What fans want VS real-life released products.

[KorgDTR2000]

The idea that the movies were written specifically to provide villains for the video games seems like a pretty massive stretch.

Surely it would be cheaper just to create villains for the videogames from scratch, rather than spending the time and money to make a movie starring said villain just to make them a selling point feature in a video game. And the idea that they were playing the long game of figuring that in ten years time there would be a video game that would want to use the movie's villain... I just don't see it.

The Dragon Ball movies follow a formula many anime movies do: They want to make a movie but due to the production timeline and the storyline of the series it's not practical or even possible to make it fit perfectly in the existing story, so they take the basic character designs and status quo the current arc and tell a new story outside of continuity, often based partially on current plot points.

[Grimlock]

I agree with everything but this part. The original DB was able to do what you said in its tournaments. Look at Tien for example, by the end of the tournament he was a very different character from when he was introduced. Then again, the 22nd Tenkaichi didn't have to worry about 70+ other fighters taking up screen time. The reason the TOP didn't work was simply due to it being written by weak writers. You give that bunch any other format to work with and you'd end up with the same disappointing results.

Yeah, I mean, whenever I'm talking about the tournaments, I mean the Dragon Ball Super's ones as they are the latest ones. And we've got two of those practically in a row. Dragon Ball tournaments also had the privilege of featuring some actual martial arts and great physical moves, something these new ones doesn't even have. It's just a bunch of generic blows and most of the times using that effect in which you don't see characters fighting, just the impact.

You have not convinced me you understand what a plot is.

If the list I've just provided hasn't conviced you, then we know who in fact doesn't understand what an actual plot is.

Characters fighting for the sake of their universe is very basic, but it's a plot. Siimple plots are still plots.

Nah, you have to take your time to develop and establish stuff. Not simply bringing back someone (who doesn't need to back in the first place), recolor his skin, kill him and call it a day. By no means this is mean that the plot must be complex, just try not be stuck with the basic and make things so shallow that babies can also play in the water. You guys are always saying that Dragon Ball is for teenagers, aren't you? So as far as I know, teenagers can go deeper in the water.

It's not beyond your point. It's the heart of the issue. Fighting tells a story. What are they fighting for? What drives them?

Those questions are answered before the fight begins, a decent plot will give you those answers and more if it's good. Or what are you going to tell me that you can tell what the characters are fighting for and what drives them just by watching the fights? If you can, good for you. And if you value fights more than a story, good for you too.

How does the TOP not have a story? What does it lack that makes it not qualify as a story?

You tell me. Where is the story of Universe Survival saga? It's just some people who were boring at the moment who decided that holding a tournament would be great, motivated by someone who was also doing nothing but training. The tournament happens. The tournament ends (with a predictable victorious team) and everyone goes home as per usual. If there's something more than this, where is it?

No it's not. That's all background stuff that has little to do with Goku. Goku would fight him for two reasons - first and foremost, he's trying to kill his friends, and because he loves to fight the strongest fighters he can.

If that is the case, then not even Goku vs Freeza is that much of an important battle.

But since that's not how I see it and taking into consideration Goku's line/behavior that he will fight for the Saiyans and even ask Vegeta to give him some Saiyan pride, Goku vs Freeza is indeed a battle for the Saiyans, not a random one.

If it doesn't, it's random moves and wasted motion.

That's precisely how it feels when I watch most of Dragon Ball fights, mainly the Dragon Ball Super ones. A bunch of random moves and wasted motion.

[ABED]

Those questions are answered before the fight begins, a decent plot will give you those answers and more if it's good.

Where'd you get that idea? Are you reading some book that says the questions of motivation have to be answered at a certain time? Of course the questions are answered before the fight begins. The stakes and motivations need to be established.

You tell me. Where is the story of Universe Survival saga? It's just some people who were boring at the moment who decided that holding a tournament would be great, motivated by someone who was also doing nothing but training. The tournament happens. The tournament ends (with a predictable victorious team) and everyone goes home as per usual. If there's something more than this, where is it?

An all powerful deity holds a tournament to see whether mortals are worth saving so dozens of fighters from all over the multiverse fight to protect their worlds from extinction. Simple. You are overthinking this. Whether you find the story interesting is a separate issue, but it is a story. Wow, you predicted who would win? That must make it a bad story unlike all those other times where we didn't know the heroes would win.

And if you value fights more than a story, good for you too.

You keep drawing this artificial distinction between the fights and the story. They are part of the story. I'm convinced you don't actually know what a story is. Stories are a causal chain of events that lead to a dramatic payoff to what was set up. The fights not only should tell a story, they should be part of the story.

Nah, you have to take your time to develop and establish stuff.

You keep using vague and unhelpful phrases and I don't even think you've thought through your own ideas. What wasn't established?

If that is the case, then not even Goku vs Freeza is that much of an important battle.

But since that's not how I see it and taking into consideration Goku's line/behavior that he will fight for the Saiyans and even ask Vegeta to give him some Saiyan pride, Goku vs Freeza is indeed a battle for the Saiyans, not a random one

Yes it is. The stakes are high. Freeza is killing people left and right, including characters we care about. You've created these weird rules in your head about what constitutes a narrative. What exactly is Goku's behavior beyond that single line? How is Goku defeating Freeza for a race he doesn't know, doesn't care about, somehow more meaningful than revenge for the death of his best friend?

You insist on using the word random but why is fighting for a random race we don't know outside of a few jerks who tried to kill our hero cathartic? What makes that somehow this great story as opposed to protecting his loved ones from a genocidal madman?

And please stop putting the onus on me to answer my own question.

I'm not expecting every episode to be good, as even the best shows have their bad days, but Super was a bit different. Instead of bad episodes being the exception, they were the norm, with good ones being few and far between. Not only did it start bad, it remained bad for almost a year. Add to that the first 27 episodes being movie retellings, the last 5 being filler episodes, and you've got a situation where any other show just wouldn't be put out in that condition, much less last an entire year in said condition.

That's fine if that's how you see it, but I enjoyed it. And wait, the last 5 of the entire series were filler? There are a lot of really shitty shows out there, so I don't know where you get the idea tha tbad shows wouldn't get a lengthy run.

[Tai Lung]

It's a shame we couldn't get more of that. The problem is that there were so many writers that you'd get a scene like this right after a scene of him not caring about the potential of other universes getting destroyed.

I answer you here because the other topic does not seem appropriate to me.

As a Saiyan goku, he had the interest to meet new strong warriors and confront them but he completely ignores the intentions of omni-kings does not seem to me something really condemnable especially because at least he gave the opportunity to survive one of them and if his universe survives is better because goku planned to revive the universes anyway ...

neither can we consider all these as meaningless murders as explained was a natural change "if the wish was wrong" meant that life had not evolved correctly and had to start again

They're not, but Super has separated them. In the TOP for example, Goku and friends are fighting random characters with 0 backstories or personalities, just to get to the next set of random nobodies. There's no story there, it's just fights. In the 22nd Tenkaichi for example, Goku is fighting a character who has a backstory, who has goals, and who has an outlook on life. What makes Goku's fight with Tien different from what we got in the TOP is that he's fighting a well written character that allows the viewer to care about both, and understand where they're coming from. We don't get any of that in the TOP, even the main antagonist has nothing going for him until the last 2 episodes.

characters like ranfan, giran or master tsuru never had a backstory and in some cases the anime added a bit of that like the past of tien shin han and tao pai pai

but I will say that in the TOP anime more was contributed ... many characters had a real development ... others had good dialogues and fights or skills for which they will be remembered at least
Caulifla learned a lot from goku and began to feel admiration for him and more respect for his peers.
Kale overcame his fears and achieved his goal of being stronger so as not to be a hindrance
dyspo had a poorly designed however he showed great courage and loyalty by not accepting frieza's deal
the namekians took the situation seriously and made an admirable sacrifice in order to save their universe
obumi had good dialogues and a great battle with gohan
Bergamo and his brothers displayed interesting combat skills as well as the enmity against Universe 7 progressively developing in the exhibition tournament.

that without counting the interesting interactions that there were between several opponents that had chemistry in combat or related in some way
saiyans u7 and saiyans u6
piccolo and saonel / pirina
obumi and gohan
etc etc

[Matches Malone]

neither can we consider all these as meaningless murders as explained was a natural change.

Characters like ranfan, giran or master tsuru never had a backstory.

I know why it was being done, I just think Goku should've had more of a reaction than he did. He might have if whoever wrote the Roshi episode handled it, but that's the problem with having so many writers and no guidelines.

I wasn't talking about everyone, just the main antagonists Tien and Jiren.

That's fine if that's how you see it, but I enjoyed it.

The last 5 of the entire series were filler?

You can enjoy it, that doesn't mean it's a good show.

I was talking about its first year, which ended with the copy Vegeta arc.

You guys are always saying that Dragon Ball is for teenagers, aren't you? So as far as I know, teenagers can go deeper in the water.

They say it's for little children, so we shouldn't have any expectations for it, and instead should be happy with what we get.

[ABED]

You can enjoy it, that doesn't mean it's a good show.

And your claiming it's not doesn't make it so. You know, opinions and all that.

[Matches Malone]

And your claiming it's not doesn't make it so. You know, opinions and all that.

Under normal circumstances you'd be right, something being good or not is subjective, but this is a bit different. Super's first year was full of unfinished and rushed episodes, making it an objectively bad show. It's like buying a new car with a broken air conditioner, you can like it and look past that flaw, but no one's going to say you being cheated or not is subjective.

[Vijay]

I wanted Kai to be what it's OP/ED promises it to be. An updated animation, artistry, "refreshed" look

Instead, fans were handed same ol' 80's/90's animation which included some horrendous episodes done by Uchiyama/Ebisawa...damn it TOEI

[Matches Malone]

I wanted Kai to be what it's OP/ED promises it to be. An updated animation, artistry, "refreshed" look

Kai was announced as a remaster with new openings and endings, they never promised it'd be anything more. The problem with having it re-animated from the ground up, is that we'd be stuck with Yamamoro's plastic looking designs and worse animated scenes due to Toei being overloaded. Unless we could've gotten a seasonal remake, a remaster was the best option to go with. The issue I have with Kai is it not starting with DB.

[Vijay]

I wanted Kai to be what it's OP/ED promises it to be. An updated animation, artistry, "refreshed" look

Kai was announced as a remaster with new openings and endings, they never promised it'd be anything more. The problem with having it re-animated from the ground up, is that we'd be stuck with Yamamoro's plastic looking designs and worse animated scenes due to Toei being overloaded. Unless we could've gotten a seasonal remake, a remaster was the best option to go with. The issue I have with Kai is it not starting with DB.

Dude, it's DragonBall returnin after absymal GT. Of course fans wud expect some sorta improvements. Talk abt stuck with fckin Paleolithic animation when ur releasin alongside series with brand new animation quality like FMAB, Inuyasha: TFA...

[ABED]

And your claiming it's not doesn't make it so. You know, opinions and all that.

Under normal circumstances you'd be right, something being good or not is subjective, but this is a bit different. Super's first year was full of unfinished and rushed episodes, making it an objectively bad show. It's like buying a new car with a broken air conditioner, you can like it and look past that flaw, but no one's going to say you being cheated or not is subjective.

First, it's not "objectively bad" whatever the hell that would mean in this context. Second, the art was bad in a few episodes but that doesn't mean the writing was bad. Good stories can overcome bad or just boring visuals. It seems like the bad artwork is the basis of much of your appraisal. The artwork in an animated series is a means to an end, not the end in itself.

Art is nothing like a car. There aren't objective measures of quality whereas you can objectively say whether a car or elements in them are functional. It's qualities are quantifiable and measurable.

[SupremeKai25]

I saw a lot of people enjoying the additions Super made to the BoG arc, as well as the U6 arc and the slice of life episodes. Also in the first year of Super we also had the beginning of the Future Trunks arc, which was received very positively and had massive ratings (there's a thread here on kanzenshuu with all the ratings of the episodes of Super and ep. 47 was one of the most successful ones).

So no, Super was not "objectively bad" in its first year. You hated it, okay, but many other people liked it.

[Matches Malone]

Super was not "objectively bad" in its first year. You hated it, okay, but many other people liked it.

If I hated it I wouldn't have watched through 131 episodes of it and recommended it to people. I enjoyed Super and am looking forward to its return, but I'm not going to call what was a rushed unfinished product in its first year a good show. That's just the art and animation, you've also got multiple issues with the writing that lasted way past that first year.

Dude, it's DragonBall returnin after absymal GT. Of course fans wud expect some sorta improvements. Talk abt stuck with fckin Paleolithic animation when ur releasin alongside series with brand new animation quality like FMAB, Inuyasha: TFA...

I would love a remake as well, something that covers the entire manga from start to finish in one consistent show, but from Toei ? Look how bad they handled Super, if they couldn't be bothered to treat a new product right, why would they do any better with a remake ? Even with a remaster, they still managed to mess it up in multiple ways. If we could get a remake done right, as in given enough time to be put together, then of course I'd be on board with it.

[SupremeKai25]

Super was not "objectively bad" in its first year. You hated it, okay, but many other people liked it.

If I hated it I wouldn't have watched through 131 episodes of it and recommended it to people. I enjoyed Super and am looking forward to its return, but I'm not going to call what was a rushed unfinished product in its first year a good show. That's just the art and animation, you've also got multiple issues with the writing that lasted way past that first year.

Dude, it's DragonBall returnin after absymal GT. Of course fans wud expect some sorta improvements. Talk abt stuck with fckin Paleolithic animation when ur releasin alongside series with brand new animation quality like FMAB, Inuyasha: TFA...

I would love a remake as well, something that covers the entire manga from start to finish in one consistent show, but from Toei ? Look how bad they handled Super, if they couldn't be bothered to treat a new product right, why would they do any better with a remake ? Even with a remaster, they still managed to mess it up in multiple ways. If we could get a remake done right, as in given enough time to be put together, then of course I'd be on board with it.

You're not going to call it good, but many people can. It's all opinions, you can't call something "objectively bad".

[ABED]

Super was not "objectively bad" in its first year. You hated it, okay, but many other people liked it.

If I hated it I wouldn't have watched through 131 episodes of it and recommended it to people. I enjoyed Super and am looking forward to its return, but I'm not going to call what was a rushed unfinished product in its first year a good show. That's just the art and animation, you've also got multiple issues with the writing that lasted way past that first year.

Dude, it's DragonBall returnin after absymal GT. Of course fans wud expect some sorta improvements. Talk abt stuck with fckin Paleolithic animation when ur releasin alongside series with brand new animation quality like FMAB, Inuyasha: TFA...

I would love a remake as well, something that covers the entire manga from start to finish in one consistent show, but from Toei ? Look how bad they handled Super, if they couldn't be bothered to treat a new product right, why would they do any better with a remake ? Even with a remaster, they still managed to mess it up in multiple ways. If we could get a remake done right, as in given enough time to be put together, then of course I'd be on board with it.

It's TOEI, the same people who did the original run. You should've known by now they weren't going to throw a lot of time and money into the TV series. That's not their business model.

[Matches Malone]

It's TOEI, the same people who did the original run. You should've known by now they weren't going to throw a lot of time and money into the TV series. That's not their business model.

The original run wasn't a rushed mess. It had proper pre-production that allowed the people working on it to make the best product they could. Did it have issues ? of course, but nowhere near as many as Super did. The production and writing (apart from a few exceptions) were consistent from start to finish. Even when one part didn't work, you had the other parts working just fine to make up for it.

[ABED]

Do you know that for a fact or are you guessing about how much pre-production time? My guess is that DB didn't suffer from a few of these issues because they had the manga to follow.

I think people are overblowing how bad the animation was.

[Matches Malone]

Do you know that for a fact or are you guessing about how much pre-production time?

My guess is that DB didn't suffer from a few of these issues because they had the manga to follow.

Multiple people who worked on the show said the main issue they had was a lack of pre-production time compared to not only the original 3 anime, but other anime in general. The minimum time required to get things in order (from what I understand) is six months. Anything more is better, while anything less starts creating issues. Super got around 3, which is why EP5 was such a disaster, despite talented people working on it. The average episode needs 3-4 months of work to be ready, while episodes like 5 got 4-5 weeks only. According to one of the people who regularly worked on it, they didn't start getting comfortable until the Black arc, and even then they still ran into issues up until the show ended. One writer said the reason Super hasn't returned is because Toei underestimated how hard a weekly DB show would be, and that they didn't want to make the same mistake of rushing it like the did with Super 1.0.

The manga was a big help from the writing side of things, but animation, fights, movement, etc. was better due to it getting the average pre-production time that every other anime is expected to have. Super on the other hand was green lit after Toei saw RF's box office results, which was in March. The problem is that they wanted it to take Kai's spot, which only had 3 months worth of episodes left. Had Super got the Ok in January, things wouldn't have been anywhere near as bad as they were. Had they aired the international version of Kai's Buu arc, that would've given them an additional 8-10 weeks to work on Super, which would've made a big difference.

[ABED]

That's really just the artwork/animation aspect which I think you place far too much importance on in terms of the quality of the episodes and while you are correct that a brand new series would've probably not gotten off the ground had they had these issues, but that isn't reflected in the writing. It's about on par with what you'd expect out of a revival to a long dormant story. The scripts don't feel rushed and given DBZ had Lupin Vegeta, I don't think the animation is that much worse than what we've seen before even in DB's heyday.

[Tai Lung]

I know why it was being done, I just think Goku should've had more of a reaction than he did. He might have if whoever wrote the Roshi episode handled it, but that's the problem with having so many writers and no guidelines.

I wasn't talking about everyone, just the main antagonists Tien and Jiren.

Yes, but goku was never a person who feels sorry for himself or regretting it, above all in a situation where he does not gain anything from that ... in fact, goku barely reacted when he learned that he had killed his grandfather by accident

in the case of roshi it was a close being who died in front of his eyes partly because of him so it was a more natural reaction, anyway when he fought at the end of the tournament he took the whole matter seriously already after having met many warriors