What if the SOCIAL MEDIA had existed back during the Buu Saga?

[JulieYBM]

I don't think the reaction to Goten and Trunks being Super Saiyans would be as bad as the reaction to Caulifla and Kale. MasenkoHA is right, the misogyny is the real kicker there.

They would inevitably complain about Videl being antagonistic towards male characters, though.

Videl, again, I can already see the MRA clickbait video titles right now. ESPECIALLY at the mention that she was arguably stronger than her dad or learned how to use ki "so easily"


With Caulifla, that's where I'm going to have to play devil's advocate.
Yes, it played a role (I mean hell, anyone remember Perfection or Tyrone Magnus's freakouts?).... but I feel like we're starting to forget history here, forgetting that the antagonism towards the "Super Saiyan bargain sale" went back literal DECADES. I mean even in those Usenet posts I posted earlier, there were some people in the 90s grumbling at how stupid it was that two kids could go Super Saiyan so easily.

Spoiler:

Caulifla was the culmination of decades of "ruining" Super Saiyan

• Super Saiyan was this legend, a form even Freeza feared and Vegeta envied
• Son Goku transforms at the loss of his best friend, the culmination of 318 chapters of a story, and best part is that he doesn't even care about the legend or being some warrior messiah, he just wants to avenge his friend, hence why he could transform at all other heartless Saiyans could not
• Wait, no, now this no-named punk could go Super Saiyan, but that was still cool
• Now Vegeta's a Super Saiyan? Well it's still cool, "He should have gone Super Saiyan on Namek and been the one to defeat Freeza" says his fanboys
• Now Gohan can transform but hey, "Why didn't he transform on Namek?"
• Trunks special shows us the pain of Trunks' transformation, retroactively super-justifies it
• Situation is ugly in that there are so many Super Saiyans when it was supposed to be this legendary transformation, but maybe that was just a legend Vegeta believed, and they all had their reasons
• Now two kids transform..... why?????? Because...........................................................
• No one likes this, has to spend years justifying it, "their dads were Super Saiyans when they were conceived? Gohan was stronger than Kid Goku because Goku was strong when Gohan was conceived, so maybe training boosts your sperm's ki too??"
• Fans get angry that Pan never transforms into a Super Saiyan, angrier when learning why (essentially because 90s Japanese are sexist and "girls exist to be saved")
• Even angrier when Goku Jr from 100 years later can transform, and even Vegeta Jr, with ultra-diluted Saiyan blood
• 2 decades pass, main DB media are video games that reinforce how to become a Super Saiyan, fans grumbling all that time about Goten, Trunks, grumbling about why Goku Jr could go Super Saiyan but not Pan
• Bardock becomes Super Saiyan because fucking why not? Just keep cheapening the transformation! That goes against what made Bardock cool! Who even wants this? Why give him Super Saiyan 2? 3?? Toei what the fuck are you doing, do you not understand what made Bardock cool, was that he WASN'T special???
• Cabba becomes Super Saiyan, the guy looks like a stick and only did because Vegeta threatened to blow up his planet? Lame...
• Saiyan Midichlorians! "Fuck Toriyama"
• First promo of female Super Saiyan, in fact a female LEGENDARY Super Saiyan. From what I remember, fans really liked the sound of it and were going "About fucking time!"
• Caulifla transforms! How? "By tingling her back"
• "FUCK YOU TORIYAMA"
• Caulifla even goes Super Saiyan 2 by total accident, "So I guess Gohan's transformation meant nothing now" was a common sentiment around that point
• Whatever was left of the coolness of Super Saiyan is long gone, now it's absolutely just a joke (to be the Super Devil's Advocate... this is Dragon Ball we're talking about, nothing is sacred, least of all something as "sacred" as Super Saiyan)
• Especially not helped by U6 Saiyans looking like sticks. Where's the muscles?!

Undoubtedly the MRA types exploited the vitriol, and I even recognized that at the time that they jumped at the first opportunity they could to shit on "muh strong girlboss Saiyan" in a time when EVERYONE was shitting on Caulifla by trying to frame it as a woke matter, and it hasn't escaped notice that people gave Broly a pass for being so strong but not Caulifla, but honestly it was the ultimate confluence of everything coming together in the worst way. Fans have taken Dragon Ball so seriously for a long time, so I can completely understand why a stick girl who we've never seen training or struggling with loss suddenly getting Super Saiyan 1 and 2 virtually overnight would feel like a slap in the face to everything we've seen in the series thus far, like Goku's loss of Krillin, Future Trunks's loss of Gohan, Gohan snapping, all that fun stuff is meaningless and they should have just made their backs tingle. Not only that, but it also felt like it denied Caulifla the same chance at some sort of growth. So even if Caulifla was male, I do unironically think there'd have been a great deal of anger, and Toriyama's "S-Cells" practically poured fire on the poor girl before it even came to that. And very arguably, Goten and Trunks transforming so easily was the start of that path.

Then again, ultimately, I don't think that was the intention, and it was ultimately a case of "We need them to be Super Saiyans strong enough to stand up to Universe 7, and we only have 2 episodes to do it, so whatever works"

So basically I would have to at least offer some counter point here, just so there isn't rewriting history like people seem to be doing with Z Broly being hated for "hating Goku for crying"/his power being MAXIMUM or the perception of Goku being a bad dad being things TFS created from the ether as if that wasn't the case for decades. Yeah, misogyny played a role, but to forget the decades of people getting progressively angrier at the "cheapening" of Super Saiyan could cause some context to be lost. Not that it matters since we've unfortunately never seen the U6 Saiyans in any capacity since 2018 and likely won't anytime soon (which could do wonders to explaining how they work differently or what exactly went on in their pasts).

Kale on the other hand? Fuck that, she's the Legendary Super Saiyan. She should have been born a Super Saiyan. Imagine her as a toddler going green wrecking shit. That's just how it should work.

It's the existence of women and minorities that triggers those people, though, and that's the main issue. Nobody is going to be harmed by people on the internet going on-and-on about boys like Goten and Trunks ruining their perfect little sandbox. It's specifically that fans can now tap into their deeply held misogyny as a final, true proof that the stupid thing they like—or more often than not, don't like and just need a reason to hate on women and minorities—is being ruined. The goal is to ultimately push anyone who isn't like them out of fandom spaces, because they're all a bunch of hateful, fascist pieces of shit.

If Caulifal and Kale had been men then nobody would bat an eye, but because they're women and they're capable of something that lets them be mostly independent of men, insane people can come out of the woodwork to complain as a way to push anyone that might be attracted to female character gets to do cool stuff (women, minorities, allies) out of the fandom space.

You can magically make Caulifla a cishet male character who figures out how to become a Super Saiyan and wants to battle Gokuu and at the end of the day fandom is going to just that pass, because it's normalized behavior for men to be 'cool' and to have the kind of swagger and indominable spirit that Caulifla shows off. This is why Carrie Fisher wanted to play Han Solo instead of Princess Leia. Women don't get to be those things.

[super michael]

I don't think the reaction to Goten and Trunks being Super Saiyans would be as bad as the reaction to Caulifla and Kale. MasenkoHA is right, the misogyny is the real kicker there.

They would inevitably complain about Videl being antagonistic towards male characters, though.

Videl, again, I can already see the MRA clickbait video titles right now. ESPECIALLY at the mention that she was arguably stronger than her dad or learned how to use ki "so easily"


With Caulifla, that's where I'm going to have to play devil's advocate.
Yes, it played a role (I mean hell, anyone remember Perfection or Tyrone Magnus's freakouts?).... but I feel like we're starting to forget history here, forgetting that the antagonism towards the "Super Saiyan bargain sale" went back literal DECADES. I mean even in those Usenet posts I posted earlier, there were some people in the 90s grumbling at how stupid it was that two kids could go Super Saiyan so easily.

Spoiler:

Caulifla was the culmination of decades of "ruining" Super Saiyan

• Super Saiyan was this legend, a form even Freeza feared and Vegeta envied
• Son Goku transforms at the loss of his best friend, the culmination of 318 chapters of a story, and best part is that he doesn't even care about the legend or being some warrior messiah, he just wants to avenge his friend, hence why he could transform at all other heartless Saiyans could not
• Wait, no, now this no-named punk could go Super Saiyan, but that was still cool
• Now Vegeta's a Super Saiyan? Well it's still cool, "He should have gone Super Saiyan on Namek and been the one to defeat Freeza" says his fanboys
• Now Gohan can transform but hey, "Why didn't he transform on Namek?"
• Trunks special shows us the pain of Trunks' transformation, retroactively super-justifies it
• Situation is ugly in that there are so many Super Saiyans when it was supposed to be this legendary transformation, but maybe that was just a legend Vegeta believed, and they all had their reasons
• Now two kids transform..... why?????? Because...........................................................
• No one likes this, has to spend years justifying it, "their dads were Super Saiyans when they were conceived? Gohan was stronger than Kid Goku because Goku was strong when Gohan was conceived, so maybe training boosts your sperm's ki too??"
• Fans get angry that Pan never transforms into a Super Saiyan, angrier when learning why (essentially because 90s Japanese are sexist and "girls exist to be saved")
• Even angrier when Goku Jr from 100 years later can transform, and even Vegeta Jr, with ultra-diluted Saiyan blood
• 2 decades pass, main DB media are video games that reinforce how to become a Super Saiyan, fans grumbling all that time about Goten, Trunks, grumbling about why Goku Jr could go Super Saiyan but not Pan
• Bardock becomes Super Saiyan because fucking why not? Just keep cheapening the transformation! That goes against what made Bardock cool! Who even wants this? Why give him Super Saiyan 2? 3?? Toei what the fuck are you doing, do you not understand what made Bardock cool, was that he WASN'T special???
• Cabba becomes Super Saiyan, the guy looks like a stick and only did because Vegeta threatened to blow up his planet? Lame...
• Saiyan Midichlorians! "Fuck Toriyama"
• First promo of female Super Saiyan, in fact a female LEGENDARY Super Saiyan. From what I remember, fans really liked the sound of it and were going "About fucking time!"
• Caulifla transforms! How? "By tingling her back"
• "FUCK YOU TORIYAMA"
• Caulifla even goes Super Saiyan 2 by total accident, "So I guess Gohan's transformation meant nothing now" was a common sentiment around that point
• Whatever was left of the coolness of Super Saiyan is long gone, now it's absolutely just a joke (to be the Super Devil's Advocate... this is Dragon Ball we're talking about, nothing is sacred, least of all something as "sacred" as Super Saiyan)
• Especially not helped by U6 Saiyans looking like sticks. Where's the muscles?!

Undoubtedly the MRA types exploited the vitriol, and I even recognized that at the time that they jumped at the first opportunity they could to shit on "muh strong girlboss Saiyan" in a time when EVERYONE was shitting on Caulifla by trying to frame it as a woke matter, and it hasn't escaped notice that people gave Broly a pass for being so strong but not Caulifla, but honestly it was the ultimate confluence of everything coming together in the worst way. Fans have taken Dragon Ball so seriously for a long time, so I can completely understand why a stick girl who we've never seen training or struggling with loss suddenly getting Super Saiyan 1 and 2 virtually overnight would feel like a slap in the face to everything we've seen in the series thus far, like Goku's loss of Krillin, Future Trunks's loss of Gohan, Gohan snapping, all that fun stuff is meaningless and they should have just made their backs tingle. Not only that, but it also felt like it denied Caulifla the same chance at some sort of growth. So even if Caulifla was male, I do unironically think there'd have been a great deal of anger, and Toriyama's "S-Cells" practically poured fire on the poor girl before it even came to that. And very arguably, Goten and Trunks transforming so easily was the start of that path.

Then again, ultimately, I don't think that was the intention, and it was ultimately a case of "We need them to be Super Saiyans strong enough to stand up to Universe 7, and we only have 2 episodes to do it, so whatever works"

So basically I would have to at least offer some counter point here, just so there isn't rewriting history like people seem to be doing with Z Broly being hated for "hating Goku for crying"/his power being MAXIMUM or the perception of Goku being a bad dad being things TFS created from the ether as if that wasn't the case for decades. Yeah, misogyny played a role, but to forget the decades of people getting progressively angrier at the "cheapening" of Super Saiyan could cause some context to be lost. Not that it matters since we've unfortunately never seen the U6 Saiyans in any capacity since 2018 and likely won't anytime soon (which could do wonders to explaining how they work differently or what exactly went on in their pasts).

Kale on the other hand? Fuck that, she's the Legendary Super Saiyan. She should have been born a Super Saiyan. Imagine her as a toddler going green wrecking shit. That's just how it should work.

It's the existence of women and minorities that triggers those people, though, and that's the main issue. Nobody is going to be harmed by people on the internet going on-and-on about boys like Goten and Trunks ruining their perfect little sandbox. It's specifically that fans can now tap into their deeply held misogyny as a final, true proof that the stupid thing they like—or more often than not, don't like and just need a reason to hate on women and minorities—is being ruined. The goal is to ultimately push anyone who isn't like them out of fandom spaces, because they're all a bunch of hateful, fascist pieces of shit.

If Caulifal and Kale had been men then nobody would bat an eye, but because they're women and they're capable of something that lets them be mostly independent of men, insane people can come out of the woodwork to complain as a way to push anyone that might be attracted to female character gets to do cool stuff (women, minorities, allies) out of the fandom space.

You can magically make Caulifla a cishet male character who figures out how to become a Super Saiyan and wants to battle Gokuu and at the end of the day fandom is going to just that pass, because it's normalized behavior for men to be 'cool' and to have the kind of swagger and indominable spirit that Caulifla shows off. This is why Carrie Fisher wanted to play Han Solo instead of Princess Leia. Women don't get to be those things.

If Kale and Caulifla were men, I would still say the same thing as I said now that they are females. It has nothing to do with misogyny at all.


Goten and Trunks has trained harder than Kale and Caulifla, their desire to get are so great that they wanted to train with powerful and skillful fighters.

Caulifla and Kale they don't train with anyone more powerful and skillful than themselves. They don't dare ask their Angel or GoD to train them.


I can imagine Pan and Bra has great potential, seeing their parents are strong, smart with transformation unlocked.


Oob is the reincarnation of Kid Boo, who had Dai Kaioshin and South Kaioshin God Ki. He has their God Ki, which is how he is born all powerful, the only thing he lacks is the skill to use it.


Edit I have said it before Tenshinhan, Kuririn, C17 and Freeza got all powerful without doing hard training, which is bad.
All they do is weak training, never seeking master or anyone more powerful than themselves.
Note: (Freeza trained hard in the manga, he deserve his Black Form).

[tonysoprano300]

I guess in the Buu arc, the idea of Goten and Trunk being SSJ’s almost feels like a gag. Its never really played that straight and I think its supposed to be outrageous that this ancient alien prophecy is essentially just dress up at this point. And the whole “X used to mean something!” was a sentiment echoed by not only the fans but even the characters in the story too. Vegeta especially was an old man yelling at a cloud about how much better things were in his day.

Not that it justifies the whole thing entirely, but I guess for me its kind of funny when the story acknowledges the silliness and goes “Yes, this makes no sense and isn’t supposed to be happening” which is why I never really could get annoyed with it too much when everyone was. Although I think its fair game to criticize it too.

[super michael]

I guess in the Buu arc, the idea of Goten and Trunk being SSJ’s almost feels like a gag. Its never really played that straight and I think its supposed to be outrageous that this ancient alien prophecy is essentially just dress up at this point. And the whole “X used to mean something!” was a sentiment echoed by not only the fans but even the characters in the story too. Vegeta especially was an old man yelling at a cloud about how much better things were in his day.

Not that it justifies the whole thing entirely, but I guess for me its kind of funny when the story acknowledges the silliness and goes “Yes, this makes no sense and isn’t supposed to be happening” which is why I never really could get annoyed with it too much when everyone was. Although I think its fair game to criticize it too.

Goten and Trunks are the first kids to be born from Super Saiyan parents. Not many Saiyans can say that.
Plus they also trained, Trunks was stated to train a lot. He even used the Gravity Chamber.

Goten learned hand to hand combat skills and other things from Chi Chi and then had Trunks to train with.

However they never managed to gain anything higher than SSJ1, they can only use SSJ1 as individuals.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

The cheapening of Super Saiyan, which was supposed to be this mythical concept by giving it to Goten and Trunks is one aspect of the Boo arc that I can't defend. Though the same could be said about the Cell arc with Gohan even though he was a few years older.

[JulieYBM]

If Kale and Caulifla were men, I would still say the same thing as I said now that they are females. It has nothing to do with misogyny at all.


Goten and Trunks has trained harder than Kale and Caulifla, their desire to get are so great that they wanted to train with powerful and skillful fighters.

Caulifla and Kale they don't train with anyone more powerful and skillful than themselves. They don't dare ask their Angel or GoD to train them.


I can imagine Pan and Bra has great potential, seeing their parents are strong, smart with transformation unlocked.


Oob is the reincarnation of Kid Boo, who had Dai Kaioshin and South Kaioshin God Ki. He has their God Ki, which is how he is born all powerful, the only thing he lacks is the skill to use it.


Edit I have said it before Tenshinhan, Kuririn, C17 and Freeza got all powerful without doing hard training, which is bad.
All they do is weak training, never seeking master or anyone more powerful than themselves.
Note: (Freeza trained hard in the manga, he deserve his Black Form).

Goten and Trunks do nothing but fuck around. That is literally why they were not brought to the Tournament of Power—they are not reliable. Caulifla and Kale meanwhile do, in fact, train, take battle a hell of a lot more seriously than Goten and Trunks, and have actual storylines that somebody actually wanted to write and then wrote them.

The cheapening of Super Saiyan, which was supposed to be this mythical concept by giving it to Goten and Trunks is one aspect of the Boo arc that I can't defend. Though the same could be said about the Cell arc with Gohan even though he was a few years older.

It's a joke. At that point it's been one hundred ten chapters since Gokuu first because a Super Saiyan. That is an eternity in publishing time, so it makes sense that it would not be played as a joke in a gag-heavy comic that is continuing to introduce new Super Saiyan characters and Super Saiyan forms.

[super michael]

If Kale and Caulifla were men, I would still say the same thing as I said now that they are females. It has nothing to do with misogyny at all.


Goten and Trunks has trained harder than Kale and Caulifla, their desire to get are so great that they wanted to train with powerful and skillful fighters.

Caulifla and Kale they don't train with anyone more powerful and skillful than themselves. They don't dare ask their Angel or GoD to train them.


I can imagine Pan and Bra has great potential, seeing their parents are strong, smart with transformation unlocked.


Oob is the reincarnation of Kid Boo, who had Dai Kaioshin and South Kaioshin God Ki. He has their God Ki, which is how he is born all powerful, the only thing he lacks is the skill to use it.


Edit I have said it before Tenshinhan, Kuririn, C17 and Freeza got all powerful without doing hard training, which is bad.
All they do is weak training, never seeking master or anyone more powerful than themselves.
Note: (Freeza trained hard in the manga, he deserve his Black Form).

Goten and Trunks do nothing but fuck around. That is literally why they were not brought to the Tournament of Power—they are not reliable. Caulifla and Kale meanwhile do, in fact, train, take battle a hell of a lot more seriously than Goten and Trunks, and have actual storylines that somebody actually wanted to write and then wrote them.

The cheapening of Super Saiyan, which was supposed to be this mythical concept by giving it to Goten and Trunks is one aspect of the Boo arc that I can't defend. Though the same could be said about the Cell arc with Gohan even though he was a few years older.

It's a joke. At that point it's been one hundred ten chapters since Gokuu first because a Super Saiyan. That is an eternity in publishing time, so it makes sense that it would not be played as a joke in a gag-heavy comic that is continuing to introduce new Super Saiyan characters and Super Saiyan forms.

Boo is even more unreliable, he was the reason that Beerus got mad. Then later he fell asleep in RoF, U6 Vs U7 test and ToP. Lets not forget he didn't take his exhibition match serious, until Mr Satan got hurt.

Bulma is not a fighter, yet she is in the battle ground. She could have caused Freeza to get angry with her insult and have Freeza kill everyone.

Goten and Trunks as Gotenks did mess around, I give you that. However they never messed around when it came to training.


The only reason I believe you don't care about Goten and Trunks not being allowed to do anything is because they are male.
I remember you wanted Videl to be involved in battling evil in the Boo Saga, just because she is female.


As for me I don't care what gender a character is, heck I am excited to see what Pan does since she seems like a interesting character. She is pure of heart and enjoys training. How she was written in DBS Super Hero was good, can't wait to see more.
Pan is like Goku but smart also.

I am one of the member that thought it was bad C18 didn't fight in RoF, despite having infinite stamina and a higher power level than Kuririn.

[JulieYBM]

If Kale and Caulifla were men, I would still say the same thing as I said now that they are females. It has nothing to do with misogyny at all.


Goten and Trunks has trained harder than Kale and Caulifla, their desire to get are so great that they wanted to train with powerful and skillful fighters.

Caulifla and Kale they don't train with anyone more powerful and skillful than themselves. They don't dare ask their Angel or GoD to train them.


I can imagine Pan and Bra has great potential, seeing their parents are strong, smart with transformation unlocked.


Oob is the reincarnation of Kid Boo, who had Dai Kaioshin and South Kaioshin God Ki. He has their God Ki, which is how he is born all powerful, the only thing he lacks is the skill to use it.


Edit I have said it before Tenshinhan, Kuririn, C17 and Freeza got all powerful without doing hard training, which is bad.
All they do is weak training, never seeking master or anyone more powerful than themselves.
Note: (Freeza trained hard in the manga, he deserve his Black Form).

Goten and Trunks do nothing but fuck around. That is literally why they were not brought to the Tournament of Power—they are not reliable. Caulifla and Kale meanwhile do, in fact, train, take battle a hell of a lot more seriously than Goten and Trunks, and have actual storylines that somebody actually wanted to write and then wrote them.

The cheapening of Super Saiyan, which was supposed to be this mythical concept by giving it to Goten and Trunks is one aspect of the Boo arc that I can't defend. Though the same could be said about the Cell arc with Gohan even though he was a few years older.

It's a joke. At that point it's been one hundred ten chapters since Gokuu first because a Super Saiyan. That is an eternity in publishing time, so it makes sense that it would not be played as a joke in a gag-heavy comic that is continuing to introduce new Super Saiyan characters and Super Saiyan forms.

Boo is even more unreliable, he was the reason that Beerus got mad. Then later he fell asleep in RoF, U6 Vs U7 test and ToP. Lets not forget he didn't take his exhibition match serious, until Mr Satan got hurt.

Bulma is not a fighter, yet she is in the battle ground. She could have caused Freeza to get angry with her insult and have Freeza kill everyone.

Goten and Trunks as Gotenks did mess around, I give you that. However they never messed around when it came to training.


The only reason I believe you don't care about Goten and Trunks not being allowed to do anything is because they are male.
I remember you wanted Videl to be involved in battling evil in the Boo Saga, just because she is female.


As for me I don't care what gender a character is, heck I am excited to see what Pan does since she seems like a interesting character. She is pure of heart and enjoys training. How she was written in DBS Super Hero was good, can't wait to see more.
Pan is like Goku but smart also.

I am one of the member that thought it was bad C18 didn't fight in RoF, despite having infinite stamina and a higher power level than Kuririn.

I want Videl to get to get to fight because historically female characters get treated poorly in media, just as women are treatedly poorly in real life. You say things like "I don't care about gender," but that's just your male privilege speaking. If a woman doesn't say, "You know, I think it would be cool if this newly introduced female fighting character got to fight!" then nobody will. Women consistently have to be their number one advocate when it comes to the discussion of the portrayal of women and girls in media. That you're surprised that a woman would need to do this just goes to show that you have the luxury of never having to think about shit.

Anyway, the point is, I'm right about Caulifla and Kale.

[MasenkoHA]

Goten and Trunks do nothing but fuck around. That is literally why they were not brought to the Tournament of Power—they are not reliable. Caulifla and Kale meanwhile do, in fact, train, take battle a hell of a lot more seriously than Goten and Trunks, and have actual storylines that somebody actually wanted to write and then wrote them.



It's a joke. At that point it's been one hundred ten chapters since Gokuu first because a Super Saiyan. That is an eternity in publishing time, so it makes sense that it would not be played as a joke in a gag-heavy comic that is continuing to introduce new Super Saiyan characters and Super Saiyan forms.

Boo is even more unreliable, he was the reason that Beerus got mad. Then later he fell asleep in RoF, U6 Vs U7 test and ToP. Lets not forget he didn't take his exhibition match serious, until Mr Satan got hurt.

Bulma is not a fighter, yet she is in the battle ground. She could have caused Freeza to get angry with her insult and have Freeza kill everyone.

Goten and Trunks as Gotenks did mess around, I give you that. However they never messed around when it came to training.


The only reason I believe you don't care about Goten and Trunks not being allowed to do anything is because they are male.
I remember you wanted Videl to be involved in battling evil in the Boo Saga, just because she is female.


As for me I don't care what gender a character is, heck I am excited to see what Pan does since she seems like a interesting character. She is pure of heart and enjoys training. How she was written in DBS Super Hero was good, can't wait to see more.
Pan is like Goku but smart also.

I am one of the member that thought it was bad C18 didn't fight in RoF, despite having infinite stamina and a higher power level than Kuririn.

I want Videl to get to get to fight because historically female characters get treated poorly in media, just as women are treatedly poorly in real life. You say things like "I don't care about gender," but that's just your male privilege speaking. If a woman doesn't say, "You know, I think it would be cool if this newly introduced female fighting character got to fight!" then nobody will. Women consistently have to be their number one advocate when it comes to the discussion of the portrayal of women and girls in media. That you're surprised that a woman would need to do this just goes to show that you have the luxury of never having to think about shit.

Anyway, the point is, I'm right about Caulifla and Kale.

And honestly even when you compare Dragon Ball to other series in its demographic (series aimed at elementary school boys) Dragon Ball is especially bad when it comes to how it handles its female characters.

[BlueChi]

What an extremely bizarre hill to die on.

Videl taking on Buu and doing something of worth could well happen, were this Neko Majin Z or another extreme gag manga. As-is, she would be massacred and fridge'd in such a brutal way that it wouldn't fit Dragon Ball at all, it would make the Spopovich beatdown look like a mild tickle session.

As for Kale and Caulifla, I have to agree that both are insanely boring characters, even though I can see the Yuri slant they have going on attracting a particular subset of people. One is literally just Fem!WorstBroli and the other is just... I don't even know, they have no meat on the bone, character-wise, that's useful to be explored.

Pan, Cheelai and Macki are actual characters, though.
I'm personally hoping all three will have good content for us going forward, Pan especially.

[MasenkoHA]

What an extremely bizarre hill to die on.

Videl taking on Buu and doing something of worth could well happen, were this Neko Majin Z or another extreme gag manga. As-is, she would be massacred and fridge'd in such a brutal way that it wouldn't fit Dragon Ball at all, it would make the Spopovich beatdown look like a mild tickle session.

I don't think Videl needs to take on Boo but she also didn't need to get her ass beat and then spend the rest of the story crying over Gohan after Spopovitch apparently beat the personality out of her.

As for Kale and Caulifla, I have to agree that both are insanely boring characters, even though I can see the Yuri slant they have going on attracting a particular subset of people. One is literally just Fem!WorstBroli and the other is just... I don't even know, they have no meat on the bone, character-wise, that's useful to be explored.

They're also the first proper female fighters we got in a series that's notoriously a sausage fest even by shonen standards (depending on if you count 18 and her like 1 and half fight in the original manga) so there's that

In a series where most of the notable female characters eventual default is Housewife and babymaker, Caulifla not having any time for that shit and just wanting to see how far her Saiyan strength goes is refeshing in and of itself. She's basically girl Goku in that she has no time for respect and manners and just wants to get stronger. And it's not like Dragon Ball is known for its complex character.

Kale is Broli except I actually give a shit about her BPD crush on Caulifla and not just grrr I strong and Goku made me cry as a baby.

Pan, Cheelai and Macki are actual characters, though.
I'm personally hoping all three will have good content for us going forward, Pan especially.

I genuinely couldn't tell you a thing about Cheelai other than nice and soft spot for Broccoli.

[JulieYBM]

I can't tell you anything about Mackai other than she was in two arcs that suck shit and probably got sexually harassed or assaulted.

Women exist solely for Toriyama and Toyo-tarou to shit on, and that's probably a thing we should keep criticizing.

[tonysoprano300]

The cheapening of Super Saiyan, which was supposed to be this mythical concept by giving it to Goten and Trunks is one aspect of the Boo arc that I can't defend. Though the same could be said about the Cell arc with Gohan even though he was a few years older.

I think it works in the Cell arc, my only annoyance is that it was off screen in the manga. But I 100% believe that Gohan would be able to reach SSJ under the guidance of Goku who had the express intent of getting him to become one. Especially in a place like ROSAT.

Admittedly this is one of those times where the anime ran circles around the manga, idk why Toriyama skips the core development stuff for Gohan repeatedly.

[SupremeKai25]

The hate for Caulifla/Kale/Kefla is 99% misogyny. I know this for a fact, because the Universe 6 arc aired one year before the Tournament of Power arc and Cabba didn't get a fraction of the hate that Caulifla/Kale/Kefla got.

I'm sure some people have legitimate grievances with the writing, but then I'd also expect you to criticize Goten, Trunks, and Cabba.

As far as I'm concerned, Anime Kefla is one of the coolest and most entertaining fighters that DBS showcased.






You know, people always say that women should have better representation in this industry, so why do you people never praise Super's portrayal of the Saiyan Girls? Kefla literally gave Ultra Instinct, the super duper uber final form of the arc, a run for his money. Both Caulifla and Kale are given their independent story arcs and their own unique values and character beliefs. They grow through each other, unlike Videl who is just an appendage to Gohan's character.

[super michael]

The hate for Caulifla/Kale/Kefla is 99% misogyny. I know this for a fact, because the Universe 6 arc aired one year before the Tournament of Power arc and Cabba didn't get a fraction of the hate that Caulifla/Kale/Kefla got.

I'm sure some people have legitimate grievances with the writing, but then I'd also expect you to criticize Goten, Trunks, and Cabba.

As far as I'm concerned, Anime Kefla is one of the coolest and most entertaining fighters that DBS showcased.






You know, people always say that women should have better representation in this industry, so why do you people never praise Super's portrayal of the Saiyan Girls? Kefla literally gave Ultra Instinct, the super duper uber final form of the arc, a run for his money. Both Caulifla and Kale are given their independent story arcs and their own unique values and character beliefs. They grow through each other, unlike Videl who is just an appendage to Gohan's character.

Cabba unlocked SSJ1 through anger, just like how Gohan gained SSJ1 in the ROSAT.
Although there is nothing wrong with how Caulifla/Kale/Kefla gained their Super Saiyan Form since it does involve focus their ki in a certain area in their body.

Caulifla and Kale gained Super Saiyan the smart way. By using their brains, they gained SSJ2. I can see them gaining higher SSJ form this way.


Design wise it doesn't make sense that Cabba, Caulifla and Kale trains and fight but have 0 muscles, outside of SSJ Grade 2 and 3 Caulifla and Berserk Kale. Even as a SSJ they don't have muscles.

As for Kefla she was great, the entire fight was very enjoyable. I have 0 complaint with her and how she fights. Her excitement in improving and discovering new powers was good.

However when it comes to training, there is nothing that shows that they want to train with others more powerful and skillful than themselves.


Goten and Trunks has no problem training with others more powerful and skillful than themselves and they are willing to train in special places.
Plus they are the first Saiyan born from SSJ parents.

Bra and Pan should have higher potential than Goten and Trunks, they are born from higher than SSJ1 level parents.

[SupremeKai25]

Cabba unlocked SSJ1 through anger, just like how Gohan gained SSJ1 in the ROSAT.

As did Kale. She gained Super Saiyan through anger after Cabba bullied her.

Caulifla didn't gain it through anger, which is also fine and doesn't break the lore. There is no evidence that Kid Trunks gained Super Saiyan through anger, and the first time he uses it on-screen was because he wanted Vegeta to take him to the park.

So the idea that anger is required to access Super Saiyan is disproven by Kid Trunks in the Buu saga. If you disagree, you're welcome to prove that Kid Trunks got SS1 through anger.

Design wise it doesn't make sense that Cabba, Caulifla and Kale trains and fight but have 0 muscles, outside of SSJ Grade 2 and 3 Caulifla and Berserk Kale. Even as a SSJ they don't have muscles.

They are slim because Toriyama wanted to highlight the fact that they are a different group of Saiyans. It's also the reason why Cabba's armour looks different from Bardock and his friends', to highlight the difference between the Sadala military force and the Vegeta military force. It's good world-building. There's nothing more to it.

[super michael]

As did Kale. She gained Super Saiyan through anger after Cabba bullied her.

Caulifla didn't gain it through anger, which is also fine and doesn't break the lore. There is no evidence that Kid Trunks gained Super Saiyan through anger, and the first time he uses it on-screen was because he wanted Vegeta to take him to the park.

So the idea that anger is required to access Super Saiyan is disproven by Kid Trunks in the Buu saga. If you disagree, you're welcome to prove that Kid Trunks got SS1 through anger.

I actually like the idea how Caulifla gained SSJ1 and SSJ2, not through anger but focusing her ki in a area in her body.

Kale you are right, it was through anger, however she knew about focusing her ki on her back. So a combination of both things.

It is unknown how Goten and Trunks gained SSJ, for some reason no one knew they had it. This is really strange, since how did no one sense their power at all.
When Nappa and Vegeta landed on earth, everyone could sense them.

They are slim because Toriyama wanted to highlight the fact that they are a different group of Saiyans. It's also the reason why Cabba's armour looks different from Bardock and his friends', to highlight the difference between the Sadala military force and the Vegeta military force. It's good world-building. There's nothing more to it.

Being slim is fine, that does make them different than Universe 7 Saiyan. However couldn't they have muscles and be slim?

I have no problem with wearing different clothes from Universe 7. Actually Vegeta does say Universe 7 used to wear the same clothes as Universe 6 Saiyan, that is until Freeza was in control of the Saiyans.

[SupremeKai25]

It is unknown how Goten and Trunks gained SSJ, for some reason no one knew they had it. This is really strange, since how did no one sense their power at all.
When Nappa and Vegeta landed on earth, everyone could sense them.

Goten got Super Saiyan after Chi Chi kicked him in a training session and made him angry. Or was this anime filler?

Either way, Goten and Trunks arguably got Super Saiyan more easily and quickly than Cabba, Caulifla, and Kale. Vegeta even pointed out in the BUU SAGA that the Super Saiyan form was cheapened. People just have short memories to think this phenomenon only started in Super.

Being slim is fine, that does make them different than Universe 7 Saiyan. However couldn't they have muscles and be slim?

No, they couldn't, because then they'd be too similar to the Main universe's Saiyans.

The point of the U6 Saiyans is that they are supposed to feel "alien" to Goku and Vegeta, the PoV Saiyans. So they are slim and without visible muscles in their relaxed forms.

It's actually good world-building and an efficient way to showcase that these Saiyans from another universe have an entirely different culture and history compared to our PoV Saiyans.

[MasenkoHA]

The u6 unique slim designs seem way less "world building" and more Toriyama recycling Table's design for Cabba, which makes sense since Cabba takes a lil brother role to Vegeta. Caulifla and Kale have similar thin waif designs to be consistent with the look Cabba established and it's not like Toriyama likes his muscle mommies, 18 and Chi Chi weren't exactly sporting muscles either.

[Majin Buu]

I don't think the reaction to Goten and Trunks being Super Saiyans would be as bad as the reaction to Caulifla and Kale. MasenkoHA is right, the misogyny is the real kicker there.

Indeed.

While people did- and still do- complain about Goten and Trunks getting it easily, I feel like it's never been that much of a sticking point with them. Those that don't care for it just kind of accept it and move on despite not liking it, and I think it's because they nonetheless have expectations for those characters (passing the torch to the next generation and whatnot).

With Caulifla and Kale, it's more of a sticking point that the detractors just can't seem to get past. This is where I think the misogyny comes into play. With Goten and Trunks it's like- people complained that they got it easily, but it never felt like those people were quitely arguing that they shouldn't have it at all. With the Saiyan girls, it feels like that's the quiet part that isn't being said when the complaints about them come up- That they shouldn't have it at all because they didn't reach it the proper way, the way the guys did it (and sometimes its not even all that quiet).

And this despite the fact that there's an implicit element of the old generation building bridges with the younger generation at play when Goku fights them.

They would inevitably complain about Videl being antagonistic towards male characters, though.

I remember finding it weird when I started seeing some people on here describing Videl in ways that come off like the implicit argument being made to justify her sidelining is that "she needed to be put in her place because she's nowhere near Goku and co" along with negative descriptions of her assertive personality. I've personally always found that charming about her so it felt weird to start coming across people describing that quality in negative terms in relation to her. It made me suspect that this was probably a sentiment that's always existed in some form and I just happened to never run into those types before.