Why is there (or actually is there...?) so much toxic fanon in the Dragon Ball fandom?

[TechExpert2021]

Personally I blame the Funimation dub and the Bruce Faulconer score.

I think both have contributed to the misconception that Dragon Ball Z was an "edgy" show for teenagers wanting to feel like an adults, but not necessarily the toxicity.

The anti-Nozawa/Japanese version crowd likely would have existed with any English cast version because Dragon Ball became so popular the fandom would have become attached to any English cast.

Is the hate or dislike towards Nozawa and the Japanese version still prevalent in the English-speaking Dragon Ball fandom, even in 2024? Has it died down nowadays?

[WittyUsername]

Personally I blame the Funimation dub and the Bruce Faulconer score.

I think both have contributed to the misconception that Dragon Ball Z was an "edgy" show for teenagers wanting to feel like an adults, but not necessarily the toxicity.

The anti-Nozawa/Japanese version crowd likely would have existed with any English cast version because Dragon Ball became so popular the fandom would have become attached to any English cast.

Is the hate or dislike towards Nozawa and the Japanese version still prevalent in the English-speaking Dragon Ball fandom, even in 2024? Has it died down nowadays?

I’ve been under the impression that it’s died down quite a bit in the past decade in lieu of how many English speaking fans watched DBS in Japanese.

[KorgDTR2000]

On the subject of Vegeta’s redemption, I think what really bugs me is how a lot of fans act as if he had a tragic upbringing and that Freeza ruined his life (which was little more than a dubism), when the evidence would suggest otherwise. By all accounts, Vegeta was an evil little bastard even by Saiyan standards, and he didn’t give a crap about the death of his people, or even his family, other than the fact that it gave him no one to rule over. If he truly cared about preserving the Saiyan race, he wouldn’t have gleefully killed Nappa for an incredibly flimsy reason.

The only reason Vegeta even hated Freeza was because working for him damaged his ego. He wasn’t out to avenge his people. He wanted to kill Freeza so he could be top dog. That’s not sympathetic, which is why I always roll my eyes when people complain about how Goku “stole” Vegeta’s kill in RF.

Vegeta also never expressed any actual remorse over his actions, at least not in the original series, nor did he have to face any consequences. He’s just accepted as part of the group, and even gets to have his own family. Piccolo and Majin Boo honestly have more believable redemption arcs than him.

It's kind of a weird trend in Dragon Ball. Villains become good guys, but they don't necessarily atone for their villainy. They just stop doing bad things and start doing good things.

The three biggest examples of a reformed villain in DB are Piccolo, Vegeta and Boo.

Piccolo is the Demon King who killed countless people and condemned their souls to an eternity in limbo. In a way, Piccolo is the worst of these villains because as is eventually revealed, the afterlife is a pretty nice place to be and being dead isn't really such a bad thing. Piccolo's victims never got that peace. Now, how much Piccolo is a reincarnation versus offspring is never really clear, and therefore how responsible Piccolo is for the Demon King's actions is never really clear, but there is at least something shared between them spiritually, and they are for intents and purposes the same person.

Piccolo's redemption is complicated by the fact that he not only rejoins with God, but he also merges with Nail. So there are at least three biological changes that influence his transition into a wholly good person.

Boo doesn't even realize he's being evil, and just decides to stop when told he shouldn't be... but then the actual agency of his change of heart ceases to matter, because all of the evil is pulled out of his body and (eventually) destroyed. So the redeemed Boo was never really responsible for his actions anyway.

Then there's Vegeta... Of the three, he alone experiences no physical transformation to assist his redemption. His redemption happens almost accidentally. His obsession with killing Freeza ends with Freeza's death, but his intentions on taking over Freeza's empire are sidelined in favor of his new obsession, surpassing Goku. And his single-minded determined to beat Goku distracts him from being actively evil, although still entirely callous and uncaring about other people. His only glimmer of humanity comes about after spending two years in isolation with his son. That glimmer, combined with Goku's death ending their rivalry, leads to Vegeta being content with a peaceful life on Earth. So he's gone from being actively evil to circumstantially evil to not really evil. It's only when he throws his family away and tries to become evil again that he realizes he's changed.... and unlike the other two characters he actually shows remorse for his actions, taking responsibility and apologizing. And while he continues to be a selfish prick towards the end of the arc, he is not an evil prick. When it comes time to use the Dragon Balls, he alone of all villains wants to use them to resurrect his own victims.

He's a character defined by a monstrous ego, but Vegeta's redemption goes hand-in-hand with his rejection of ego. He sacrifices himself knowing he will be reborn into a new person without memories. He is willing to permanently fuse and sacrifice his independent personality to stop Boo. He risks cessation of existence by fighting Boo to stall for Goku. And when he engineers the wish at the end he includes his victims but not himself, again resigning himself to a fate of non-existence.

It seems like morality in Dragon Ball overall is defined not by what you have done but by what you make of the future. These three characters were monsters but in the end they saved more lives than they killed, by orders of magnitude.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I think both have contributed to the misconception that Dragon Ball Z was an "edgy" show for teenagers wanting to feel like an adults, but not necessarily the toxicity.

The anti-Nozawa/Japanese version crowd likely would have existed with any English cast version because Dragon Ball became so popular the fandom would have become attached to any English cast.

Is the hate or dislike towards Nozawa and the Japanese version still prevalent in the English-speaking Dragon Ball fandom, even in 2024? Has it died down nowadays?

I’ve been under the impression that it’s died down quite a bit in the past decade in lieu of how many English speaking fans watched DBS in Japanese.

It has, especially with characters like Goku Black where fans watched for the first time with no point of reference for how he should sound. Sean Schemmel's work as Goku Black was probably what fans would have expected (a slightly more sinister version of his Goku voice) but I get the impression fans are more lukewarm about it. I like both but feel Schemmel's Goku Black is missing a bit of the eloquence Nozawa had. I also think the Xenoverse voice threw people off as the base voice was too gruff and Rose felt like it was trying too hard to sound British.

[WittyUsername]

Is the hate or dislike towards Nozawa and the Japanese version still prevalent in the English-speaking Dragon Ball fandom, even in 2024? Has it died down nowadays?

I’ve been under the impression that it’s died down quite a bit in the past decade in lieu of how many English speaking fans watched DBS in Japanese.

It has, especially with characters like Goku Black where fans watched for the first time with no point of reference for how he should sound. Sean Schemmel's work as Goku Black was probably what fans would have expected (a slightly more sinister version of his Goku voice) but I get the impression fans are more lukewarm about it. I like both but feel Schemmel's Goku Black is missing a bit of the eloquence Nozawa had. I also think the Xenoverse voice threw people off as the base voice was too gruff and Rose felt like it was trying too hard to sound British.

Yeah. From what I remember back in 2016, Goku Black was always an extremely popular character, and a large part of that was how sinister Masako Nozawa made him sound. I would think there’s a reason that the word “ningen” has become something of a meme in the fandom.

[hembro]

I think in the case of Dragon Ball it's not really any better or worse than other fandoms in toxicity but I think a lot of what causes it in DB specifically these days is every discussion about it seems to be people arguing about canon or basic power scaling and who vs who would win. It's always had these types of debates and conversations but I think this revival period has made it a little worse, largely by the fact we got a new show that ignored the prior canon debate punching bag, adapting the prior 2 movies but differently, then a comic version that adapted that show also differently, then another new show that's probably not contradicting the last one specifically but largely just ignoring it by the time period it's set in and not adapting the later arcs of the new comic.

and also in all this new material there's tons of new transformations and other shit like that for people to argue over what's stronger/who's stronger, and in other media like heroes it shoves all these different things together.

Mainly as far as I'm concerned as long as something is good I really don't care whether it's contradictory but a lot of people do really care and have to make it all click and if it doesn't just disregard it or argue about it without ever getting to any sort of conclusion. which is fair to care about but it all basically comes down to personal preference so this type of argument probably seems more toxic because a lot of these debates are the unstoppable force and immovable object.

basically I guess my point is I think because we've had a period where tons of stuff has come out that isn't all compatible with each other people argue more about stuff using examples from one thing that isn't in the other and so it seems worse than it actually is because it's mostly people arguing about what is their dragon ball so it comes from a really personal place and people get really mad about it.

[AliTheZombie13]

I think in the case of Dragon Ball it's not really any better or worse than other fandoms in toxicity but I think a lot of what causes it in DB specifically these days is every discussion about it seems to be people arguing about canon or basic power scaling and who vs who would win. It's always had these types of debates and conversations but I think this revival period has made it a little worse, largely by the fact we got a new show that ignored the prior canon debate punching bag, adapting the prior 2 movies but differently, then a comic version that adapted that show also differently, then another new show that's probably not contradicting the last one specifically but largely just ignoring it by the time period it's set in and not adapting the later arcs of the new comic.

"People who enjoy Dragon Ball GT, please understand that your opinions, just like the show itself along with your entire life, is worthless and will never matter to the source material." - A YouTube comment I once saw in a DB fanpage that had over 10k likes.

[hembro]

I think in the case of Dragon Ball it's not really any better or worse than other fandoms in toxicity but I think a lot of what causes it in DB specifically these days is every discussion about it seems to be people arguing about canon or basic power scaling and who vs who would win. It's always had these types of debates and conversations but I think this revival period has made it a little worse, largely by the fact we got a new show that ignored the prior canon debate punching bag, adapting the prior 2 movies but differently, then a comic version that adapted that show also differently, then another new show that's probably not contradicting the last one specifically but largely just ignoring it by the time period it's set in and not adapting the later arcs of the new comic.

"People who enjoy Dragon Ball GT, please understand that your opinions, just like the show itself along with your entire life, is worthless and will never matter to the source material." - A YouTube comment I once saw in a DB fanpage that had over 10k likes.

I'm not surprised, I'm not a huge GT fan, has it's moments but really even if I thought it was awful who gives a damn if someone else likes a tv show? I think the fact super just can't work with GT was kind of opening the door for the loudest GT haters to celebrate and act like they won a fight that was wasting time to begin with. it's just it's own thing. same thing with the new stuff. I get wanting things to work or build on what came before, and its probably largely due to not personally really liking the direction we've had since the revival but I think you just have to look at them as separate projects. and Super coming out and "overriding" GT really opened the floodgates to all this negative arguments over what counts where and how much anything counts, etc.

back in the day we had the movies and none of them really fit together with anything else and nobody really gave a shit. people would argue over whether some of them work at all in the main story or together amongst themselves but it wasn't as big of a deal as people make all of this now with Super, BoG, RF, Super Manga, Daima, etc.

[AliTheZombie13]

I'm not surprised, I'm not a huge GT fan, has it's moments but really even if I thought it was awful who gives a damn if someone else likes a tv show? I think the fact super just can't work with GT was kind of opening the door for the loudest GT haters to celebrate and act like they won a fight that was wasting time to begin with. it's just it's own thing. same thing with the new stuff. I get wanting things to work or build on what came before, and its probably largely due to not personally really liking the direction we've had since the revival but I think you just have to look at them as separate projects. and Super coming out and "overriding" GT really opened the floodgates to all this negative arguments over what counts where and how much anything counts, etc.

back in the day we had the movies and none of them really fit together with anything else and nobody really gave a shit. people would argue over whether some of them work at all in the main story or together amongst themselves but it wasn't as big of a deal as people make all of this now with Super, BoG, RF, Super Manga, Daima, etc.

I'm perfectly fine with GT being an Alternate Continuity, a "grand side story" or whatever you want to call it. In fact, I have accepted it ages ago. And I know most people are going to hate the fuck out of it by principle, but damn, how out of touch with reality someone gotta be if they need to call people "worthless" for enjoying a bedtime story made for little kids? "My bedtime story made for little kids is better than yours!!!!"

[SupremeKai25]

I think in the case of Dragon Ball it's not really any better or worse than other fandoms in toxicity but I think a lot of what causes it in DB specifically these days is every discussion about it seems to be people arguing about canon or basic power scaling and who vs who would win. It's always had these types of debates and conversations but I think this revival period has made it a little worse, largely by the fact we got a new show that ignored the prior canon debate punching bag, adapting the prior 2 movies but differently, then a comic version that adapted that show also differently, then another new show that's probably not contradicting the last one specifically but largely just ignoring it by the time period it's set in and not adapting the later arcs of the new comic.

"People who enjoy Dragon Ball GT, please understand that your opinions, just like the show itself along with your entire life, is worthless and will never matter to the source material." - A YouTube comment I once saw in a DB fanpage that had over 10k likes.

"Dragon Ball Super has always been trash" - 163K views

"Dragon Ball Super - The Biggest Disaster in Anime" - 105K views

"I Do Not Like Dragon Ball Super" - 1M views

"How GT understood Dragon Ball (and Super didn't)" - 286K views

"How Dragon Ball Super KILLED Power Scaling" - 363k views (Ah yes, and btw we'll ignore that every generic Frieza Force mook oneshots the Demon King)

"Super Saiyan Blue is trash" - 108K views

"The Character Assassination of Son Goku" - 775K views

So? You do realize Super is hated way more than GT, right?

GT, like the Cell and Majin Buu saga which were also very, VERY hated on this very forum (I have the threads from the early 2000s saved, LOL!), benefits from the 1990s Childhood Nostalgia. Super doesn't.

Furthermore, there's a phenomenon called "recency bias" that makes the predictable human mind place way more relevance and focus on recent events than older ones. Case in point, people complaining about Super scaling like the Original didn't turn the legendary warrior form into a Christmas bargain sale for kids.

Super is way more hated than GT. That's been the case since 2015. And it's evident here too.

[super michael]

I didn't realize there was many negative videos about DBS being hated. However DBS does deserve the hate that it gets. It has nothing to do with "recency bias".

As for the SSJ Bargain Sale, lets not forget that Goten and Trunks are the first Saiyans born from actual SSJ parents. In Trunks case he trained with Vegeta and then sparred with Goten.
Goten trained with Chi Chi, Trunks and Gohan later on. Chi Chi is good at hand to hand combat.

I am not a old member here, so I don't know what used to be discussed back in the days.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I didn't realize there was many negative videos about DBS being hated. However DBS does deserve the hate that it gets. It has nothing to do with "recency bias".

As for the SSJ Bargain Sale, lets not forget that Goten and Trunks are the first Saiyans born from actual SSJ parents. In Trunks case he trained with Vegeta and then sparred with Goten.
Goten trained with Chi Chi, Trunks and Gohan later on. Chi Chi is good at hand to hand combat.

I am not a old member here, so I don't know what used to be discussed back in the days.

Being the new hotness makes a piece of media an easy target. A lot of YouTubers probably think why make a video trashing a series from 25+ years ago (GT) when they can do it on a more recent show (Super) that has had more exposure since its debut nearly 10 years ago.

That said, ironically I don't see as much hate directed towards Daima. Maybe it's because fans are more lukewarm about it compared to Super, which generally gave fans what they wanted from a Dragon Ball Z sequel (or interquel).

[super michael]

I didn't realize there was many negative videos about DBS being hated. However DBS does deserve the hate that it gets. It has nothing to do with "recency bias".

As for the SSJ Bargain Sale, lets not forget that Goten and Trunks are the first Saiyans born from actual SSJ parents. In Trunks case he trained with Vegeta and then sparred with Goten.
Goten trained with Chi Chi, Trunks and Gohan later on. Chi Chi is good at hand to hand combat.

I am not a old member here, so I don't know what used to be discussed back in the days.

Being the new hotness makes a piece of media an easy target. A lot of YouTubers probably think why make a video trashing a series from 25+ years ago (GT) when they can do it on a more recent show (Super) that has had more exposure since its debut nearly 10 years ago.

That said, ironically I don't see as much hate directed towards Daima. Maybe it's because fans are more lukewarm about it compared to Super, which generally gave fans what they wanted from a Dragon Ball Z sequel (or interquel).

I enjoy Daima because the gag are funny, they don't go out of their way to make Goku look dumb. Goku doesn't do anything that contradicts what he learned in DB/DBZ.

DBS their main priority was to make Goku dumb and bossy, regardless if it made sense. Even in DBS Super Hero they got carried away making Goku dumb, even though he only appeared for a short time. He didn't act like Goku at all, he acted like a completely different character who is bossy and a total amateur.
He accused Vegeta of being lazy and being a liar. He didn't know what meditation was or about using his powers efficiently, that is a huge contradiction.

Then there is the whole Boo being unreliable and falling asleep. The whole Goten and Trunks wants to train, fight, help and compete only to forbid them and keeping secrets.

[SupremeKai25]

Does GT deserve the hate it gets?

Or does this apply only to Super?

[super michael]

Does GT deserve the hate it gets?

Or does this apply only to Super?

GT writing was still good, even though it has its flaws.

DBS writing was just plain bad, increasing the characters flaws to maximum level and even contradicting how they act and what they learned.
They erased character development and experience that they gained. They lose common sense and wisdom that they gained.

Goku = Terrible
Chi Chi = Terrible
Boo = Terrible
Goten = Forbidden
Trunks = Forbidden


DBS = Ben 10 Omniverse

[SupremeKai25]

I didn't realize there was many negative videos about DBS being hated. However DBS does deserve the hate that it gets. It has nothing to do with "recency bias".

As for the SSJ Bargain Sale, lets not forget that Goten and Trunks are the first Saiyans born from actual SSJ parents. In Trunks case he trained with Vegeta and then sparred with Goten.
Goten trained with Chi Chi, Trunks and Gohan later on. Chi Chi is good at hand to hand combat.

I am not a old member here, so I don't know what used to be discussed back in the days.

Being the new hotness makes a piece of media an easy target. A lot of YouTubers probably think why make a video trashing a series from 25+ years ago (GT) when they can do it on a more recent show (Super) that has had more exposure since its debut nearly 10 years ago.

That said, ironically I don't see as much hate directed towards Daima. Maybe it's because fans are more lukewarm about it compared to Super, which generally gave fans what they wanted from a Dragon Ball Z sequel (or interquel).

Or it's because Daima is way less popular than Super.

I suppose I should expect Super to be so hated. After all, Super was one of the most popular and mainstream Anime series in the entire 2010s decade.

[TechExpert2021]

DBS = Ben 10 Omniverse

Does DBS also = the Ben 10 2017 reboot?

[super michael]

DBS = Ben 10 Omniverse

Does DBS also = the Ben 10 2017 reboot?

Ben 10 Omniverse is a sequel of Ben 10 Ultimate Alien. It is inferior in every way possible
Dragon Ball Super is the sequel of the Boo Saga. It is inferior in every way possible

Ben 10 Reboot has no connnection to the previous Ben 10, that is why I didn't mention it even though it is inferior except for Vilgax.
Same with TTG it has no connection to Teen Titans, even though it is inferior.

I didn't realize there was many negative videos about DBS being hated. However DBS does deserve the hate that it gets. It has nothing to do with "recency bias".

As for the SSJ Bargain Sale, lets not forget that Goten and Trunks are the first Saiyans born from actual SSJ parents. In Trunks case he trained with Vegeta and then sparred with Goten.
Goten trained with Chi Chi, Trunks and Gohan later on. Chi Chi is good at hand to hand combat.

I am not a old member here, so I don't know what used to be discussed back in the days.

Being the new hotness makes a piece of media an easy target. A lot of YouTubers probably think why make a video trashing a series from 25+ years ago (GT) when they can do it on a more recent show (Super) that has had more exposure since its debut nearly 10 years ago.

That said, ironically I don't see as much hate directed towards Daima. Maybe it's because fans are more lukewarm about it compared to Super, which generally gave fans what they wanted from a Dragon Ball Z sequel (or interquel).

Or it's because Daima is way less popular than Super.

I suppose I should expect Super to be so hated. After all, Super was one of the most popular and mainstream Anime series in the entire 2010s decade.

Being popular or unpopular has no influence if something is good or bad. I judge it for what it is, not by how popular it is.


Dragon Ball = good
Dragon Ball Z = good
Dragon Ball GT = good but has flaws
Dragon Ball Super = bad far too many flaws
Dragon Ball Daima = incomplete but good at the moment


The way the characters acted like in DBS, it is like they never read Dragon Ball at all or watch Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z.

[AliTheZombie13]

So? You do realize Super is hated way more than GT, right? [...]

...I never said it wasn't, and quite frankly, that wasn't the point of my post.
I might despise Super, but I would never demean someone who liked it.
If it brings happiness to their lives, who the fuck am I to bring that down?

[super michael]

So? You do realize Super is hated way more than GT, right? [...]

...I never said it wasn't, and quite frankly, that wasn't the point of my post.
I might despise Super, but I would never demean someone who liked it.
If it brings happiness to their lives, who the fuck am I to bring that down?

I agree with you, if a person enjoys watching DBS, then there is nothing wrong with that.

However I have seen people say things like DBS flaws are the same like DBZ, which isn't true at all. They say that, just to defend DBS.