Which character and/or plotline in the franchise is the biggest waste of potential?

[LoganForkHands73]

I'm starting to think that the multiverse might've always been one of those things that inherently becomes less interesting the more it's explored. The way Beerus describes it in BoG is so tantalisingly vague and has such broad connotations that people went wild speculating about it and it became hard to live up to those expectations. For many I suppose it was disappointing that most of the other universes are little more than just these other places with singular gimmicks that could easily be condensed down to planets or galaxies rather than whole other universes (i.e. Ribrianne and the Maidens being from a love-crazy planet, Nigrissi being from a high-tech mechanised world etc). However, I think that this might've been the better approach than an alternative like Dragon Ball Multiverse where all the other universes are just alternate versions of events from the main series.

[ABED]

What do you mean by dragon all’s corpse not dragon ball?

I’m pretty much in full agreement with Logan

[FoolsGil]

What do you mean by dragon all’s corpse not dragon ball?

This is Dragonball's corpse. Not Dragonball. Not Dragonball Super. Dragonball's Corpse. The story beats are always the same. The middle is always the same, and It always ends the same. So when you say things querying "Well what's the point if there's nothing new." There's been nothing new since it's been back on the air. At least with space we wouldn't have this new idea of all these other universes and watch as absolutely nothing is done with it. We expect nothing from Space, it's a perfect place to bring in new fighters, or send Goku out to fight them. You bring in Multiverses when you actually got lore you want to do.

Look I'm not trying to step on anyone's feelings on plotlines. If you feel that its about fights and characters and not story, or you feel that there is no way Toei or Toriyama could make a satisfying story involving the multiverse, then fine. But don't argue with me, on a topic titled 'most wasted plotlines potential' and let writing inadequacy be your argument. You can get fighters out of space. You could get fighters from the demon realm, you could fighters from Otherworld and/or heaven, you can get fighters from the far future, things the show have done before and is great and okay because we don't expect much. It is Dragonball after all.. But You bring in multiverses when you have a story to tell. Toei wanted the viewer to envision Planet Sadala from U6. Toei wanted the viewer to envision what kinds of secrets and magical items that other universes have, and secret allies, and secret villains that are just as strong if not stronger than Goku. And to not follow up, on damn anything, is a waste of everyone's time.

[ABED]

What do you mean by dragon all’s corpse not dragon ball?

This is Dragonball's corpse. Not Dragonball. Not Dragonball Super. Dragonball's Corpse. The story beats are always the same. The middle is always the same, and It always ends the same. So when you say things querying "Well what's the point if there's nothing new." There's been nothing new since it's been back on the air. At least with space we wouldn't have this new idea of all these other universes and watch as absolutely nothing is done with it. We expect nothing from Space, it's a perfect place to bring in new fighters, or send Goku out to fight them. You bring in Multiverses when you actually got lore you want to do.

Look I'm not trying to step on anyone's feelings on plotlines. If you feel that its about fights and characters and not story, or you feel that there is no way Toei or Toriyama could make a satisfying story involving the multiverse, then fine. But don't argue with me, on a topic titled 'most wasted plotlines potential' and let writing inadequacy be your argument. You can get fighters out of space. You could get fighters from the demon realm, you could fighters from Otherworld and/or heaven, you can get fighters from the far future, things the show have done before and is great and okay because we don't expect much. It is Dragonball after all.. But You bring in multiverses when you have a story to tell. Toei wanted the viewer to envision Planet Sadala from U6. Toei wanted the viewer to envision what kinds of secrets and magical items that other universes have, and secret allies, and secret villains that are just as strong if not stronger than Goku. And to not follow up, on damn anything, is a waste of everyone's time.

First, characters are story. Second, we have gone to space and other world to see new characters. And third, I still don’t know what you meant by the db’s corpse comment

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

After thinking on it, I'd have to say it's Chi-Chi, no question. A talented martial artist who, had she had a strong desire to continue her training, could have been the strongest human on Earth (that's right, strong than Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Yamcha). I think there could be a great what-if having Chi-Chi going to Kami's lookout with the others to train for the battle against the Saiyans, having her survive along with Krillin and Gohan. Then you could have her go to Namek with the others for real (not like in the filler where it's played for laughs).Frieza could murder Chi-Chi instead of Krillin (who had already died against King Piccolo, so we had already seen a vengeful Goku avenge Krillin), showing how much Goku does care about her and setting off his Super Saiyan transformation. I definitely think there's a great version of events with Chi-Chi as an integral/reserve Z Fighter and not just as an worrying mom (that's not a dismissal of her character btw. I'm not one of the fans who hates Chi-Chi). After all, Chi-Chi's blood is as much of a reason as Goku's why Gohan and Goten are so powerful. I think Gohan's rage bursts are more attributable to Chi-Chi than even Goku, as they're quite similar to when she would get scared or angry as a child and end up hurting someone.

[Soppa Saia People]

there's a iconic shida cut. so dang good.

[UI Peter]

Gohan goes from crybaby to someone brave and capable.

What is there to really do with the multiverse and outer space? What would happen there that we fundamentally didn't see before?

Gohan's character went basically nowhere after the Cell Games.

And what's the point of introducing a multiverse if you aren't gonna explore them? Its a pointless concept if you aren't.

He became the scholar he ultimately wanted to be. That's not nowhere.

The point of the multiverse is to say that Goku is not done yet. There are more mountains to climb. We don't need to see him explore them. It's simply to express the theme of the series.

At least with space we wouldn't have this new idea of all these other universes and watch as absolutely nothing is done with it. We expect nothing from Space, it's a perfect place to bring in new fighters, or send Goku out to fight them. You bring in Multiverses when you actually got lore you want to do.

We did get new fighters from space - The Saiyans and Freeza's empire.

And again with the damn lore. If we want new characters and can find them via the multiverse, fine, but if this is an exercise in world building, hell no. Characters and the fights are the draw, not exposition.

- Kid Gohan never expressed any strong desire for scholarhood (it was mostly something Chi-Chi forced on him), even in the Buu saga it wasn't potrayed as a strong dream for him. The "scholar" thing is nothing than an excuse for Toriyama to write Gohan out of the spotlight, and him retiring into scholarship didn't come with any actual character development at all, nor does it really benefit him & the story as a whole in any real way.

- "The point of the multiverse is to say that Goku is not done yet. There are more mountains to climb"

And wouldn't it make sense for Goku to, you know, actively explore those "mountains" in those other universes in order to keep advancing as a fighter? Its makes zero sense not to.

"We don't need to see him explore them"

Yes you do, otherwise establishing a multiverse in DB is completely pointless and using it for that "theme" would fall completely flat. Either way, said "theme" was completely ruined by the ToP arc (especially the manga version) when it revealed that those universes consist almost entirely of irrelevant fodder fighters smh.


No offense, but you sound like the type of DB fan that goes out of their way to defend/rationalize the franchise's blatantly bad writing decisions in your post.

[ABED]

And wouldn't it make sense for Goku to, you know, actively explore those "mountains" in those other universes in order to keep advancing as a fighter? Its makes zero sense not to.

Um, he does... He fights in multiuniversal tournaments and trains with gods who traverse those universes. He just doesn't typically hop around those universes the way he did in GT. How much hopping around would you all need to satisfy this idea?

and him retiring into scholarship didn't come with any actual character development at all, nor does it really benefit him & the story as a whole in any real way.

He's 4 when we first meet him and while I agree to an extent that his mother wants it for him, mostly, it's still an organic development for someone like Gohan who never loved battle in and of itself to prefer a more peaceful pursuit. Him becoming the strongest isn't character development. It's not him making an active choice. This makes sense and benefits him because it is him actively deciding what makes sense for him because he finds it fulfilling. One of the more interesting developments in Super was seeing him combine his scholarly personality with his talents as a fighter. Becoming the main character because he was the strongest isn't character development. It also benefits the story by having Gohan choose something different because then he's not just another fighter.

Yes you do,

No, you don't. You can end the story at Battle of Gods. That's why ending by hinting at it makes a lot of sense. The audience can imagine his further adventures because in essence it's just other places Goku can go do the same thing he's always done.

No offense, but you sound like the type of DB fan that goes out of their way to defend/rationalize the franchise's blatantly bad writing decisions in your post.

And no offense (even though we both know that preface is BS) you know little about writing.

And what is with quotes around "theme"? That is the theme of the story. It's the idea that unifies the story. And what's with quotes around 'mountains'?

[UI Peter]

And wouldn't it make sense for Goku to, you know, actively explore those "mountains" in those other universes in order to keep advancing as a fighter? Its makes zero sense not to.

Um, he does... He fights in multiuniversal tournaments and trains with gods who traverse those universes. He just doesn't typically hop around those universes the way he did in GT. How much hopping around would you all need to satisfy this idea?

and him retiring into scholarship didn't come with any actual character development at all, nor does it really benefit him & the story as a whole in any real way.

He's 4 when we first meet him and while I agree to an extent that his mother wants it for him, mostly, it's still an organic development for someone like Gohan who never loved battle in and of itself to prefer a more peaceful pursuit. Him becoming the strongest isn't character development. It's not him making an active choice. This makes sense and benefits him because it is him actively deciding what makes sense for him because he finds it fulfilling. One of the more interesting developments in Super was seeing him combine his scholarly personality with his talents as a fighter. Becoming the main character because he was the strongest isn't character development. It also benefits the story by having Gohan choose something different because then he's not just another fighter.

Yes you do,

No, you don't. You can end the story at Battle of Gods. That's why ending by hinting at it makes a lot of sense. The audience can imagine his further adventures because in essence it's just other places Goku can go do the same thing he's always done.

No offense, but you sound like the type of DB fan that goes out of their way to defend/rationalize the franchise's blatantly bad writing decisions in your post.

And no offense (even though we both know that preface is BS) you know little about writing.

And what is with quotes around "theme"? That is the theme of the story. It's the idea that unifies the story. And what's with quotes around 'mountains'?

- Goku has been mostly a reactive character in Super. If he really wants to advance himself as a fighter then he should be going about universe hopping. Stuff like the ToP isnt enough when most of what he gets fron them are irrelevant fodder.

- If you think Gohan semi-randomly becoming a scholar (despite never showing an active interest in it even during the Buu saga) is character development then you don't know a thing about good writing at all. (And btw, nobody said him getting stronger is development).

"It also benefits the story by having Gohan choose something different because then he's not just another fighter."

Different for different sake doesn't help the story at all, nor does it benefit Gohan either it does nothing to advance either, especially when the character in question is irrelevant.

- "No, you don't. You can end the story at Battle of Gods. That's why ending by hinting at it makes a lot of sense. The audience can imagine his further adventures because in essence it's just other places Goku can go do the same thing he's always done."

That's a lazy way to end a story. You ever heard of "show, don't tell"?

[ABED]

- Goku has been mostly a reactive character in Super. If he really wants to advance himself as a fighter then he should be going about universe hopping. Stuff like the ToP isnt enough when most of what he gets fron them are irrelevant fodder.

- If you think Gohan semi-randomly becoming a scholar (despite never showing an active interest in it even during the Buu saga) is character development then you don't know a thing about good writing at all. (And btw, nobody said him getting stronger is development).

"It also benefits the story by having Gohan choose something different because then he's not just another fighter."

Different for different sake doesn't help the story at all, nor does it benefit Gohan either it does nothing to advance either, especially when the character in question is irrelevant.

- "No, you don't. You can end the story at Battle of Gods. That's why ending by hinting at it makes a lot of sense. The audience can imagine his further adventures because in essence it's just other places Goku can go do the same thing he's always done."

That's a lazy way to end a story. You ever heard of "show, don't tell"?

That's not what show don't tell means. And that's not lazy. We've had years of Goku finding stronger and stronger fighters After a while it's all variation on a theme. It's a great way to end a story where the character realizes they are nowhere close to reaching their peak. Plenty of great stories just hint at a future and allow the audience to fill in the details.

UI Peter - this coming from someone who throws around terms like Mary Sue. Go ahead, tell me what constitutes good writing.

[UI Peter]

- Goku has been mostly a reactive character in Super. If he really wants to advance himself as a fighter then he should be going about universe hopping. Stuff like the ToP isnt enough when most of what he gets fron them are irrelevant fodder.

- If you think Gohan semi-randomly becoming a scholar (despite never showing an active interest in it even during the Buu saga) is character development then you don't know a thing about good writing at all. (And btw, nobody said him getting stronger is development).

"It also benefits the story by having Gohan choose something different because then he's not just another fighter."

Different for different sake doesn't help the story at all, nor does it benefit Gohan either it does nothing to advance either, especially when the character in question is irrelevant.

- "No, you don't. You can end the story at Battle of Gods. That's why ending by hinting at it makes a lot of sense. The audience can imagine his further adventures because in essence it's just other places Goku can go do the same thing he's always done."

That's a lazy way to end a story. You ever heard of "show, don't tell"?

That's not what show don't tell means. And that's not lazy. We've had years of Goku finding stronger and stronger fighters After a while it's all variation on a theme. It's a great way to end a story where the character realizes they are nowhere close to reaching their peak. Plenty of great stories just hint at a future and allow the audience to fill in the details.

UI Peter - this coming from someone who throws around terms like Mary Sue. Go ahead, tell me what constitutes good writing.

- That simply doesn't work with Dragonball, hence why none of the 4 DB series ended that way.

"Mary Sue" is a legit criticism term, only people with no real objective standards on fiction would deny it.

[JulieYBM]

As an adult who been abused herself I do think the Videl versus Spopovitch match is inappropriate for a kids franchise. The brutal imagery is just inappropriate and I wonder what message it sends kids when only a woman--a relatively important new character--gets smashed around by a man. The older I've gotten the less well it sits with me.

[ABED]

You're welcome to not like it, but it is a legitimate ending to the story about a man seeking to reach greater heights. One could argue it's the best ending since ending before seeing the other universes drives home the point that there's no end to it all. It will just keep going. It goes back to an earlier point Muten Roshi made - there is always someone stronger.

"Mary Sue" is a legit criticism term, only people with no real objective standards on fiction would deny it.

It's not and there are no objective standards in fiction.

I think i might be in agreement with Julie. That beating feels out of place in DB. Had it been one of the main characters in the fight against the big bad, maybe. It's oddly violent for what amounts to very little in the way of a payoff.

[MasenkoHA]

- If you think Gohan semi-randomly becoming a scholar (despite never showing an active interest in it even during the Buu saga) is character development then you don't know a thing about good writing at all. (And btw, nobody said him getting stronger is development).

He never showed an interest in being a scholar other than when he told Piccolo and Bulma he wanted to be a scholar. And it was a plot point in the Boo arc that he got weaker because he traded training in for academics. And the NEP for early Z ended with him asking Goku if he thinks he’ll make a great scholar. But OTHER than that, I guess it was random and out of nowhere.

[goku the krump dancer]

GafferTape addressed the Videl/Spoppovich fight in his latest review and I gotta say, i'm more in agreement with him.

There's a sudden "realistic" approach to the violence in that particular fight, that I think is what makes people feel the most uncomfortable but lets not forget, this is the same series where 5 year old Gohan gets his neck broken by grown man Recoome.

Videl and Spoppo were competitors in a tournament where the goal is to either beat your opponent into a coma, beat them into submission or knock them out of the ring. Videl had an option to forfeit but didn't, Gohan was stranded on an entirely different planet with nowhere else to go. Also Videl snapped Spoppovich's neck prior to their fight becoming a one sided beat down, one can argue that he turned up the heat because of embarrassment.

Did he take it too far? sure, much like Tien, when he broke Yamcha's leg but they're both cases of bad guys doing bad guy things. I don't think there're any domestic violence undertones simply because there is no relationship between them, they're two strangers duking it out for sport.

[MasenkoHA]

Did he take it too far? sure, much like Tien, when he broke Yamcha's leg but they're both cases of bad guys doing bad guy things. I don't think there're any domestic violence undertones simply because there is no relationship between them, they're two strangers duking it out for sport.

Tien breaking Yamcha’s leg was done swiftly. Spopovitch’s beatdown of Videl was depicted with a lot more brutality and was far more prolonged.

The closest scene I would even compare to Spopovitch’s torture of Videl would be Freeza repeatedly spearing Krillin.

[goku the krump dancer]

Did he take it too far? sure, much like Tien, when he broke Yamcha's leg but they're both cases of bad guys doing bad guy things. I don't think there're any domestic violence undertones simply because there is no relationship between them, they're two strangers duking it out for sport.

Tien breaking Yamcha’s leg was done swiftly. Spopovitch’s beatdown of Videl was depicted with a lot more brutality and was far more prolonged.

The closest scene I would even compare to Spopovitch’s torture of Videl would be Freeza repeatedly spearing Krillin.

Context matters, Tiens fight with Yamcha was already over and for no other reason other than just being a dick, Tien broke his unconscious former opponent's leg. Videl could've have raised the white flag when ever she wanted but chose to keep fighting, what was Spopovich supposed to do? Let her hit him? To be fair he was already holding back his full strength to avoid killing her anyway, he came of as a giant asshole because he enjoyed beating her down but I mean, he's a bad guy, whaddya aspect?

[MasenkoHA]

Did he take it too far? sure, much like Tien, when he broke Yamcha's leg but they're both cases of bad guys doing bad guy things. I don't think there're any domestic violence undertones simply because there is no relationship between them, they're two strangers duking it out for sport.

Tien breaking Yamcha’s leg was done swiftly. Spopovitch’s beatdown of Videl was depicted with a lot more brutality and was far more prolonged.

The closest scene I would even compare to Spopovitch’s torture of Videl would be Freeza repeatedly spearing Krillin.

Context matters, Tiens fight with Yamcha was already over and for no other reason other than just being a dick, Tien broke his unconscious former opponent's leg. Videl could've have raised the white flag when ever she wanted but chose to keep fighting, what was Spopovich supposed to do? Let her hit him? To be fair he was already holding back his full strength to avoid killing her anyway, he came of as a giant asshole because he enjoyed beating her down but I mean, he's a bad guy, whaddya aspect?

You’re right context matters. The point isn’t “character was being an evil dick” the point is the story itself over indulges in Videl’s beatdown.

[Cursed Lemon]

The Tournament of Power was literally the laziest possible way to introduce multiple universes into the DB story. The ToP should've come after several arcs involving the other universes, which would've worked to build suspense for the inevitable conflict by having characters, their histories, their feats, their relationships, etc. brewing in the back of the viewers' minds. Instead, what's the one universe we explore (and not even explore, actually) before the ToP? The one with carbon-copy saiyans in it, down to the same actual transformations. Lazy doesn't even BEGIN to describe that.

[goku the krump dancer]

You’re right context matters. The point isn’t “character was being an evil dick” the point is the story itself over indulges in Videl’s beatdown.

The counter point is that, its not the only moment in the series where some one is brutally beat down for an extended period, I feel like their's a level of innocence being played up because Videl is female but how is she any more innocent than Gohan getting beaten up by Recoome or Nappa?