What fans want VS real-life released products.

[Goe]

Hi, mates:

I write this because there's a subject that catches my eye: it seems that fans want one thing and the products they bring out are often far from what we fans want. And I have long experience in this. I'll explain my experiences and opinions about this separating into 2 sections: 80s-90s Toei Films and GT. Let's start:

80's-90's Dragon Ball Toei films.

When I was a kid (in the late 90's) I already thought that all the movies (from the legend of the dragon Shenron to the Bio-Broly’s film) were about a very bad guy coming, and Goku and his very well known colleagues fighting against him and defeating him. I thought that was a little too monotonous, and that it didn't add anything interesting to the series I was watching on TV, which I liked the most. I found the TV specials more interesting because the main characters were not Goku, but Bardock or Gohan/Trunks, and the time when the action took place was also different (and in Bardock's case, the setting, which was not Earth). At that time, I sometimes thought that they would release a film about things that happened before Goku came to Earth, and I was especially excited that they would release material from Grandpa Gohan.

Years later (I'm talking about 2006-2007) I got into an old DB forum in Spanish (I'm a Spaniard, so sorry if my English is not good enough), and I saw that the criteria were the same among most members: a lot of negative criticism of Toei's films (in general...there were supporters of the films, but less of them), praise for the two TV specials, and wishes that they would bring out material about unseen stories (I remember some comments about how they could get something out of Mutenroshi's youth or, of Vegeta's life from his birth until Raditz was killed, or of Goku's mother... but in any case, I think that the fanfictions that were created there about things like the legendary SSJ about a thousand years ago, or about Vegeta's childhood, indicate considerable wishes of the fans to see untold stories. So the criteria were very uniform.

However, despite the fact that, looking at my criteria and those of that forum, there seems to be a desire to see such stories, we were never able to enjoy them, while Goku's battles against Turles, Broly, Slug, Cooler... we had a bunch, and it doesn't seem to be what the public was longing for.

Then, why Toei did that? I think the key is simple: videogames. let me explain that:

In 1991 the film Cooler was released and in 1992 Cooler was released in the NES Dragon Ball Z III: Ressen Jinzōningen... it seems that the film was made to make the game.

Broly, Bojack, and Zangya were released in Butoden 2 on the SNES, and both that game and the movies where these characters appeared are from 1993. And of course, that's a clear indication that they made the movie with that idea in mind.

Then, in the game of the plan to exterminate the Saiyans (1994), clones of Turles (1990), Slug (1991) and Cooler (1991) are released. The proximity in time indicates that they had that idea: to create enemies so that Goku and his colleagues would have to fight them in video games.

In PS2 Budokai 3 (2004) Broly and Cooler were available, who had already appeared in the SNES games but had not appeared in the PSOne games nor the PS2 Budokai 1 and 2. It may be because they had been in the reserve to re-appear in future games some years later and be the big news of the game. The fact that the cover of B3 features these two villains shows us that at least they were a good hook.

In PS2's Budokai Tenkaichi (2005), Janemba (1995) is added to the cast. Ten years later, it may be that the Janemba movie wasn't made to make a video game, but was something that came out later. However, I suspect that the people behind this business are very far-sighted, and are able to think "if we release this movie now we will make money now and in a few years we will put it into a video game and win it even more money". And in fact, in the video games of the 21st century, they have used these characters a lot.

Yeah, that's probably what's going on. When creating a video game it's more convenient to put new enemies than things like young Muten, etc... for many reasons that I won't expose unless someone asks for it (I've already extended myself too much). And apart from video games, there are figures. Although untold stories could also lead to the sale of figures (there are even figures of characters with as little charisma as Bacterian), enemies from movies are very profitable to put in video games.

Dragon Ball GT

My opinion about GT is that it came out as it did because Torishima, Kondo, and Takeda (the 3 editors of Toriyama when he did the manga) had no influence on the team that made GT. That three men knew what DB fans like. They were never opposed to humor because gags could make consumers laugh, and even though it was reduced, there were still humorous gags in the manga, even in the adult Goku sagas. However, such gags did not demystify or ridicule characters admired and loved by the audience, such as Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Krilin, Ten, etc. as well as characters that had to be imposing due to the demands of the script (Freezer, Cell, Super Bu).

The humor was centered on characters like the Ginyu force, who was ridiculous as well as threatening and imposing, but the audience didn't dislike them because they were made to feel that way from the beginning, (with the dance), and besides, they were secondary enemies. There was also humor with Bulma (when she blows up the Nappa's Ship, and when she makes comments about "making her dirty things" or has an immature behavior), but Bulma was far from being a mass idol even if she was an important character, and they were not gags that crossed certain lines in the anime either. There are also comic characters like Mr. Satan or Gotenks. Mr. Satan was already created to be a buffoon and not a hero, and Gotenks had an understandable behavior due to his age. The most off-putting thing in the manga was Piccolo playing volleyball, but that falls short of other issues that I'm going to expose now.

In the DBZ filler and in the movies you could already see that the writers had a different mentality than the manga team because they made fillers like this:

-Hysterical Goku in the face of injections (twice, once in the hospital and once in Namek)
-Irresponsible Goku who drops baby Gohan's cart.
-Goku openly saying that a field trip is more important than Gohan's studies (Cooler's first movie)
-Goku demonstrating not to know how to behave in an interview to get his son into a paying school, pretending to say that his favorite hobby is fighting (Broly's first movie).
-Vegeta refusing to wear a pink shirt but finally putting it on because Bulma forces him.
-Vegeta scared by some harmless worms into Bu’s body

And Krilin deserves a separate comment. In the manga, he is not As strong as saiyans or Piccollo but he does His best and has a very decent role within his combat level (taking only the adult Goku sagas, he kills allmost all the saibamen and a Freezer soldier, cuts the tail of the emperor of the universe himself, manages to throw Dodoria off, it was his idea to go to Namek, he gives a lesson to Punter...). The Toei ridicules him as a warrior (in Bojack’s movie, Piccolo leaves the combat because he thinks Krilin is pathetic, and struts to Zangya telling her that even if she is a girl she is not going to cut himself... and she crush him without letting him touching her. A Cooler soldier knocks him out with one blow and in Broly’s second film he suffers the ultimate process of ridicule).

All those moments I mention are much more unpleasant for the generality of the fans than the jokes in the manga.

To be fair, we should mention that while Yamcha is denigrated in the manga, the Toei gives her moments of glory, but I think it's something exceptional: the Toei had little regard for ridiculing characters that were very admired by the fandom.

Why did they do this? My theory is this: Toei writters were disconnected from what the fans wanted, and they didn't know it as well as the Toriyama editors. They saw that the manga had humor, and in their scripts, they tried to put humor into it to keep the essence of the manga, but they didn't know that there was a line that wasn't convenient to cross (like ridiculing certain characters), and since in other manga/anime all characters are totally ridiculed and it works (for example, in Ranma 1/2), Toei's writers were influenced by this, without taking into account that what works in Ranma doesn't have to work in Dragon Ball.

Another point to keep in mind is the sadness factor. The manga has a very optimistic atmosphere, while in the anime there are dramatic fillers (the robot who dies before Gohan, the delinquent orphan children that Gohan meets and don't know what it's like to have a mom and dad... and end up handcuffed before Gohan). This different mentality could have influenced the final death of Piccolo in GT, as well as the end of Goku disappearing.

And of course, when those people got control of the scripts, what happened occurred. Even so, there are a remarkable number of people who don't hate GT (I'm not one of those), and even today they still make a profit from what they did (see Baby Kale and Baby Caulifla), but the audience's descent was such that it stayed in 64 chapters, and they wanted to make Super ignoring that GT has existed.

---

Later, I think I'll explain my opinion about BoG, FnF, DBS, and DBSB. Until then, I'd like to read your opinions about what I have written. Do you agree with me?

[Danfun64]

I'll be honest. When I saw the thread title, my first thought was stuff along the lines of "a level set quality release vs what we got in the 30th anniversary Blu-rays". Then again, seeing that you live in Spain (which of it's five dubs did you grow up with?) I imagine that what concerns you the most on that front is Selectavision's continual use of digital noise reduction.

I never really thought of the idea of movie characters mainly being used to sell video games. Some things are more blatant attempts to sell stuff than others. When it comes to animated material, Episode of Bardock (the one where he sent Super Saiyan), the Super Dragon Ball Heroes anime, and pretty much every version of Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans are probably the most blatant in this regard.

[10gigtriforce]

huh I've never looked at it like this before. And yeah some of the movies line up with the old games. i wouldnt be a bit surprised if they were made to market them like we do here

[ABED]

I'm having a hard time following. For example, Goku saying his favorite hobby is fighting during the interview to get Gohan into a good school is a bad use of humor?

I honestly don't care what "the fans" want. That's not what storytelling is about. Fans shouldn't be pandered to.

[Robo4900]

I'm having a hard time following. For example, Goku saying his favorite hobby is fighting during the interview to get Gohan into a good school is a bad use of humor?

I honestly don't care what "the fans" want. That's not what storytelling is about. Fans shouldn't be pandered to.

Agreed.

After all, pandering to the fans is how we got Star Wars Episode IX, a film so unwaveringly dedicated to pleasing the viewer at all costs, that it just ends up an incoherent mess that second-guesses itself every other scene ("We're brave so we're going to kill off Chewie, but don't worry, he's not really dead, you don't have to be sad" being a particularly grievous example).

Heck, even Toriyama himself, everyone's favourite infallible god of storytelling ( ), has been known to deliberately go against what the fans generally wanted while he was writing the original manga.
Other nerd gods have been known to do this too; Joss Whedon would often reference and debunk fan theories in Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Angel, etc. TVTropes even named the trope that refers to this as "Getting Jossed", after this.

[Goe]

Goku saying his favorite hobby is fighting during the interview to get Gohan into a good school is a bad use of humor?

I think, in general terms, DB fans don’t like seeing Goku doing stupid things once he is an adult. That gag you mention may be not as annoying for fans as GT gags like Goku showing her butt in Loud planet and saying “kiss it”, having an anxiety crisis in Planet Pital because he is afraid of injections or loosing against a scared brat in the infantile Tenkaichi Budokai. It may be that most fans don’t get bothered of that gag from Broly film but deeply dislike GT gags. In any case, that gag show us the difference between manga humor to anime humor. And I think that difference was smaller in Toei films and toei DBZ filler... but in DBGT the difference is huge. Take that example as something that indicates a difference more than a real bad use of humor.

About GT, I think it has lots of bad uses of humor. Some Z gags may not be real bad uses of humor but may indicate the vision of Toei writers that caused GT once they took the total control of the anime series.

I’m only a DB fan with my own preferences that may not be always most of fans preferences, so I can’t say if that gag is an example of bad use of humor or not. I can assure you GT has bad uses of humor because lot of fans didn’t like it because they felt Goku turned into a clown, not only me.

I honestly don't care what "the fans" want. That's not what storytelling is about. Fans shouldn't be pandered to.

Every story in the world, not only DB, has the purpose of result attractive to the public that story is intended. And the autor should take care of that, because if his story is not attractive, he won’t success.

For example, if Toriyama would decide to Goku, Yamcha, Bulma, Oolong and Puar dying under the sun in Pilaf castle, and turn Pilaf, Shu and May in they main characters... it would be a great mistake because fans would be dissapointed, and Toriyama/Bird Studio/Toei workers/Shueisha would earn less money. That proves fans should be pandered at least as some point. I admit, however, some way of going against fans will may be acceptable and even convenient. Foe example, Toriyama said that when fans wrote to him to ask him to not kill Vegeta, he decided to kill him. That decision made DB more shocking, touching and emotional. However, Toriyama resurrected Vegeta to pander fans after all, because he and/or his editor knew killing him for ever would be a mistake.

But if you don’t care about the main subject of this thread, I respect it, but I don’t understand why someone would enter in a threat to say he doesn’t care about what the author is asking.

For example, you created a thread about endings and our feelings about ending. I think entering to that thread and posts “I don’t care about endings or how people feels watching them. The only important thing is the story” is not correct and may annoy you as the author. Please think about that.

[ABED]

There are too many fans with such a wide range of opinions that it's impossible to please them all. So whom should storytellers try to please?

And the autor should take care of that, because if his story is not attractive, he won’t success.

And what attracts an audience? No way to know. We also know that pandering to people can also turn away an audience. Giving people what they want isn't always the right choice. Ideally you want to give them what they didn't know they wanted.

“I don’t care about endings or how people feels watching them. The only important thing is the story”

I have thought about it and I am confused by your point. Endings are part of the story. I swear, I didn't make my original post in bad faith or to be contrarian. I really believe that artists should do what they want because there's no way to know what an audience wants and sometimes they don't know what they want until someone shows it to them. Who the hell knew they wanted Vegeta or Saiyans or Namekians when DB first started? Who the hell knew they wanted DB until they saw it?

[Matches Malone]

If you start listening to fans, you'll eventually end up sitting with them. This is a somewhat popular thing that a coach said and has always stuck with me. When I watch or read something official, I want the writer's vision to be presented, not the fans'. The problem with giving fans what they want is that you usually end up with stories that are limited in what they can accomplish due to the author's elements clashing with the fans'.

In Super for example, characters such as Goku and Vegeta are no longer allowed to develop like before due to fans expecting set tropes in both. Vegeta can't become his own character because fans expect him to have an eternal rivalry with Goku. Goku can't mentally mature due to fans expecting him to have the mentality of a 5 year old. Original ideas are now taking a back seat to "popular" elements. Instead of making an original movie that could've pushed the franchise's stories forward just as the movie's production was, Broly was brought back because according to Toriyama and his editors, "he's popular". GT also suffered from this. There are interviews with the staff that say despite them having stories to tell with the other characters, they decided to stick with Goku and Pan because that's what they believed boys and girls watching the show wanted. Goku being turned into a kid (Gt's biggest mistake) was done so in part because they thought an adult Goku couldn't relate to young viewers. If GT's writers presented their vision for the story instead of what they thought fans wanted, GT would've been received much better, and may have lasted longer than it did. Just like Super, there's massive potential that was untapped in GT thanks to them worrying about how fans would react to things.

When you look at the original manga and its 2 sequels side by side, you can see why listening to fans is the worst thing an author can do.

Every story in the world, not only DB, has the purpose of result attractive to the public that story is intended. And the autor should take care of that, because if his story is not attractive, he won’t success. That proves fans should be pandered at least as some point. I admit, however, some way of going against fans will may be acceptable and even convenient.

Toriyama resurrected Vegeta to pander fans after all, because he and/or his editor knew killing him for ever would be a mistake.

This is a 2 way road. Listening to some fans can results in just as many, if not more, ending up unhappy with the results. By listening to fans, you can also end up missing out on opportunities that would be just as popular, if not more so than what fans wanted. There's also the issue of who to listen to. Do you put out a poll online ? do you look through specific comment sections ?

Vegeta was brought back for one reason, because he was useful in moving the plot forward. That was the answer Toriyama gave when asked why he was brought back. Toriyama said he rarely, if ever, listened to fans while writing the manga, and look at the results. Not only did he end up with an amazing story, he ended up with a successful one.

I don't know who said this, but there's a manga author who said he reads very little manga and doesn't read any fans feedback because he wanted his story to be as pure as possible, he didn't want any outside influences getting in. This may be extreme, but as someone who's thought about writing as a side hobby, I find it very difficult due to everything I come up with ending up similar to something I've watched or read before.

[Grimlock]

So whom should storytellers try to please?

The ones humbly asking for a story. Because once you unfortunately please the ones who just want fights, you'll end up with two tournaments in a row and Movie 15.

[Zinnia]

Oh wow, so another GT hate thread in disguise.
Just like every other season, there are bad and good instances of humor. You focusing solely on the bad shows your stance pretty much.

Meanwhile I can go and point some well done humor from GT as well. For example the Board Game that's in between life-and-death. The Quiz part there had silly questions, with Goku coming up with even sillier answers, fitting his character.

Spoiler:

Para Para brother's dance was also a gag, seemingly popular enough to make it into Xenoverse 2 as a part of Pan's moveset. So I don't see where "all the fans don't like GT humor!!1" you try to say objectively comes from. Western mindset?

GT gags like Goku showing her butt in Loud planet and saying “kiss it”

He did the same to Uub despite being an adult.


Why can't some people understand that Dragon Ball's audience are young boys and girls. Not every piece of humor must be on your scale chart.

[Matches Malone]

Oh wow, so another GT hate thread in disguise.

I don't know how you came to this conclusion considering the topic includes Z's move and a second topic will cover Super. The reason so many people don't like GT, is the same reason many also don't like Super, they're not that good.

[ABED]

So whom should storytellers try to please?

The ones humbly asking for a story. Because once you unfortunately please the ones who just want fights, you'll end up with two tournaments in a row and Movie 15.

DB is about fights. The fights are the story. And the tournaments weren't the result of listening to fans.

[Grimlock]

DB is about fights.

Not an excuse to not have a decent story behind it.

The fights are the story.

With, maybe, the only exception of Freeza vs Goku in Freeza saga, they really aren't.

And the tournaments weren't the result of listening to fans.

If they aren't to please those who just want endless fights, then what are them?

[Zinnia]

I don't know how you came to this conclusion considering the topic includes Z's move and a second topic will cover Super.

Oh by this sentence alright:

and they wanted to make Super ignoring that GT has existed.

Considering that Super has many references to DBGT across it's entire run in both Anime and Toyotaro's Manga, I wouldn't say they want to "ignore that GT existed". Why is that so? It brings profit.

Broly's Ikari form is loosely based on SS4 and it was his main selling point. DBHeroes anime started advertising itself from the matchup SSB vs SS4.

DBS isn't even set in the period to replace GT, so ignoring that ever existed is such a false thing to say.

[Matches Malone]

DBS isn't even set in the period to replace GT, so ignoring that ever existed is such a false thing to say.

It doesn't have to be in the same period to ignore it, as there have been too many elements introduced in Super that don't line up with GT. The only way to line them up is to either reboot GT entirely or have Super end with everything being reset to how they were before BOG.

[ABED]

DB is about fights.

Not an excuse to not have a decent story behind it.

The fights are the story.

With, maybe, the only exception of Freeza vs Goku in Freeza saga, they really aren't.

And the tournaments weren't the result of listening to fans.

If they aren't to please those who just want endless fights, then what are them?

I don't know what you're looking for when you say story as if the fight and the story are separable. The fights are absolutely the story. Every arc is leading towards some climactic battle.
I find your question odd considering DB is a battle manga. The battles are the point. The Freeza fight was also incredibly long? Was that just to appease fans? Likely it was to make the fight suitably climactic given who Freeza was built up as being (i.e. the ultimate big bad)

[Matches Malone]

I don't know what you're looking for when you say story as if the fight and the story are separable.

They're not, but Super has separated them. In the TOP for example, Goku and friends are fighting random characters with 0 backstories or personalities, just to get to the next set of random nobodies. There's no story there, it's just fights. In the 22nd Tenkaichi for example, Goku is fighting a character who has a backstory, who has goals, and who has an outlook on life. What makes Goku's fight with Tien different from what we got in the TOP is that he's fighting a well written character that allows the viewer to care about both, and understand where they're coming from. We don't get any of that in the TOP, even the main antagonist has nothing going for him until the last 2 episodes.

[Tai Lung]

Oh wow, so another GT hate thread in disguise.
Just like every other season, there are bad and good instances of humor. You focusing solely on the bad shows your stance pretty much.

Meanwhile I can go and point some well done humor from GT as well. For example the Board Game that's in between life-and-death. The Quiz part there had silly questions, with Goku coming up with even sillier answers, fitting his character.

Spoiler:

Para Para brother's dance was also a gag, seemingly popular enough to make it into Xenoverse 2 as a part of Pan's moveset. So I don't see where "all the fans don't like GT humor!!1" you try to say objectively comes from. Western mindset?

GT gags like Goku showing her butt in Loud planet and saying “kiss it”

He did the same to Uub despite being an adult.


Why can't some people understand that Dragon Ball's audience are young boys and girls. Not every piece of humor must be on your scale chart.

while humor is subjective something I agree with that ... the dolltaki scenes are bad and really the worst in the series

[SupremeKai25]

Expecting the writers to flesh-out 70 characters is ridiculous. The major antagonists were developed just fine. Caulifla, Kale, Kefla, Cabba, Hit, Frost, Toppo, and Ribrianne were all noteworthy opponents with defining techniques and personalities. As for Jiren, the mystery surrounding his strength and intentions were a major aspect of the ToP arc. I don't see why everything about him should've been explained from the beginning.

[Matches Malone]

Expecting the writers to flesh-out 70 characters is ridiculous.

I don't see why everything about him should've been explained from the beginning.

Why bother including that many if you're just going to waste them ? wouldn't it have been more productive to include less characters, but have them be better developed ?

I'm not saying they should've told us everything from the start, but we should've found out sooner. Imagine if everything about Zamasu and Black was held off until the very last episode or 2, fans would've stopped caring about them. It's even worse for Jiren because he had 0 personality, he was just a punching machine.