Is Dragon Ball cynical at its core?

[WittyUsername]

Following him doesn't make him an IMMEDIATE threat. Goku's very range of the moment concrete bound.

I’m saying that Toriyama is inconsistent in regards to just how badly Goku wants to fight strong people, and him having Goku demand that Gohan finish Cell off is an example of that.

But he's not. Gohan was stronger than Cell. There was nothing to gain by giving Cell time. Now lets get back to the Dr. Gero example. Toriyama isn't having Goku act out of character by letting Dr. Gero complete the cyborgs, ergo he's not just doing it to facilitate the plot.

Then why did Toriyama even have the characters call attention to their easy solution to defeating Dr. Gero in the first place? It kind of seemed like the only reason Toriyama brought it up was so that he could avoid a plot hole by having the characters shoot that idea down. At that moment in the story, Goku deciding to let Dr. Gero do what he wants was done to facilitate the plot, especially given that part of Goku’s reasoning for letting him go was that he “hasn’t done anything wrong yet”, which, surprisingly enough, wasn’t actually a dubism (at least not all of it).

With that being said, I never even said that Goku letting Dr. Gero finish the artificial humans so he would have someone strong to fight was out of character for him. I said that I think it was a baffling decision that I personally took issue with, especially with how everyone else just went along with it, only to spend the rest of the arc trying to stop Cell from reaching his ultimate form. If Tenshinhan was so willing to fight the artificial humans, why did he later try to prevent Cell from absorbing #18?

[WittyUsername]

There is like...zilchola cynicism in Dragon Ball. Bad guys go good all the time. Bad guys who don’t are defeated. The main character is a happy go lucky dude who just likes fighting and making friends and his actions are never shown to have any serious negative repercussions.

The series is optimistic as fuck and I can’t imagine how anyone could get a cynical read on it unless they’re trying to make some serious mental gymnastics

That’s the impression I’ve been getting from how Toriyama and other fans have talked about the series. If the protagonists of a series are a bunch of vile sociopaths who never face reprecussions for their actions, that seems pretty cynical to me.

Also, since when does Goku like making friends? I know that the whole “power of friendship” shtick is apparently a recurring thing in shonen manga, but it’s never really been a thing in Dragon Ball.

[MasenkoHA]

That’s the impression I’ve been getting from how Toriyama and other fans have talked about the series. If the protagonists of a series are a bunch of vile sociopaths who never face reprecussions for their actions, that seems pretty cynical to me.

Where did you even get the idea they were sociopaths?

The series isn’t cynical. Like at all.

The characters not being paragons of virtue does not make the series cynical.

Also, since when does Goku like making friends? I know that the whole “power of friendship” shtick is apparently a recurring thing in shonen manga, but it’s never really been a thing in Dragon Ball.

Yeah I mean...other than befriending pretty much every rival he ever had?

[WittyUsername]

That’s the impression I’ve been getting from how Toriyama and other fans have talked about the series. If the protagonists of a series are a bunch of vile sociopaths who never face reprecussions for their actions, that seems pretty cynical to me.

Where did you even get the idea they were sociopaths?

The series isn’t cynical. Like at all.!

That’s the impression one gets from listening to Toriyama and a lot of fans of the series. I’ve flat out seen fans who have held the opinion that Goku belongs in Hell, including on this website, and at this point, I don’t know if I could argue with them.

Yeah I mean...other than befriending pretty much every rival he ever had?

Goku doesn’t seek out becoming friends with these guys. He had nothing to do with the supposed redemption of characters like Piccolo and Vegeta, and it’s debatable that Vegeta could even be considered his friend. Not only that, but he apparently hardly ever sees his friends. The end of the manga even had Bulma complain that Goku never visited her in five years.

[MasenkoHA]

. I’ve flat out seen fans who have held the opinion that Goku belongs in Hell, including on this website, and at this point, I don’t know if I could argue with them.

Where? You are literally the first person I’ve seen who said Goku belongs in hell.

I’ve seen fans read Goku as selfish but I’ve never heard anyone ever make the statement he belongs in hell.

Goku doesn’t seek out becoming friends with these guys. He had nothing to do with the supposed redemption of characters like Piccolo and Vegeta.

Supposed redemption?

Goku not being personally involved in their redemption doesn’t negate that he did become their friends.

The very fact that Goku befriends all these people who have tried to kill him goes completely in the opposite direction of your view the series is cynical.

The series is overtly optimistic almost to a fault.

[WittyUsername]

Where? You are literally the first person I’ve seen who said Goku belongs in hell.

I’ve seen fans read Goku as selfish but I’ve never heard anyone ever make the statement he belongs in hell.

I can’t remember what thread it was said in, but I definitely recall reading something like that. It was either on the board for Super, or the general discussions board. I think it might’ve been before you joined the site.

Supposed redemption?

Goku not being personally involved in their redemption doesn’t negate that he did become their friends.

The very fact that Goku befriends all these people who have tried to kill him goes completely in the opposite direction of your view the series is cynical.

The series is overtly optimistic almost to a fault.

Goku presumably being friends with people like Piccolo and Tenshinhan (I say “presumably” because they hardly interact) never struck me as being particularly heartwarming or sentimental. Don’t even get me started on Vegeta, who never came close to expressing remorse over his actions. Toriyama doesn’t even seem to be very good with sentimentality if Minus is any indication.

With that said, keep in mind that I initially made this thread to ask what people here thought on the matter. I wasn’t trying to make any definitive statements myself, even if I am more inclined to view the series as being cynical than I used to.

[90sDBZ]

There is like...zilchola cynicism in Dragon Ball. Bad guys go good all the time. Bad guys who don’t are defeated. The main character is a happy go lucky dude who just likes fighting and making friends and his actions are never shown to have any serious negative repercussions.

The series is optimistic as fuck and I can’t imagine how anyone could get a cynical read on it unless they’re trying to make some serious mental gymnastics

I agree with this 100%. All over the world people have come out with stories about how the series inpired them, or got them through hard times.

I think anyone who thinks it's cynical is likely extremely cynical themselves.

[ruler9871]

There is like...zilchola cynicism in Dragon Ball. Bad guys go good all the time. Bad guys who don’t are defeated. The main character is a happy go lucky dude who just likes fighting and making friends and his actions are never shown to have any serious negative repercussions.

The series is optimistic as fuck and I can’t imagine how anyone could get a cynical read on it unless they’re trying to make some serious mental gymnastics

I agree with this 100%. All over the world people have come out with stories about how the series inpired them, or got them through hard times.

I think anyone who thinks it's cynical is likely extremely cynical themselves.

Yeah. A lot of the alleged cynicism in the series is really just fans projecting.

[ABED]

Following him doesn't make him an IMMEDIATE threat. Goku's very range of the moment concrete bound.

I’m saying that Toriyama is inconsistent in regards to just how badly Goku wants to fight strong people, and him having Goku demand that Gohan finish Cell off is an example of that.

But he's not. Gohan was stronger than Cell. There was nothing to gain by giving Cell time. Now lets get back to the Dr. Gero example. Toriyama isn't having Goku act out of character by letting Dr. Gero complete the cyborgs, ergo he's not just doing it to facilitate the plot.

Then why did Toriyama even have the characters call attention to their easy solution to defeating Dr. Gero in the first place? It kind of seemed like the only reason Toriyama brought it up was so that he could avoid a plot hole by having the characters shoot that idea down. At that moment in the story, Goku deciding to let Dr. Gero do what he wants was done to facilitate the plot, especially given that part of Goku’s reasoning for letting him go was that he “hasn’t done anything wrong yet”, which, surprisingly enough, wasn’t actually a dubism (at least not all of it).

With that being said, I never even said that Goku letting Dr. Gero finish the artificial humans so he would have someone strong to fight was out of character for him. I said that I think it was a baffling decision that I personally took issue with, especially with how everyone else just went along with it, only to spend the rest of the arc trying to stop Cell from reaching his ultimate form. If Tenshinhan was so willing to fight the artificial humans, why did he later try to prevent Cell from absorbing #18?

He draws attention to show that their intention wasn't to stop them, but to fight them. He's drawing attention to Goku's motives. It's not like they have a huge discussions about the merits of their plan. Goku rejects the idea and no one puts up a fight. They want to fight because that's their motivation. They aren't acting out of character. That "reasoning" is clearly a half-hearted rationalization both in how it was written and how Nozawa delivered that line.

Your point about facilitating the plot means exactly that you think it's out of character. If you don't mean that, then what's the point of that statement? Every single writer facilitates the plot. So either your statement is superfluous due it to applying to every story ever written or just a misunderstanding of Goku's character.

Seinfeld is more cynical than DB. What do you even take cynical to mean? DB was never idealistic. Goku did save Umigame but he didn't go out of his way to do so. Goku doesn't go looking for people to help. He won't turn a blind eye if they ask him or he sees it, but it's not something he's ever searched out.

[WittyUsername]

Following him doesn't make him an IMMEDIATE threat. Goku's very range of the moment concrete bound.

But he's not. Gohan was stronger than Cell. There was nothing to gain by giving Cell time. Now lets get back to the Dr. Gero example. Toriyama isn't having Goku act out of character by letting Dr. Gero complete the cyborgs, ergo he's not just doing it to facilitate the plot.

Then why did Toriyama even have the characters call attention to their easy solution to defeating Dr. Gero in the first place? It kind of seemed like the only reason Toriyama brought it up was so that he could avoid a plot hole by having the characters shoot that idea down. At that moment in the story, Goku deciding to let Dr. Gero do what he wants was done to facilitate the plot, especially given that part of Goku’s reasoning for letting him go was that he “hasn’t done anything wrong yet”, which, surprisingly enough, wasn’t actually a dubism (at least not all of it).

With that being said, I never even said that Goku letting Dr. Gero finish the artificial humans so he would have someone strong to fight was out of character for him. I said that I think it was a baffling decision that I personally took issue with, especially with how everyone else just went along with it, only to spend the rest of the arc trying to stop Cell from reaching his ultimate form. If Tenshinhan was so willing to fight the artificial humans, why did he later try to prevent Cell from absorbing #18?

He draws attention to show that their intention wasn't to stop them, but to fight them. He's drawing attention to Goku's motives. It's not like they have a huge discussions about the merits of their plan. Goku rejects the idea and no one puts up a fight. They want to fight because that's their motivation. They aren't acting out of character. That "reasoning" is clearly a half-hearted rationalization both in how it was written and how Nozawa delivered that line.

Your point about facilitating the plot means exactly that you think it's out of character. If you don't mean that, then what's the point of that statement? Every single writer facilitates the plot. So either your statement is superfluous due it to applying to every story ever written or just a misunderstanding of Goku's character.

Seinfeld is more cynical than DB. What do you even take cynical to mean? DB was never idealistic. Goku did save Umigame but he didn't go out of his way to do so. Goku doesn't go looking for people to help. He won't turn a blind eye if they ask him or he sees it, but it's not something he's ever searched out.

I said that it was clearly there to facilitate the plot because, again, there was no reason for Bulma to come up with her plan except to avoid a plot hole, and the characters would contradict themselves later in the arc by trying to stop Cell from achieving his perfect form.

If the Dragon Ball franchise isn’t idealistic, that would imply that it’s cynical by nature. The opposite of idealism is cynicism. Also, what does Seinfeld have to do with anything? I don’t even like that show, or Jerry Seinfeld.

I have no clue what we’re even arguing about at this point, especially when I never even implied that Goku is a righteous hero who seeks out evil, nor did I ever suggest that I wanted him to be like that. I’m saying that fans and Toriyama talk about him as though he’s a sociopath, which I don’t want him to be either, because why should I root for him if that’s the case?

[ABED]

She brings it up because it would be bad writing to NOT have someone bring up an obvious solution to a problem, but Goku's goal wasn't to stop them. Seeing as their goal was never to stop them, it's not a plothole. All Toriyama is doing is drawing attention to that fact.

The opposite of cynicism isn't idealism, it's optimism. Goku and his friends save the world, even if it's not their fundamental goal. They achieve their goals. They are happy, and the heroes always save the day. How is that in any way cynical?

I was just pointing out that there are more cynical shows. You liking or not liking Seinfeld is meaningless to why I brought it up. I brought it up to give you an example of a show that's actually cynical. And how dare you, sir. Seinfeld is pure comic brilliance.

I’m saying that fans and Toriyama talk about him as though he’s a sociopath, which I don’t want him to be either, because why should I root for him if that’s the case?

You root for them because they haven't changed. Their goals are the same as they've always been. And even if they are sociopaths, so what? Toriyama may talk about them as sociopaths, but to that I bring up "Death of the Author".

[WittyUsername]

She brings it up because it would be bad writing to NOT have someone bring up an obvious solution to a problem, but Goku's goal wasn't to stop them. Seeing as their goal was never to stop them, it's not a plothole. All Toriyama is doing is drawing attention to that fact.

The opposite of cynicism isn't idealism, it's optimism. Goku and his friends save the world, even if it's not their fundamental goal. They achieve their goals. They are happy, and the heroes always save the day. How is that in any way cynical?

I was just pointing out that there are more cynical shows. You liking or not liking Seinfeld is meaningless to why I brought it up. I brought it up to give you an example of a show that's actually cynical. And how dare you, sir. Seinfeld is pure comic brilliance.

If it wasn’t their goal to stop the artificial humans, fine, but why did they spend the rest of the arc trying to stop Cell from achieving his goals? If all they wanted was to have a good fight, then there’s no reason that they should’ve gotten in Cell’s way. The only character who was consistent in that regard was Vegeta.

You root for them because they haven't changed. Their goals are the same as they've always been. And even if they are sociopaths, so what? Toriyama may talk about them as sociopaths, but to that I bring up "Death of the Author".

If they are sociopaths, then they either shouldn’t be allowed to achieve their goals, or the series needs to make it as clear that we’re supposed to be appalled by them. Having a bad guy as the protagonist isn’t an inherently bad thing (again, Breaking Bad did it really well), but it needs to be made clear within the story that the person’s actions are meant to be seen as reprehensible.

[Cure Dragon 255]

That’s the impression I’ve been getting from how Toriyama and other fans have talked about the series. If the protagonists of a series are a bunch of vile sociopaths who never face reprecussions for their actions, that seems pretty cynical to me.

Where did you even get the idea they were sociopaths?

The series isn’t cynical. Like at all.!

That’s the impression one gets from listening to Toriyama and a lot of fans of the series. I’ve flat out seen fans who have held the opinion that Goku belongs in Hell, including on this website, and at this point, I don’t know if I could argue with them.

Yeah I mean...other than befriending pretty much every rival he ever had?

Goku doesn’t seek out becoming friends with these guys. He had nothing to do with the supposed redemption of characters like Piccolo and Vegeta, and it’s debatable that Vegeta could even be considered his friend. Not only that, but he apparently hardly ever sees his friends. The end of the manga even had Bulma complain that Goku never visited her in five years.

Then just stop listening to them! Toriyama intended SOME poison and only for Goku, WHO STILL DOES HEROIC THINGS ON THE SIDE. STOP LISTENING TO THOSE DANG "Dragon Ball is a cynical hellhole". Or else just quit Dragon Ball. Your choice.

[ABED]

Maybe I'm just not being clear, but it wasn't their goal to stop the cyborgs from being created. Their goal was always to fight them. Vegeta was the most consistent, but Goku also wanted a fight and did nothing to try to stop Cell from achieving his goals until the Cell Games.

Time and time again in this conversation you refuse to acknowledge that Goku has done this before.

If they are sociopaths, then they either shouldn’t be allowed to achieve their goals, or the series needs to make it as clear that we’re supposed to be appalled by them. Having a bad guy as the protagonist isn’t an inherently bad thing (again, Breaking Bad did it really well), but it needs to be made clear within the story that the person’s actions are meant to be seen as reprehensible.

Why? Why does the series have to take any moral stance? It's fiction. It's perfectly fine to root this sort of thing, especially a series that's so over the top and unrealistic.

[WittyUsername]

Maybe I'm just not being clear, but it wasn't their goal to stop the cyborgs from being created. Their goal was always to fight them. Vegeta was the most consistent, but Goku also wanted a fight and did nothing to try to stop Cell from achieving his goals until the Cell Games.

Time and time again in this conversation you refuse to acknowledge that Goku has done this before.

This is getting extremely tiresome. I wasn’t refusing to acknowledge anything. I specifically pointed out how Goku has allowed bad people to get away for the sake of getting to fight them again. I wasn’t in denial of that. I just hate how inconsistent the Cell arc as a whole is on this ideology on the part of the protagonists. If their only goal is to fight strong opponents, then why didn’t they just let Cell obtain his perfect form? Why did Goku insist that Gohan kill Cell as quickly as possible? Wouldn’t it make more sense for Goku to let Cell go so he could train to get stronger?

Why? Why does the series have to take any moral stance? It's fiction. It's perfectly fine to root this sort of thing, especially a series that's so over the top and unrealistic.

By your logic, it should be perfectly okay to portray Luke Skywalker as a child rapist. After all, Star Wars is over the top fiction.

By the way, isn’t the opposite of optimism pessimism? I didn’t say Dragon Ball is pessimistic. I was asking if it’s cynical.

[ABED]

YOu are refusing to acknowledge it. You said flat out that Goku only allows them to be created to facilitate the plot. That's factually untrue because we've seen in the past that he allows bad guys to get away if he thinks he'll get a better fight down the road. It's in character, ergo it wasn't done purely to facilitate the plot. If you know the characters, what makes you think they wouldn't allow Dr. Gero to create the cyborgs?

Cell is a present threat. He hasn't been subdued yet and if pressed could destroy the Earth because he doesn't need oxygen to live. If Goku thought Cell would just leave if he lost, he wouldn't have told Gohan to kill him.

By your logic, it should be perfectly okay to portray Luke Skywalker as a child rapist. After all, Star Wars is over the top fiction.

Except that Star Wars is about good vs. evil. DB is not. DB is about martial artists whose biggest desire is to become stronger.

By the way, isn’t the opposite of optimism pessimism? I didn’t say Dragon Ball is pessimistic. I was asking if it’s cynical.
They're interrelated. What do you think cynicism means? Just because a piece of work or a person isn't cynical doesn't mean they are idealists either. It's not either or.

[8000 Saiyan]

Nope, it isn't. I fail to see how it could be cynical in any way. DB is very optimistic. It's not like Watchmen or some film noir. It might not be idealistic, but that doesn't mean it's cynical.

[WittyUsername]

YOu are refusing to acknowledge it. You said flat out that Goku only allows them to be created to facilitate the plot. That's factually untrue because we've seen in the past that he allows bad guys to get away if he thinks he'll get a better fight down the road. It's in character, ergo it wasn't done purely to facilitate the plot.

Cell is a present threat. He hasn't been subdued yet and if pressed could destroy the Earth because he doesn't need oxygen to live. If Goku thought Cell would just leave if he lost, he wouldn't have told Gohan to kill him.

I’m pretty sure Freeza was also a present threat who could destroy any planet he wanted to. That didn’t stop Goku from letting him go for the sake of a rematch on three different occasions. Besides, Cell was much weaker than Gohan and Goku at that point, whereas Freeza was on par with Goku when he offered to let him go.

Except that Star Wars is about good vs. evil. DB is not.

Doesn’t a major source of conflict in Dragon Ball involve trying to stop bad guys from blowing up the world? If there aren’t supposed to be any good or bad guys in the series, then what is the point of having characters who openly brag about being evil, like Freeza? Why does the series make a big deal over Goku supposedly being “pure of heart”? Why does the series constantly have the protagonists using the Dragon Balls to bring innocent civilians back to life?

Also, are you saying that if Goku was a child rapist, I should be fine with that, since Dragon Ball isn’t about good vs. evil?

[ABED]

How does any of this evidence that DB is cynical?

[WittyUsername]

Freeza wasn't on par with Super Saiyan Goku, especially by that point in the battle. SSJ Goku was always stronger and that late in the battle, Freeza had lost too much energy. Had Freeza tried anything, Goku believed he could stop him.

If Freeza tried to destroy the Earth from space, Goku wouldn’t have had anyway of stopping him, because unlike Freeza, Goku needs oxygen to survive.

There are heroes and villains in DB, but it's themes aren't centered around good vs. evil. It's about martial arts and striving for constant improvement. I honestly don't recall Freeza bragging about being evil.

If there are heroes and villains in Dragon Ball, then why would I want the supposed heroes to be a bunch of sociopaths who are only in it for themselves? I’m aware that Dragon Ball is not a series about fighting in the name of truth and justice and whatnot, nor did I ever suggest it should be like that, but that doesn’t mean that I want the protagonists to be objectively vile people who never get called out for their shittyness.

And how does ANY of this evidence that DB is or could be cynical?

As I’ve already stated, I didn’t make this thread for the purpose of forming any definitive statements on the series. I asked if other people thought the series was cynical in nature, and gave some examples that could potentially support that argument so that people wouldn’t think my question was out of left field. That’s it.

One additional thing I’ll say on the matter in regards to Goku and the gang letting Dr. Gero complete the artificial humans is that MistareFusion/Gaffer Tape actually made a pretty insightful video on the subject early last year. The video is part of his Dragon Ball Dissection series, and while he does express the opinion that Goku’s decision to let Gero do what he wanted was a dumb idea, he also talks about how morality pertains to Dragon Ball characters, in addition to discussing whether or not Goku is an inherently self-serving character. You likely won’t agree with it, but it does articulate some of my own problems with how Goku is often handled.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JTHi7I-bt9M