DB is not better than DBZ

[Matches Malone]

Goku vs. Piccolo at the 23rd TB says otherwise.

The entire 23rd Tenkaichi was actually Z's staff first arc, not the Saiyan arc, so believing that DB's fights are all inferior to Z's doesn't make sense at all.

[MechaTrunks]

I don't agree at all that the fights were better in DBZ with the exception of the first fight against Vegeta.

Nappa vs Goku alone is already much deeper than any pre-Z fight.
Of course, a fight has various aspects that make it interesting: what you're fighting for, who you're fighting against and the fighting choreography as well.
In all those aspects DB had pretty nice fights as well but they lacked the depth introduced in Z.
The Z part of the manga was simply much better written.

Goku vs. Piccolo at the 23rd TB says otherwise.

One of the worst fights in the manga in my opinion. Full of useless gimmicks that would never be seen again in the series and would be rapidly forgotten by most of the fans, and the most incoherent when it came to the PL each fighter had at any given moment.

And as a storytelling device, backstory is only so interesting. It's not that necessary to make things interesting.

True, but 23rd Budokay lacked everything that makes a story interesting. If it wasn't because of the work done in previous sagas it would have nothing going for it.

The fight between Goku and Piccolo was great without having power levels bearing over it. Without any sort of rigid, near-mathematical way to tell who would win a fight before it even started, it made it fun to watch.

I don't think anyone can say that the fight vs Piccolo is less rigid than the fight against Vegeta, despite the one with Vegeta already being power level based.
The fight against Vegeta, in fact, has a ton of unexpected turns and innovative scenarios never seen before in the series (and not possible without the power level rules).

On the other hand, in the fight against Piccolo there's no sense of progression until they tell you they are almost depleted of energy, and even then the other z-warrios and Kami are left on the side with no apparent reason just because Goku is the main and he has to win.

Both characters are dead set on standing their ground no matter what, and are shown to be fairly matched. As the fight went on and both got more worn out, it was still up in the air who would win. Who would have the final blow? Who would finally give in? How far can they really go? Those are the kind of questions I can imagine a 1st time viewer having when watching. Genuinely suspenseful.

I'm not saying that Piccolo vs Goku is a BAD fight, it had it's qualities as well (Piccolo was a nice antagonist and the fight had it's fair share of turns), but here's the thing, I never buyed it even the first time I saw it as a kid.
Seeing Kami blocking one of Piccolo's fists but then unable to help when Piccolo was completely exhausted.
Goku with a hole in his chest defeating that Piccolo just by falling on him from the sky.
The fact that Goku could fly at enough speed to KO Piccolo but he wasted energy with "foot kamehames" during the whole fight.
And all the one-time Gimmicks that may be interesting the first time you read it, but they inevitably feel really cheap in the whole context of the series.

King Piccolo vs Goku was much better in my opinion. Equally high stackes, very similar opponents, better fighting choreography, it's fair share of plot-twists (comparable to that of the 23rd budokay fight) and none of the bullshit.

To me it's more fun to watch Goku have real tough battle, winning by the slimmest of margins, than it was to say, watch one sided beatdowns like Buu pummeling Dabura, Gohan and Supreme Kai into the dirt.

Well, most of the times an even fight is more interesting than a stomp, but that is not related with the BP rules at all.
I mean, there were a lot of stomps in pre-Z as well (Goku vs General sylver, Goku vs 2 of Piccolo's monsters, Ten vs Tao, Goku vs Tao round 2 -and Goku vs Tao round 1 in Tao's favor-, etc.), it's just that when comparing similar kinds of fights the ones in Z are simply better because they're much deeper and better written.

I'm not saying one can't enjoy the pre-Z fights (I insist that they're good and better than most fights in other mangas just because of how well Toriyama could draw any complex choreography and make it look simple to understand) but there's a reason why once Toriyama matured his style with the PL rules he never looked back.

The entire 23rd Tenkaichi was actually Z's staff first arc, not the Saiyan arc, so believing that DB's fights are all inferior to Z's doesn't make sense at all.

I completely disagree. Yes, the tone was more serious (comparable to Z) but the writting was still clearly pre-DBZ. But in terms of quality and tone, King Piccolo's saga is more Z than the 23rd Budokay by far.

Regards!

[MyVisionity]

Goku vs. Piccolo at the 23rd TB says otherwise.

The entire 23rd Tenkaichi was actually Z's staff first arc, not the Saiyan arc, so believing that DB's fights are all inferior to Z's doesn't make sense at all.

Except that it does make sense, for the reasons you just stated.

Goku versus Piccolo was essentially a "Z-fight".

[Matches Malone]

Goku versus Piccolo was essentially a "Z-fight".

This is what I'm saying, Goku vs Piccolo is a Z fight, so it doesn't make sense to say DB doesn't have fights as epic as Z's when this is basically one of them.

[MyVisionity]

Goku versus Piccolo was essentially a "Z-fight".

This is what I'm saying, Goku vs Piccolo is a Z fight, so it doesn't make sense to say DB doesn't have fights as epic as Z's when this is basically one of them.

I'm saying that Goku versus Piccolo is the exception. So that you can't really include it with "DB-fights" when comparing DB to DBZ because it's a "Z-fight".

[TheGodfather93]

I disagree. I've always liked DB more than Z.

Z, in my opinion, started going downhill after Freeza, and it never picked up after that. The Saiyan and Freeza arcs were great, but the Cell arc was a clusterfuck of plot inconsistencies, retcons, and characters acting beyond retarded. The Boo arc, on the other hand, was an overly long mess that was way more complicated than it needed to be. Both Cell and Boo had some epic moments, but looking back on the arcs as a whole from an adult perspective, I just can't ignore all the stupid shit that happened in them.

DB, on the other hand, was consistently good or great throughout, and its only real moment of bullshit was the magic water that made Goku strong enough to fight King Piccolo. Kid Goku was a far more likable and endearing protagonist than his adult self; the side characters may not have been the heroes, but they got more moments to shine; the plot was more coherent and fit together nicely; and the fighting as a whole was more captivating and interesting. Instead of flurries of punches and kicks that you can barely see, with some ki blasts on the side, people fought using actual martial arts. Ki blasts and the like didn't become a regular feature of fighting until the 23rd Budokai.

Power escalation also happened in a more realistic and compelling way in DB. Goku started off not being able to move a giant rock, but by the time he fought King Piccolo, he was strong enough to wipe out whole cities with a ki blast. In Z, everyone in the main cast was capable of destroying planets by the end of the Freeza arc, so later fights that featured very little environmental destruction - despite the characters themselves becoming hundreds of times stronger - didn't do a good job of matching that scale. We were told that the characters got stronger, but we weren't really shown it.

Honestly, it sounds like the dub you watched was a pretty crappy one. If you care enough about giving DB another shot, maybe check out the Japanese dub. Or you can just read the manga.

[Cure Dragon 255]

For some reason this is the third time I have heard someone from Germany or who saw the German dub didnt like DB. It must be something wrong with that dub.

[ABED]

Goku versus Piccolo was essentially a "Z-fight".

You don't get to claim that just to prove your point. It happened in DB, ergo it's not a DBZ fight.

True, but 23rd Budokay lacked everything that makes a story interesting. If it wasn't because of the work done in previous sagas it would have nothing going for it.

Pointing out that the 23rd TB was the payoff to what came before is not a negative at all. You act like it's easy to create an emotionally satisfying payoff.

I'm curious what you think "makes a story interesting". It's a tournament so there are fun unique techniques but it's also brutal, violent, and bloody. It tops most fights in DBZ. Despite your claim to the contrary, there is a great sense of progression. It starts off with them testing each other and builds in intensity as it goes along. Piccolo turns giant and while it is a gimmick it shows how powerful Piccolo is that he loses none of his speed at that size, but also shows Goku's cunning to use Piccolo's size against him.

And you keep saying the fights in DB are deeper, but what does that mean?

Goku with a hole in his chest defeating that Piccolo just by falling on him from the sky.

He didn't fall on him, he built up speed and rammed into him, probably breaking a few of Piccolo's ribs. Neither Goku vs. Nappa or Freeza are masterpieces. The fight against Nappa was enjoyable because it was cathartic to see Goku beat the shit out of the guy who murdered his friends, but not a masterpiece. Then the Freeza fight is entirely too long.

Power levels are BS. These are stories, not a D and D game. They don't make any sense and don't have to. They were introduced and subverted right away.

[Banduck]

Z, in my opinion, started going downhill after Freeza, and it never picked up after that. The Saiyan and Freeza arcs were great, but the Cell arc was a clusterfuck of plot inconsistencies, retcons, and characters acting beyond retarded.

I still think, even as an adult, that the Cell arc is brilliant. I am aware of what happened "behind the scenes", but I don't care as long as the result is good. And in my opinion, it is.
Yes some characters made stupid decisions, but I don't think any of them were "out-of-character-stupid"

Honestly, it sounds like the dub you watched was a pretty crappy one. If you care enough about giving DB another shot, maybe check out the Japanese dub. Or you can just read the manga.

For some reason this is the third time I have heard someone from Germany or who saw the German dub didnt like DB. It must be something wrong with that dub.

Yeah, there were a few good voice actors (like Goku & Roshi), but unfortunately the voice actors of Piccolo and Tien were very bad, and that probably hurt the most important part of DB.
I will definitely watch DB again with my girlfriend. She has never seen it before and that will maybe change my perspective on some things.

[Aim]

Yes, but there is a difference. In DBZ the side characters lost too, but at least they had a good fight. Tien vs Drum was anything but a good fight, and he didn't fight Piccolo at all.
Muten Roshi vs Piccolo was good though, probably the best moment from DB.

They barely had a fight at all, they all lost their battles, even quicker in later DB(Z). At least in DB they had to use techniques to try make up for their lack of strength.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I probably just had too high expectations. The first half was about as expected, and I liked it (except muscle tower), but from the Piccolo arc on I couldn't really enjoy it anymore because I kept expecting "Okay, when will it get better than DBZ?" and I expected the side characters to be (almost) as strong as Goku.
I had the same problem with Inception and its huge hype.

Someday I'll definitely watch it again with my gf, I think I'll enjoy it more then.

Could just be nostalgia goggles.

“Okay, when will it get better than DBZ?”, what exactly makes it better? The side characters are just as useless in DB than Z, you argue Bulma was more useful, how? She did exactly what she did back in the early DB episodes.

Tenshinhan is a good character and had good development. Yamcha when he was first introduced was full of gags.

Don’t get me started on dubs, it’s not possible to objectively compare the two parts of DB if you’ve only seen them in dub.

[Draconic]

I think saying that Z's fights are deeper than the original's is a fucking joke. There are great fights in Z and the majority are the ones pre-Cell arc, basically pre-Super Saiyan.

Jackie Chun vs Goku is an incredible fight, full of twists and turns, storywise it has everything on the line. The drama is incredibly high: on one hand you have Goku, the main character, who you want to win, who you root and cheer for... but on the other you have Jackie Chun, who's main reason for fighting if to teach Goku the ultimate lesson, one that will guide him troughout his ENTIRE development further...

Goku vs Tao Pai Pai, the most Z-like fight (where a fighter is so greatly outmatched by another that there's nothing his opponent can do) actually has a sense of desperation, of struggle. Goku doesn't just throw everything he has in the first minute, Tao tanks it then one-shots him. There is a progression to the struggle and it makes the situation escalate in a much more fulfilling way than, say, when Cell does it to basically everybody.

Tenshinhan vs Jackie Chun, again, an amazing fight, with compelling drama. Chun gives us a sense of familiarity, with a goal we already understoond from the last tournament. Both characters get arcs and development... and they get them trough their fighting, trough countering eachothers techniques and coming to understand where the other comes from by seeing who they are as martial artists. Beautiful blend of action and drama.

Tenshinhan vs Goku is basically these last two tournament fights I mentioned turned up to 11. Now you're not rooting for Goku just because he's the main character and needing to learn from this experience, but because you like his fairly villianous opponent as well (the guy brutalizes Yamcha, remember) and want to change his ways. Tenshinhan's stoic nature contrats with Goku's care free attitude and in the end neither characters is proven wrong or weaker. The fight is for all intents and purposes a tie, but the genious way it ends with split-second decision ties everything togheter. Goku lost, but not the fight, the match. Tenshinhan won, but not the fight, his own path. It's beautiful.

Then Piccolo Daimao arrives and it's again, basically Tao turned up to 11. Every character struggles with him in a compelling, escalating way and loses even BEFORE the guy gets his youth back. Goku goes training with Korin, as he did for Tao, but even then it's barely enough to pull out the win. What makes it better than the Tao fight, though and truly a climactic battle, is the fact that there are moments where you feel that Goku can pull out the win... yet doesn't. He struggles, wins ground bit by bit and... is felled and left at the Demon King's mercy... which leaves the guy vulnerable and the win is pulled of in the most satisfying of manners.

Goku vs Piccolo Jr doesn't need any explaining. It's the best fight out of the original run of the manga, bar none, as the 23rd Tournament is the perfect closing chapter for EVERY character up to that point. An unbelievably well written story.

Now for Z...
Goku and Piccolo vs Raditz is amazing. It's structure is much more like a DB fight than the OP would have you think. There's twists and turns, strategies being implemented, techniques perfected. As one of those "struggle against an opponent who seems invincible"-type fights is probably the best in the series up to this point.

Nappa vs everybody is one of the worst. Nappa tanks everything, nothing changes for him. He's the same at the beginning as he is at the end, after basically everybody threw all they had at him. The good guys die left and right while feeling useless and then Nappa loses in a second against Goku. Boring as shit. No progression, no escalation of the drama. Just wasted time. Nappa could have basically killed everyone in a minute at the beginning and NOTHING would change about the arc one way or the other.

Goku vs Vegeta is terrific though. It's basically Goku vs Piccolo but other characters can join in now, so new interesting strategies, developments, twists and turns can take place. And they do and it's amazing and there's no point to elaborate further, everyone knows this is a high point for the series.

Aaaaand then Namek... Zarbon beats Vegeta, Vegeta beats Zarbon. Reccome beats everybody, Goku beats Recoome.
The whole Ginyu body swapping bit is great, but I wouldn't call that a fight... moving on,
Frieza beats Vegeta, Piccolo beats Frieza, Frieza beats Piccolo, Frieza beats everybody...

Goku vs Frieza is amazing. Same principle as the Piccolo Daimao fight, a constant struggle, you always feel that victory is close only to be snatched at the every turn, except this time... for real. Frieza wins... no magical penetrate! attack here... Then Goku goes Super Saiyan and while the fight loses steam at this point, the drama becomes "will Goku defeat Frieza in time before the guys becomes and immortal and the planet explodes?" so it's excusable why the focus is not put so much on the actual fighting. Goku is more powerful than Frieza, we know that, but we also saw Frieza already take everything thrown at him... so we're not sure what's going to happen even so. Basically base Goku vs Frieza = Great drama, great fighting while SSJ Goku vs Frieza = Great drama, so-so fighting.

Then Trunks beats Frieza
Then Goku defeats Trunks
Then the Androids defeat Goku
Then Vegeta defeats the Androids
But the other Androids defeat Vegeta
Then Piccolo beats Cell

Then Piccolo vs 17 which is pretty bad. Looks cool, most of the time, so there are great techniques on display there, but there's nothing really compelling about it. No fighter wins any ground so... what's the point again? Basically filler.

But then Cell beats Piccolo
But then 16 beats Cell
But then Cell beats 16
Then Vegeta beats Cell
Then Cell beats Vegeta

Goku vs Cell is interesting... it's much more of a struggle but I wouldn't call it anywhere near as good as the other fights I mentioned before. There's no twists, no turns, no strategies, except the IT Kamehamehame, which by all accounts should count as Goku's win, but we are of course introduced to basically infinite regeneration, which kills any sense of drama from this point forward. Weird fight. It's good, fine, at least I see the point in this one... I mean, it's whole point is to seem like one of those great climactic fights but not to be, so it achieves that. It's ok.

Then Gohan beats Cell
But then Cell beats Gohan
The Kamehameha struggle in the end is not a fight so moving on...

Videl beats Spopovich
But now Spopovich beats Videl
Then Vegeta beats Pui Pui
Then Goku beats Yakon
Then Dabura beats Gohan
Then Buu beats Dabura
Then Vegeta "beats" Goku
Buu beats Vegeta
BUUUUT Goku beats Buu
But Buu is hacks so Gotenks has to beat Buu
But Gotenks is a dumbass so Gohan has to beat Buu now
But Gohan is a dumbass so Vegetto has to beat Buu now
But Vegetto has to save everybody so Goku and Vegeta have to beat Buu

THAT'S 26 FIGHTS! No depth, no nothing. Just A > B so A beats B. No struggle, no escalation, nothing. And most of these are MAJOR fights. There are minor fights in the original series with better writting than those, especially during the tournaments, like Piccolo vs Krillin, Goku vs Tenshinhan part 2, Muten Roshi vs Piccolo Daimao... even the gag fights in the 21st tournament are written with more care than most of those, beyond just making them cool looking.

[MasenkoHA]

Goku versus Piccolo was essentially a "Z-fight".

This is what I'm saying, Goku vs Piccolo is a Z fight, so it doesn't make sense to say DB doesn't have fights as epic as Z's when this is basically one of them.

I'm saying that Goku versus Piccolo is the exception. So that you can't really include it with "DB-fights" when comparing DB to DBZ because it's a "Z-fight".

It’s part of Dragon Ball so it counts as a Dragon Ball fight regardless if it’s the most “Z-like” and even then it’s really just the blood and Goku being all grown up and the perceptive many of us had imposed on us by being introduced to Z first.

Goku vs Junior is also one of the most brutal fights in all of Dragon Ball. Period. Including Z. I’d argue only MAYBE Goku vs Vegeta and Goku vs Freeza comes anywhere close to the sheer brutality.


Tao Pei Pei was really when Toriyama got the Dragon Ball style of action down that of course followed through all the way to Z.

[MechaTrunks]

Except that it does make sense, for the reasons you just stated.

Goku versus Piccolo was essentially a "Z-fight".

This is what I'm saying, Goku vs Piccolo is a Z fight, so it doesn't make sense to say DB doesn't have fights as epic as Z's when this is basically one of them.

And why is Goku vs Piccolo a Z-fight more than Kid Goku vs King Piccolo which in fact, was much closer to a true Z-fight than anything in the 23rd Budokay?

What defines a z-fight in your opinion? Because this, I can't see it.

The Saiyan and Freeza arcs were great, but the Cell arc was a clusterfuck of plot inconsistencies, retcons, and characters acting beyond retarded.

Couldn't disagree more with that. The Cell saga is the best written DB arc, even if it went with a much different approach -more plot-heavy and less action-focused coupled with a more serious tone-.
Which culsterfuck of plot inconsistencies are you speaking about? The manga is flawles in that sense, you can perfectly pinpoint the points where the timeline changed and it's a much more complex time-paradox than terminator ever attempted to do, resolved much more coherently and closing all the incognites.

Pointing out that the 23rd TB was the payoff to what came before is not a negative at all. You act like it's easy to create an emotionally satisfying payoff.

The payoff for anything before the 23rd TB was Goku killing Piccolo and ressurrecting the Dragon at Kami's palace, that's where the King Piccolo saga concludes.
Piccolo Jr. could have been a good idea, but not in a tournament setting with no time to develop the character at all. Yes, Piccolo was the most charismatic villian the series had at that point, but he was more a reincarnation than a son in the beginning and it wasn't until later that Toriyama was able to develop his character beyond his father's.

I think saying that Z's fights are deeper than the original's is a fucking joke. There are great fights in Z and the majority are the ones pre-Cell arc, basically pre-Super Saiyan.

The difference in writting alone makes any Z fight deeper than any non-Z fight.

Goku vs Piccolo Jr doesn't need any explaining. It's the best fight out of the original run of the manga, bar none, as the 23rd Tournament is the perfect closing chapter for EVERY character up to that point. An unbelievably well written story.

Perfect closing chapter for who? Only Goku got a "proper" ending going with Chi Chi, but there were 10s of times to do that much better outside of a tournament thing.
Goku vs Piccolo Jr doesn't even have a good choreography like King Piccolo vs Kid Goku and it was gimmick after gimmick + all sorts of inconsistencies.

Nappa vs everybody is one of the worst. Nappa tanks everything, nothing changes for him. He's the same at the beginning as he is at the end, after basically everybody threw all they had at him. The good guys die left and right while feeling useless and then Nappa loses in a second against Goku. Boring as shit. No progression, no escalation of the drama. Just wasted time. Nappa could have basically killed everyone in a minute at the beginning and NOTHING would change about the arc one way or the other.

A good fight is not the same as an epic fight.
Of course, any final battle of any saga will be more epic than Goku vs Nappa but the way you describe the fight makes me think you didn't understand the depth of Toriyama's writting.
That fight is a piece of art (the Goku vs Nappa one, Nappa vs z-warriors is a simple stomp with the z-warriors' objective being not defeating Nappa but stalling him enough for Goku to arrive) for how it introduces not only Goku's strengths but also his weaknesses.

Deep doesn't mean "funny" or "with lots of drama", it means deep.


Regards!

[Matches Malone]

Why is Goku vs Piccolo a Z-fight more than Kid Goku vs King Piccolo which in fact, was much closer to a true Z-fight than anything in the 23rd Budokay?

What defines a z-fight in your opinion?

I'm just using it as an example, personally, I think the 22nd Tournament and after is more or less the same thing in terms of the quality of fights. Be that Kid Goku vs King Piccolo, Roshi and Kid Goku vs Tien, etc.

A Z fight is like Pizza, you can't define what makes it work, but you'll know when you eat it.

[TheGodfather93]

Couldn't disagree more with that. The Cell saga is the best written DB arc, even if it went with a much different approach -more plot-heavy and less action-focused coupled with a more serious tone-.
Which culsterfuck of plot inconsistencies are you speaking about? The manga is flawles in that sense, you can perfectly pinpoint the points where the timeline changed and it's a much more complex time-paradox than terminator ever attempted to do, resolved much more coherently and closing all the incognites.

There's no reason whatsoever that things should be as shit as they are in the future timeline. Why haven't Bulma and her father made a spaceship to go to Namek and use their Dragon Balls? Why hasn't King Kai told anyone the location of New Namek? Why haven't Goku, Piccolo or Kami told Gohan and Trunks about the ROSAT, or how to train more efficiently? How is Gohan, who has immense potential, so weak after almost two decades of constant training and fighting, that he gets his ass beat by a weaker version of Android 17 who's only using 50% of his strength?

Putting all that aside, after Trunks travelled to the past and told everyone about the androids, the entire issue could've been resolved then and there if our "heroes" actually decided to do the rational thing and use the Dragon Balls or Baba to find Dr Gero's location, and then go and stop him before he can finish building his killer robots that would, in another timeline, commit genocide and rule over the Earth as tyrants. Before you say it'd be out of character for them to kill him, they wouldn't have to kill him. They could just destroy all his research and warn him to stop what he's doing, or get him arrested. But no, that'd require too much common sense. Instead, Goku, Piccolo and Tenshinhan decided to risk the lives of millions of innocent people across the planet, including their own friends and families, just because they wanted to test their strength against the androids.

Fast-forward a bit to Cell's introduction, where he reveals his entire origin story and future plans to Piccolo in a brilliant piece of writing that removes any potential intrigue that would've benefited the story. Fast-forward a bit farther to when Semi-Perfect Cell is running rampant and Vegeta decides to let him absorb 18. Trunks could've easily swooped in and vaporised Cell with no difficulty whatsoever, but didn't. He also could've flown down and wiped out 18 so Cell couldn't absorb her. It's not like he had any love for 18 at that point; as far as he was concerned, she was just another version of one of the people who made his life a living hell. Then there's Krillin and his refusal to use the remote to shut down 18. All of this is yet more brilliant writing that is in no way contrived, no sirree.

Fast-forward some more to the Cell Games, where Gohan suddenly decides that he's a pacifist and doesn't want to fight anymore. Because it's not like he willingly fought Freeza and Freeza's soldiers on an alien planet in order to save his friends. It's not like he chose to train to fight the androids with Goku and Piccolo. That's not out of character at all.

[MyVisionity]

Goku versus Piccolo was essentially a "Z-fight".

You don't get to claim that just to prove your point. It happened in DB, ergo it's not a DBZ fight.

It's a legitimate claim. Goku versus Piccolo is the final fight of the series which occurred after the production transitions for DBZ began. It's an exception. The fact that it happens in DB and not DBZ means little. That argument is one that I would find more troubling, honestly.

[ABED]

It's not a legit claim. It is an objectively proveable statement to say the fight happened in Dragon Ball.

It's an exception? Well how convenient.

The payoff for anything before the 23rd TB was Goku killing Piccolo and ressurrecting the Dragon at Kami's palace, that's where the King Piccolo saga concludes.
Piccolo Jr. could have been a good idea, but not in a tournament setting with no time to develop the character at all. Yes, Piccolo was the most charismatic villian the series had at that point, but he was more a reincarnation than a son in the beginning and it wasn't until later that Toriyama was able to develop his character beyond his father's.

It was the payoff of Goku's journey to win the Tenkaichi Budokai which was his goal since the second arc of the series. There was plenty of time to develop Piccolo. He is in fact a reincarnation of his father. Starting there gives him a place to go. That's what makes it a development. He starts one way and changes over time.

[MyVisionity]

It's not a legit claim. It is an objectively proveable statement to say the fight happened in Dragon Ball.

It's an exception? Well how convenient.

It's about as legitimate and objective a claim as yours.

To say that the fight happened in DB and not DBZ isn't much of an argument.

It's not a convenience to call it an exception, it's just ordinary logic.

[ABED]

It's not a legit claim. It is an objectively proveable statement to say the fight happened in Dragon Ball.

It's an exception? Well how convenient.

It's about as legitimate and objective a claim as yours.

To say that the fight happened in DB and not DBZ isn't much of an argument.

It's not a convenience to call it an exception, it's just ordinary logic.

It's not. It's baffling you would claim that. Goku vs. Piccolo happened in DB. That's not arbitrary, it's a simple statement of fact, not opinion. You're claiming Goku vs. Piccolo might as well have happened in DBZ which is an opinion.

[MyVisionity]

It's not. It's baffling you would claim that. Goku vs. Piccolo happened in DB. That's not arbitrary, it's a simple statement of fact, not opinion. You're claiming Goku vs. Piccolo might as well have happened in DBZ which is an opinion.

Your statement is only a fact in the strictest sense. It's only slightly more objective than mine.

My claim is not simply an opinion, it's a factually-based opinion. The changes in production and the intent of these changes are known. The results are fairly easy to see in the episodes themselves. Particularly when compared to the fights that came before and the fights that come afterward.