Do you think 18 was holding back fighting Mighty Mask?

[Mireya]

Do we even know if Toriyama was the one who wrote the dialogue in which Beerus said base Goku was incapable of defeating Freeza? Because that could be a Toei added thing. It's in the Super anime but it's absent in Toyotaro's manga. Rather, in Toyo's manga Beerus only acknowledged Goku's ability to defeat Freeza when he goes SSJ2 and in the anime, Beerus says besting Freeza is the most Goku could do, which explain that as you will, it isn't a line supposed to be directed to someone who's at least multifold about Freeza. Beerus knows no other character Goku can beat besides Freeza and that's stronger? He knows Kaioshin. And even if he didn't, the line gives aways clearly the impression that Goku would have his hands full Vs Freeza, it's not because you don't have another comparison to draw that you, in the absence of a better example, say to someone whose strength is a 20 that beating someone who scales as 1, that beating 1 is "the best he could do". A way more appropriate line, in case there was no example floating his head, would be "hmm, you could have easily beaten Freeza in this state, the gap is way too big". It'd be like Shin looking at SSJ2 Gohan in the Budokai and saying "hmm, impressive power, but beating Freeza is the best he could do". That'd be really weird, wouldn't it? I think he'd have no one else to compare Gohan to if we think Gohan fought at his best Vs Dabra. We don't know Toriyama's involvement with every line in the movie. He may assist, but there can be some liberty taken with the dialogues, can't there?

I myself think 18 held back, since she didn't lose her composure when seeing the power that was competitive with her earlier just got boosted up as SSJ... And was surprised when they threw a blast that was moderately above her. But was she that suppressed? I don't think so. Kid Trunks wants to fire a blast that will defeat 18, but won't kill her. So he wouldn't go with a blast way above 18... He'd go with one decently above, but not above enough to be a threat for her life. What does Trunks have to base 18's power? The fight they just had. So say 18 was suppressed to a really low level, like 10%... Trunks would go for a blast above that, but not way above because he doesn't want to kill... So he'd at most go with a 15% blast or so (we've seen how threatening 1.5x gaps can be, for instance, Goku Vs Ginyus... One shot doesn't kill, but do nasty damage). In that case, wouldn't 18 easily tank Trunks' blast? It's only filling 15% of her power. But no, Trunks wasn't so off the mark on the blast needed to defeat her. So I conclude with this reasoning she was fighting at a reasonable level, like 75% or so... More or less the level she used and was competitive Vs SSJ Vegeta (I think she held back to a degree there too). So she still has some power to spare as to not lose her shit when seeing them transforming (only, she didn't know SSJ's boost). So maybe base kid Trunks and Goten were right around SSJ Vegeta's level [Vs the androids], in my book.

I'm not saying this is a sure thing or anything, it's just a base I go off for scaling the characters. I think it's well backed up at least.

[Seekeroftruth]

The costume was obviously a very huge drawback as Trunks still thought they were at a disadvantage even after he saw how they could fend off 18 for a while and that her slam didn't cause them any damage. If even after observing that the weight of her power wasn't enough to damage them in their base states, or at least cause heavy damage, he still thinks going SSJ wouldn't give them a leeway in h2h, then obviously the story placed a lot of emphasis on how restrictive the costume was. Just a suppressed blast from Trunks filled her eyes with shock... They're way stronger than her as unhindered SSJs. The lack of coordination was the big factor in terms of them fighting as SSJ.

The costume has very minor drawbacks. The costume has no magical properties and does not limit the fighters speed, strength or reflexes. It is not like Piccolo's weighted clothing which at these fighter's levels would provide little difference to their abilities. The costume only hinders their eyesight a little and their ability to evade.

The boys were at a disadvantage for the simple reason that they were weaker than Android 18.

[Mireya]

The costume was obviously a very huge drawback as Trunks still thought they were at a disadvantage even after he saw how they could fend off 18 for a while and that her slam didn't cause them any damage. If even after observing that the weight of her power wasn't enough to damage them in their base states, or at least cause heavy damage, he still thinks going SSJ wouldn't give them a leeway in h2h, then obviously the story placed a lot of emphasis on how restrictive the costume was. Just a suppressed blast from Trunks filled her eyes with shock... They're way stronger than her as unhindered SSJs. The lack of coordination was the big factor in terms of them fighting as SSJ.

The costume has very minor drawbacks. The costume has no magical properties and does not limit the fighters speed, strength or reflexes. It is not like Piccolo's weighted clothing which at these fighter's levels would provide little difference to their abilities. The costume only hinders their eyesight a little and their ability to evade.

The boys were at a disadvantage for the simple reason that they were weaker than Android 18.

No, the costume has very heavy drawbacks, actually. They couldn't coordinate themselves properly, and Goten was basically dead weight in the fight. When 18 kicked them, Trunks was telling Goten to evade and Goten complained he couldn't see. When 18 fired the blast, Trunks had to tell Goten to dodge, as he was the one who could see the attack coming. It was obviously a huge pain to fight like that. What the costume doesn't affect is their durability, as seen by Trunks and Goten getting up unharmed by 18's slamming attack. But all Trunks could do was fend off 18's punches and when she kicked in a position below Trunks' range of action, they already got all lost. The fact Trunks stated they can't win "like this". i.e, in the costume situation, without emphasizing how 18 was way above his estimations, implies the big problem was the costume all along.

Plus, I'll repeat... Trunks saw how 18's attack didn't injury them, he saw he could take it and get up quickly... And still thought that becoming way stronger through the SSJ wouldn't give them the advantage vs 18... Which means Trunks obviously saw the suit as a huge drag to their fighting abilities, otherwise he'd think that, winning against someone he could block the attacks while in base while getting 50x stronger, would be no problem.

Do I think that it's stretching to think that two fighters above Semi Cell's level sitted in the other's shoulder using a costume would struggle vs 18? Sure, I think analysing it solely putting ourselves in their shoes and thinking how they should fare with the costume, it shouldn't be that much of a problem. It doesn't matter though, as the story clearly treated it as a huge drawback.

[super michael]

The costume was obviously a very huge drawback as Trunks still thought they were at a disadvantage even after he saw how they could fend off 18 for a while and that her slam didn't cause them any damage. If even after observing that the weight of her power wasn't enough to damage them in their base states, or at least cause heavy damage, he still thinks going SSJ wouldn't give them a leeway in h2h, then obviously the story placed a lot of emphasis on how restrictive the costume was. Just a suppressed blast from Trunks filled her eyes with shock... They're way stronger than her as unhindered SSJs. The lack of coordination was the big factor in terms of them fighting as SSJ.

The costume has very minor drawbacks. The costume has no magical properties and does not limit the fighters speed, strength or reflexes. It is not like Piccolo's weighted clothing which at these fighter's levels would provide little difference to their abilities. The costume only hinders their eyesight a little and their ability to evade.

The boys were at a disadvantage for the simple reason that they were weaker than Android 18.

No, the costume has very heavy drawbacks, actually. They couldn't coordinate themselves properly, and Goten was basically dead weight in the fight. When 18 kicked them, Trunks was telling Goten to evade and Goten complained he couldn't see. When 18 fired the blast, Trunks had to tell Goten to dodge, as he was the one who could see the attack coming. It was obviously a huge pain to fight like that. What the costume doesn't affect is their durability, as seen by Trunks and Goten getting up unharmed by 18's slamming attack. But all Trunks could do was fend off 18's punches and when she kicked in a position below Trunks' range of action, they already got all lost. The fact Trunks stated they can't win "like this". i.e, in the costume situation, without emphasizing how 18 was way above his estimations, implies the big problem was the costume all along.

Plus, I'll repeat... Trunks saw how 18's attack didn't injury them, he saw he could take it and get up quickly... And still thought that becoming way stronger through the SSJ wouldn't give them the advantage vs 18... Which means Trunks obviously saw the suit as a huge drag to their fighting abilities, otherwise he'd think that, winning against someone he could block the attacks while in base while getting 50x stronger, would be no problem.

Do I think that it's stretching to think that two fighters above Semi Cell's level sitted in the other's shoulder using a costume would struggle vs 18? Sure, I think analysing it solely putting ourselves in their shoes and thinking how they should fare with the costume, it shouldn't be that much of a problem. It doesn't matter though, as the story clearly treated it as a huge drawback.

Lets not forget that C18 ki can't get sensed like any normal fighter. So Goten not being able to see, puts them at a bigger disadvantage.
The reason why their costume broke, was because they didn't dodge on the same side, one dodged left while the other dodged right.

[Mireya]

Yeah and that's exactly why 18 went with a Kienzan. She knew it was an attack they had to dodge and threw it on a conflicting point... In a spot they'd instinctively dodge to different directions, most likely. And that's true, Goten was basically a dead weight there. Trunks complained how Goten should also kick, but poor Goten couldn't even see the attacks coming. It's clear fighting that way was too hard. It wouldn't affect Trunks' abilities of defending 18's punches, but were she to kick in a position Trunks had no control of, they'd be already in trouble. 18 could also go for leg kicks and give them big problems in dodging. Trunks was distracted and couldn't use a good leverage to punch, so 18 quickly dodged that and slammed them to the ground. Her power wasn't a big problem to them, though, as they got up from the attack like nothing happened. Their lack of coordination was the main factor, and in fact that was what Trunks complained, he didn't say how 18 was way better than he expected.

I think 18 used more or less the same effort, Vs their bases, as she used when attacking SSJ Vegeta initially, before using full power. Interestingly enough, her facial expressions also match that. And also interestingly, kid Trunks had similar difficulties in blocking her hits as SSJ Vegeta did Vs her, going by both facial expressions, gritting their teeth and showing expressions of effort being put, but Vegeta had proper coordination and so could dodge some of 18'sbattacks. That's why I like to have base kid Trunks ~ SSJ Vegeta [androids arc]. When 18 said she'd go all out vs Vegeta, she gave a smile first and attacked him... And when she saw they were the boys and went SSJ, she also smiled and got into a battle position, likely intending to go from her resting state to FP to battle the SSJ kids... But when she saw their SSJ was just that strong, she gave up on fighting them all along. I think both initially Vs Veveta and Vs base kids she was using a good portion of her FP, like 75% or so, but was still sparing a very considerable amount of power.

[TobyS]

We do. It was only until it was brought to his attention by fans that Gohan was reverted back to his "Ultimate" form.

Source? That was people reacting to the BOG trailer. Toriyamas involvement with the film was over at that point. He wrote “everyone attacks and gets owned" in his script most likely and toei had him go SS

Toriyama still wrote the script, no?

I can all but guarantee you he doesn't choreograph fights or specify forms, except for who gets the new one and stuff like that.

I'd be shocked if literally he wrote anything other than "the dragon team attack beerus together but are easily defeated" he wasn't drawing storyboards.