohan as a super saiyan already , so it seems likely that he may have achieved at the same age (although this may just be headcannon, considering that we never actually see him do it.) Not to mention that these are only just these few out of the hypothetical millions-billions saiyans that have come before them to achieve this state. So it still is a rare thing if only a few have it.

My problem with it is due to the amount, but not because of it not feeling special, but because of over saturation of the form. We now have: SSJ, SSJ2, LSSJ, SSJ3, SSJ4, SSJG, SSJGSS, SSJI, SSR, SSB, SSB2, and SSJGSSE That is a total of 12, not counting ASSJ, USSJ, MSSJ, RSSJ and MSSGSS which are really just different grades of SSJ and SSGSS. That's not to say that I don't enjoy them. I really like Broly's legendary state( even his restrained one) and Goku Black's Rose' form. But that still is a hell of a lot though.

[blain218]

But it's not illogical in universe for even the Saiyans to have limits.

They were in-universe to have infinite potential, therefore no absolute or permanent limits so the writers can't back out on that now. Hell, even Kid Goku was written this way I'm Early DB.

[DBZAOTA482]

Yes, it kills the prerequisite value when anyone with Saiyan blood can achieve it.

I mean it went from being a transformation only obtainable through pure rage to "tingly back".

[blain218]

Yes, it kills the prerequisite value when anyone with Saiyan blood can achieve it.

I mean it went from being a transformation only obtainable through pure rage to "tingly back".

You can make the same argument about any ability ever in the series. Remember when knowing how to fly was a big deal in DB? It took Goku 3 years to learn how to do it, yet Videl (a regular human) does it in one week.

People shouldn't be mad when an outdated ability gets mastered so quickly. SSJ1 hasn't been relevant since the Cells Games, so I wasn't pissed at Goten, Trunks and Caulifla getting it so easily.

[ABED]

But it's not illogical in universe for even the Saiyans to have limits.

They were in-universe to have infinite potential, therefore no absolute or permanent limits so the writers can't back out on that now. Hell, even Kid Goku was written this way I'm Early DB.

When was it said they have infinite potential? There's nothing to back out because it's not set in stone. It's a hyperbolic statement, not a literal one.

Remember when knowing how to fly was a big deal in DB? It took Goku 3 years to learn how to do it, yet Videl (a regular human) does it in one week.

To be fair, it didn't seem like it was a pressing issue for Goku and from what we saw, it's not that it took him 3 years to learn how, he learned it somewhere during that three year period. Besides, flying can't be a more complex technique than the Kamehameha, and that took him 1 minute to figure out.

[blain218]

But it's not illogical in universe for even the Saiyans to have limits.

They were in-universe to have infinite potential, therefore no absolute or permanent limits so the writers can't back out on that now. Hell, even Kid Goku was written this way I'm Early DB.

When was it said they have infinite potential? There's nothing to back out because it's not set in stone. It's a hyperbolic statement, not a literal one.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-9 ... 69a1331467

Having no limits (which is stated multiple times in the series about saiyans) is literally the same thing as having infinite potential. We've seen Goku and the others constantly get stronger and stronger overtime via all sorts of ways with no end in sight.

[ABED]

It is a hyperbolic statement. And yes, we've seen them get stronger, but that just means they haven't yet reached their limits. It's not a betrayal of some core DB tenant. Of course Vegeta would say that, it feeds his ego.

Limitations make for good writing.

[blain218]

It is a hyperbolic statement. And yes, we've seen them get stronger, but that just means they haven't yet reached their limits. It's not a betrayal of some core DB tenant. Of course Vegeta would say that, it feeds his ego.

Limitations make for good writing.

Its not hyperbole if its said over and over again be different people, even the narrator.

[ABED]

It is a hyperbolic statement. And yes, we've seen them get stronger, but that just means they haven't yet reached their limits. It's not a betrayal of some core DB tenant. Of course Vegeta would say that, it feeds his ego.

Limitations make for good writing.

Its not hyperbole if its said over and over again be different people, even the narrator.

Says who? It was something said by a few villains and a hype man. It's a statement made in numerous works and it's hyperbolic. There are always limits. It just another way of saying "You're really good and will get better. How much better, we don't know." Giving them a natural wall would not break any tenant of DB.

[blain218]

It is a hyperbolic statement. And yes, we've seen them get stronger, but that just means they haven't yet reached their limits. It's not a betrayal of some core DB tenant. Of course Vegeta would say that, it feeds his ego.

Limitations make for good writing.

Its not hyperbole if its said over and over again be different people, even the narrator.

Says who? It was something said by a few villains and a hype man. It's a statement made in numerous works and it's hyperbolic. There are always limits. It just another way of saying "You're really good and will get better. How much better, we don't know." Giving them a natural wall would not break any tenant of DB.

If multiple different characters, the narrator, the guide books, Toriyama (especially) and even the tag line for the 2018 movie says "sayians have no limits" then it is pretty much an official tenant. There isn't anything that contradicts it, particularly for the Saiyans and characters like Cell, Buu, 17, 18 and 21. Besides, isn't self-improvement an overriding theme in the franchise? Having characters with infinite potential fits right in to the point.

[ABED]

Its not hyperbole if its said over and over again be different people, even the narrator.

Says who? It was something said by a few villains and a hype man. It's a statement made in numerous works and it's hyperbolic. There are always limits. It just another way of saying "You're really good and will get better. How much better, we don't know." Giving them a natural wall would not break any tenant of DB.

If multiple different characters, the narrator, the guide books, Toriyama (especially) and even the tag line for the 2018 movie says "sayians have no limits" then it is pretty much an official tenant. There isn't anything that contradicts it, particularly for the Saiyans and characters like Cell, Buu, 17, 18 and 21. Besides, isn't self-improvement an overriding theme in the franchise? Having characters with infinite potential fits right in to the point.

The fact that multiple characters say it doesn't make it not hyperbole. All the examples you gave are just characters that got stronger. Just because they haven't yet hit a wall doesn't mean they can't. Self improvement doesn't just mean getting stronger and stronger. One of the best things about Ultra instinct is the idea that it's a fighting technique not a power up. Unfortunately it was made to be a transformation with confuses the issue.

Again, and this can't be stressed enough, limits and constraints make for good writing.

[blain218]

Says who? It was something said by a few villains and a hype man. It's a statement made in numerous works and it's hyperbolic. There are always limits. It just another way of saying "You're really good and will get better. How much better, we don't know." Giving them a natural wall would not break any tenant of DB.

If multiple different characters, the narrator, the guide books, Toriyama (especially) and even the tag line for the 2018 movie says "sayians have no limits" then it is pretty much an official tenant. There isn't anything that contradicts it, particularly for the Saiyans and characters like Cell, Buu, 17, 18 and 21. Besides, isn't self-improvement an overriding theme in the franchise? Having characters with infinite potential fits right in to the point.

The fact that multiple characters say it doesn't make it not hyperbole. All the examples you gave are just characters that got stronger. Just because they haven't yet hit a wall doesn't mean they can't. Self improvement doesn't just mean getting stronger and stronger. One of the best things about Ultra instinct is the idea that it's a fighting technique not a power up. Unfortunately it was made to be a transformation with confuses the issue.

Again, and this can't be stressed enough, limits and constraints make for good writing.

Bro, if even the narrator himself, the numerous guides book and other out-universe sources themselves say that they have infinite potential, then it is undeniably true. They're obviously being literal if all these multiple sources say the same thing. Everytime someone says Goku can't possibly do something he ends up doing it. So its obvious from day one where they are going with these characters. Plus, you gave no example of how giving them permanent power limits would make for better writing.

[DBZAOTA482]

Yes, it kills the prerequisite value when anyone with Saiyan blood can achieve it.

I mean it went from being a transformation only obtainable through pure rage to "tingly back".

You can make the same argument about any ability ever in the series. Remember when knowing how to fly was a big deal in DB? It took Goku 3 years to learn how to do it, yet Videl (a regular human) does it in one week.

People shouldn't be mad when an outdated ability gets mastered so quickly. SSJ1 hasn't been relevant since the Cells Games, so I wasn't pissed at Goten, Trunks and Caulifla getting it so easily.

Like ABED said, it didn't take Goku 3 years to learn bukujutsu plus it was self-taught. Even then, Videl learning it was still shown as a feat.

[Banana]

One idea that makes a whole lot of sense that I didn't really see touched upon in this topic, regarding the idea of the "ssj bargain sale" lol was that the environment was a hell of a lot different for each saiyan character that we see well simply because life goes on... but the other side of that is that we do see the enemies get stronger over time. If we think about it, Frieza was weak compared to Cell or Majin Buu and there isn't even a comparison to the super characters (which I'll get to watching soon). SSJ levels are foundationally stronger than the rest which is also quite obvious even in namesake through 2, 3, etc.

I'm watching the Majin Buu arc again now and Popo said something interesting- that Trunks and Goten have more power than Goku did as a kid. True that the mixed species genetics have a huge part, but where I'm going with this is that not only the enemies, but everyone is on a different level. Trunks trains with his daddy and is able to go SSJ in high gravity which stuck out to me. At the time of the Namek saga, gravity was just being introduced as a concept in the space shuttles. I firmly believe that the kids were able to go SSJ easier because Trunks and Goten were training with higher caliber resources as well as the z-fighter family who were all significantly stronger at that point because of all their past experiences and struggles.

To me, it makes perfect sense that Goten and Trunks went SSJ, plus it feels like a necessary stepping stone for Gotenks.

And even in the alternate timeline where Future Trunks came from, he goes SSJ because he's pissed at the Androids for killing Gohan and he knows it's up to him to save the world.

SSJ may have been legendary back in the days of Planet Vegeta before it was destroyed in addition as many of the saiyans had stayed behind on their planet. It was basically the children and other select few who were sent out to other planets and even so, their brainwashing to kill didn't lend itself to the idea of constant training and journeying. Part of what makes Goku so special is that because he hit his head and his nature changed, he became such a kind spirited kid, (and the brain damage, and the brain damage, and the brain damage lol) and because he Was no longer essentially being brainwashed and he knew the kindness and love of Grandpa Gohan, that journeying and training for survival just became natural for him. He didn't know anything, and in a sense, he was more of a Saiyan than the other Saiyans were. With Grandpa Gohan gone, there was absolutely nothing holding Goku back. Bulma's capsule vehicles and more importantly the Kinto'un further cemented in his mind getting out and going places, and that's obviously where it all began. These basic things opened up a brand new world of strength to Goku, allowing him to surpass his limits and eventually go SSJ when the other saiyans never had these experiences. The others who did travel to other planets were more concerned about making dough off real estate than fighting. It's not all about internal strength, but external stimuli as well.

[ABED]

Bro, if even the narrator himself, the numerous guides book and other out-universe sources themselves say that they have infinite potential, then it is undeniably true. They're obviously being literal if all these multiple sources say the same thing. Everytime someone says Goku can't possibly do something he ends up doing it. So its obvious from day one where they are going with these characters. Plus, you gave no example of how giving them permanent power limits would make for better writing.

The narrator is there to embellish the story and help get people hyped. The number of people making the statement isn't a criterion for it being a literal statement. Two of those sources are villains. You can't take it at face value.

Limits means you have to be more creative. Goku had the Kaio-ken against Vegeta, but those power ups were transient and came at a cost, putting Goku in a very vulnerable position. His friends had to come back to save him and they all had to do their part in defeat Vegeta, including using Vegeta's artificial moonlight against him. Contrast that against Gohan's fight against Cell where he got another power up just because.

Do I really have to give examples that constraints make for better and more creative writing? I would think it's self evident.

It's not that every Saiyan became SSJ that bothers me, as there are still relatively few in existence, it's when it is too easy and when there are this many transformations. It's not creative.

[Bebi Hatchiyack]

Bro, if even the narrator himself, the numerous guides book and other out-universe sources themselves say that they have infinite potential, then it is undeniably true. They're obviously being literal if all these multiple sources say the same thing. Everytime someone says Goku can't possibly do something he ends up doing it. So its obvious from day one where they are going with these characters. Plus, you gave no example of how giving them permanent power limits would make for better writing.

Two of those sources are villains. You can't take it at face value.

The others are mostly the Deity of Dragon Ball from Kami-sama to Whis all said that Saiyan have unlimited power, when a God say that in my book you can take it as face value.

Heck in the Metal Cooler movie, Cooler owned himself by destroying himself because he thought he can control Goku's and Vegeta's power but got overloaded. They aknowledge that countless time that Saiyan have unlimited power the whole Zenkai-Power Up is here for a reason. ZPU that was brought back during the Black/Zamasu arc.

And even in GT during the Bebi arc that was STATED ! It's a face value it's a fact. I'm agree with Blain218 on this one.

As for the recent criticism people I think are more angry against the tingly in the back thingy than Caulifla and Kale having easily the form.

[ABED]

Movie 6 was a different issue, but regardless, characters can be wrong or once again be hyperbolic, and as we see the gods in DB are often wrong. Kaio made big mistakes and Kaioshin made the motherload of mistakes.

Limitations makes for more creativity. Adding a number to SSJ isn't creative. And given that Goten and Trunks don't have much of an effect on the outcome of the story, what point was there in making them SSJ's, off screen at that?

[Whatever]

Movie 6 was a different issue, but regardless, characters can be wrong or once again be hyperbolic, and as we see the gods in DB are often wrong. Kaio made big mistakes and Kaioshin made the motherload of mistakes.

Limitations makes for more creativity. Adding a number to SSJ isn't creative. And given that Goten and Trunks don't have much of an effect on the outcome of the story, what point was there in making them SSJ's, off screen at that?

The buu saga did a lot of things that amount to nothing,but i assume the reason Goten and Trunks got ssj was for the sake of a joke,so Vegeta and Gohan would react to surprise to it,it falls in line with everything relating to Trunks and Goten really,same way Gotenks was just a long drawn out joke.

[Bruma rabu]

Movie 6 was a different issue, but regardless, characters can be wrong or once again be hyperbolic, and as we see the gods in DB are often wrong. Kaio made big mistakes and Kaioshin made the motherload of mistakes.

Limitations makes for more creativity. Adding a number to SSJ isn't creative. And given that Goten and Trunks don't have much of an effect on the outcome of the story, what point was there in making them SSJ's, off screen at that?

The buu saga did a lot of things that amount to nothing,but i assume the reason Goten and Trunks got ssj was for the sake of a joke,so Vegeta and Gohan would react to surprise to it,it falls in line with everything relating to Trunks and Goten really,same way Gotenks was just a long drawn out joke.

Nothing wrong with that it did start out as a gag manga, and Akira Toriyama him self prefers to write jokes.

[ABED]

But it was no longer a gag manga. It had heavy doses of humor, but it wasn't inherently a gag manga.