Would removing Neva's macguffin Super Saiyan 4 fix Daima for you?

[angeldreamZ004]

I'm pretty sure Vegeta's inclusion is less a reaction to GT, and more just him being revival era Dragon Ball's second main character.

Agreed. And if you want to take the Revival Era's current state, then it's Goku + Vegeta + Piccolo + Gohan. But Gohan was absent for whatever reason, so they had to bring up another character to somehow "replace" him, who ended up being Nahare.

[Zephyr]

I'm pretty sure Vegeta's inclusion is less a reaction to GT, and more just him being revival era Dragon Ball's second main character.

Agreed. And if you want to take the Revival Era's current state, then it's Goku + Vegeta + Piccolo + Gohan. But Gohan was absent for whatever reason, so they had to bring up another character to somehow "replace" him, who ended up being Nahare.

I think Gohan's absence is a symptom of people just really not caring that much about writing stories with or about Gohan anymore. Outside of Super Hero, he's basically been replaced by Vegeta as the series' secondary protagonist since Boo absorbed him in 1994.

[angeldreamZ004]

I think Gohan's absence is a symptom of people just really not caring that much about writing stories with or about Gohan anymore. Outside of Super Hero, he's basically been replaced by Vegeta as the series' secondary protagonist since Boo absorbed him in 1994.

I'll go harder on that "people" part and straight up say that Toriyama himself is one of them, because he wasn't interested in making Super Hero a movie about Gohan. So Gohan fans really need to thank Akio Iyoku, because that was his idea lol

[JulieYBM]

Children have weaker bodies than adults, so I'm not sure where the confusion on that is. Even if their ki reserves didn't change, the characters still need bodies strong enough to use said ki.

Nobody really explaining the logic that the series is using for this in the scripts is, of course, kind of a problem.

[Yuli Ban]

Children have weaker bodies than adults, so I'm not sure where the confusion on that is. Even if their ki reserves didn't change, the characters still need bodies strong enough to use said ki.

It sounds like I'm overcomplicating it, but it's straightforward to me
Yes, children have weaker bodies and a disadvantage at fighting adults, and Goku in GT was technically wished back to his younger self
But... the show then proceeded to not commit to that. Or only half commit to it, rather, precisely in that we could see multiple times he was clearly able to call on the full extent of his power if he wanted to, and him not being able to do so just so happened to coincide with exactly the points where "there'd be no peril if he did that, and you can't have a grand touring adventure without peril!"
(What I remember most: he can totally use Super Saiyan to get out of a sticky situation, but as for actually using it to resolve said situation, well of course not because then there'd be no stakes or story... until he does)

Then, later in that same series, he's still effortlessly above every other character (case in point: him punching Super 17 across the entire planet when even Vegeta and Gohan couldn't make him flinch)
I don't mind the idea "he regained his full strength by then," again it's more that it doesn't work in early GT because it's utterly inconsistent as to just what he can do and often arbitrarily "he can't do this classic move!" (except he can, an episode later)

In GT's case, they should have fully committed to "Goku is a kid again" if they wanted to let the show have stakes, as in "sure he can use Super Saiyan 3, but it's the equivalent of the Pilaf arc Goku using Super Saiyan 3: oh wow, watch out, now he can stalemate Nappa!)" which at least means he can't punch his way through everything if all the other characters are well above that. Of course you still have Trunks there, so it's probably irrelevant. I'm just saying that adventure stories aren't actually that different from outright action stories. It's more like "the setting is the opponent" rather than another fighter, but Son Goku is so strong that the obstacle can't be something he can easily punch or GT-Kamehameha out of his way, and GT rarely managed to convince me it did that, and Daima didn't even try.

I don't want to sound like I'm 100% negative, I'm just saying why trying to force DB to be an adventure story isn't an automatic win state if there is no consistent logic to how it creates peril or wonder for the characters, and "turn Goku into a kid" is a pretty cheap memberberries gambit if you don't commit to that.

Hope I explained this well enough

(Also, yes, Daima isn't even that, it's literally just "the dragon used Paint.net scale canvas on all the characters")

[BernardoCairo]

I feel Vegeta's inclusion is some sort of correction on GT, which had him absent from most of its run. Had Vegeta been part of GT, I reckon he wouldn't have been a main guy in Daima. And even then, he is not present for like 1/4 of Daima.

Vegeta is indeed horrible in GT.

I think Gohan's absence is a symptom of people just really not caring that much about writing stories with or about Gohan anymore. Outside of Super Hero, he's basically been replaced by Vegeta as the series' secondary protagonist since Boo absorbed him in 1994.

To be fair, I think Vegeta was already more popular even before that. Maybe Gohan got a bit more popular in Japan during the fight against Cell, but overall, Vegeta was almost always a step ahead, and that counts for a lot.
Of course, there's also the fact that Toriyama seems to enjoy writing for Vegeta. In all four arcs of the original manga, Vegeta is usually the character who initiates the conflict, while Gohan is more reactive in general. So, we end up with Vegeta doing a lot of the "dirty work" during the stories. Leading Freeza to Namek, letting Cell go perfect, awakening Majin Boo, etc. Not to mention that he serves as our pov during most of the Namek arc, which probably helped people connect with him.

[Kenji]

Vegeta's character is actually fine in GT for the most part, I'll take him over his still-insecure ass from Super and Daima.
He's just underutilized.

[JulieYBM]

Yeah, I'm really not seeing the problem with Vegeta in Dragon Ball GT. Heck, even the Battle of Gods movie felt more like the Vegeta from GT in that regard, which is what made his part in that film so much more refreshing.

"Guy who has slowed down and learned to not be so fucking aggressive anymore" is, in fact, good character development and should be welcomed. Age and experience change people, let that reflect in the writing of characters!s

[Zephyr]

To be fair, I think Vegeta was already more popular even before that. Maybe Gohan got a bit more popular in Japan during the fight against Cell, but overall, Vegeta was almost always a step ahead, and that counts for a lot.
Of course, there's also the fact that Toriyama seems to enjoy writing for Vegeta. In all four arcs of the original manga, Vegeta is usually the character who initiates the conflict, while Gohan is more reactive in general. So, we end up with Vegeta doing a lot of the "dirty work" during the stories. Leading Freeza to Namek, letting Cell go perfect, awakening Majin Boo, etc. Not to mention that he serves as our pov during most of the Namek arc, which probably helped people connect with him.

Yeah, I'm not denying that he was always a popular character with his own significant pov moments and importance to the plot, but it wasn't until the Boo arc that he became The Second Protagonist. Up until then, it was Gohan, notably in the way the Saiyan arc parallels his and Goku's training, and the way Namek has him being Goku's surrogate on a DB hunt with Bulma and Kuririn (and where Vegeta is still The Second Antagonist until the Ginyu portion). Think about it from a production standpoint: if Goku had permanently exited the story after the Saiyan or Namek arcs, it would not have shifted to being primarily about Vegeta, even if he stuck around as a major character.

[Grimlock]

Vegeta is indeed horrible in GT.

Mind to expand on that?

[Yuji]

If I was building the series from the ground up, I would not have included Vegeta. I'd spend the time developing the Demon World characters more.

That being said, including Vegeta should not have been difficult. Write a character arc! It doesn't even need to be all that big of one. Establish in Episode #1 that he is struggling with guilt from his actions during the Majin Buu arc. When Vegeta comes back into the plot later to help with the journey, have him face his Tamagami foe and be faced with his own limits: despite having spent the last few months training to acquire Super Saiyan 3, Vegeta still struggles with making it combat ready because of his own guilt and doubt. Blooma encourages Vegeta with that casual carefreeness of hers and it helps shake Vegeta out of his own asshole a bit and he resolves to defeat Tamagami #2 without Super Saiyan 3. As a natural result of his own looseness, Vegeta's ki and body instinctually transform him into Super Saiyan 3 as the fight progresses and he finally defeats Tamagami #2.

There, three minutes of thinking up an idea. God knows a story meeting with a series director and other staff and then a couple weeks writing the script would polish the idea even better lol

I'm honestly not sure there's anything else you can write for Vegeta without rehashing stuff. The guilt was already a core part of his arc in the Moro and Granolah arcs, for his actions on Namek and for the overall Saiyan atrocities. The Boo arc already also sorta covered his sins on Earth.

Daima does have the freedom of being a different continuity I suppose but it would feel like seeing something we already saw before.

[JulieYBM]

If I was building the series from the ground up, I would not have included Vegeta. I'd spend the time developing the Demon World characters more.

That being said, including Vegeta should not have been difficult. Write a character arc! It doesn't even need to be all that big of one. Establish in Episode #1 that he is struggling with guilt from his actions during the Majin Buu arc. When Vegeta comes back into the plot later to help with the journey, have him face his Tamagami foe and be faced with his own limits: despite having spent the last few months training to acquire Super Saiyan 3, Vegeta still struggles with making it combat ready because of his own guilt and doubt. Blooma encourages Vegeta with that casual carefreeness of hers and it helps shake Vegeta out of his own asshole a bit and he resolves to defeat Tamagami #2 without Super Saiyan 3. As a natural result of his own looseness, Vegeta's ki and body instinctually transform him into Super Saiyan 3 as the fight progresses and he finally defeats Tamagami #2.

There, three minutes of thinking up an idea. God knows a story meeting with a series director and other staff and then a couple weeks writing the script would polish the idea even better lol

I'm honestly not sure there's anything else you can write for Vegeta without rehashing stuff. The guilt was already a core part of his arc in the Moro and Granolah arcs, for his actions on Namek and for the overall Saiyan atrocities. The Boo arc already also sorta covered his sins on Earth.

Daima does have the freedom of being a different continuity I suppose but it would feel like seeing something we already saw before.

Eh, you can do both and have it still work. The Daima arc could focus on his immediate guilt for the actions he performanced during the Majin Buu arc while the Moro and Granola arcs look back at Namek specifically and generally-speaking. That, of course, requires thinking and planning ahead, but it's certainly possible.

"I recently fucked up and hit rock bottom and I'm learning to find a new normal after resolving to make a big change in my life" for Daima and "My youth was spent causing great harm to others and now I'm trying to figure out how I make amends and internalize what exactly I want to do and fight for now."

Call them 'the beginning' and 'the middle', I guess. The real question is, what's 'the end' going to look like?

[BernardoCairo]

Mind to expand on that?

Underutilized, uninteresting... The writers took the "Kakarotto, you're number 1" scene too literally. Vegeta would never stop trying to be the strongest. He simply recognized that Goku's mentality was superior to his at that moment.
I don't know why they decided to sideline him from the story. It was obvious he still had potential, so much so that they made him relevant again in the final episodes. I believe that in Super (particularly in the manga), he is more interesting.
I liked how Baby took over his body, though.

Yeah, I'm not denying that he was always a popular character with his own significant pov moments and importance to the plot, but it wasn't until the Boo arc that he became The Second Protagonist. Up until then, it was Gohan, notably in the way the Saiyan arc parallels his and Goku's training, and the way Namek has him being Goku's surrogate on a DB hunt with Bulma and Kuririn (and where Vegeta is still The Second Antagonist until the Ginyu portion). Think about it from a production standpoint: if Goku had permanently exited the story after the Saiyan or Namek arcs, it would not have shifted to being primarily about Vegeta, even if he stuck around as a major character.

Yeah, I agree that Gohan was definitely positioned as the second main character. I think his presence served to replace kid Goku, so that Japanese boys could identify more with a specific character in the story. And you're also right in saying that the story started to lean more towards Vegeta during the Boo arc. But, thinking about it, he became increasingly important as the arcs progressed, so it wasn't really something abrupt. I would argue that Vegeta had a more important role during a good section of the Android arc, only being sidelined during the Cell Games to an extent. I think he was the character with the most fights in that arc.

[Grimlock]

Underutilized, uninteresting... The writers took the "Kakarotto, you're number 1" scene too literally. Vegeta would never stop trying to be the strongest. He simply recognized that Goku's mentality was superior to his at that moment.
I don't know why they decided to sideline him from the story. It was obvious he still had potential, so much so that they made him relevant again in the final episodes. I believe that in Super (particularly in the manga), he is more interesting.
I liked how Baby took over his body, though.

He barely appears, so I don't know how he could be "terrible". But yes, he's underutilized. There's that "flaw" (?) you mention, but there's also progression, like, he's the one who suggests fusion in the first place which is something Dragon Ball Super (by virtue of its time placement) should have developed it, but they instead chose to keep the trope of him being against it. I don't remember much, but I don't recall Vegeta wanting to fight alone against the opponents in Dragon Ball GT, which is also something Dragon Ball Super should have built up. It's like most characters are stuck in their Majin Buu saga selves. It's very weird.

"Underutilized" is what I would use for Dragon Ball GT, "terrible" is what I would use for Dragon Ball Super. I would give it a pass to Dragon Ball Daima, again, just by the virtue of its time placement being just one year after Majin Buu saga, though I guess some first seeds toward that development should probably have been planted in Dragon Ball Daima already...

[Zephyr]

Yeah, I agree that Gohan was definitely positioned as the second main character. I think his presence served to replace kid Goku, so that Japanese boys could identify more with a specific character in the story. And you're also right in saying that the story started to lean more towards Vegeta during the Boo arc. But, thinking about it, he became increasingly important as the arcs progressed, so it wasn't really something abrupt. I would argue that Vegeta had a more important role during a good section of the Android arc, only being sidelined during the Cell Games to an extent. I think he was the character with the most fights in that arc.

Yeah, his promotion to second main character was pretty gradual rather than abrupt. Along the way, he definitely was more important than Gohan in the front half of the Cell arc.

I think it's kinda funny how abruptly and totally Gohan is dropped, well below even third main character, once Boo absorbs him. Outside of SH or the odd side story giving him the spotlight, he's just another side character now. Generational fall off.

[BernardoCairo]

He barely appears, so I don't know how he could be "terrible". But yes, he's underutilized. There's that "flaw" (?) you mention, but there's also progression, like, he's the one who suggests fusion in the first place which is something Dragon Ball Super (by virtue of its time placement) should have developed it, but they instead chose to keep the trope of him being against it. I don't remember much, but I don't recall Vegeta wanting to fight alone against the opponents in Dragon Ball GT, which is also something Dragon Ball Super should have built up. It's like most characters are stuck in their Majin Buu saga selves. It's very weird.

I don't buy this argument. As I said before, I think the writers took the phrase "Kakarotto, you're number 1" too literally. Vegeta becoming a family man is a good idea, all subsequent series have explored this in one way or another. But in GT, that's all Vegeta is. They took away the edge of the character. As I said before, Vegeta would never stop trying to be the best. Him adopting Goku's mentality and becoming his equal is the best conclusion for the character, in my opinion.
The Vegeta in Super is not the same as he was in the Majin Boo arc. He cares about family and values ​​people beyond strength, unlike did before. He is Goku's rival, but in a friendly/sportsmanlike way. He's not obsessed like before. But he still wants to be number one, like Goku. This puts him in a middle ground between Majin Boo arc Vegeta and end of Z Vegeta, which I really like. Not to mention that he actually does things in the story. GT Vegeta suggests the fusion dance, but what else does he do? Transform into a Super Saiyajin 4 with Bulma's help? These are good ideas, but they aren't explored enough. And this creates the feeling that, in the end, Vegeta is only there so that Gogeta can appear, since the series focuses exclusively on Goku for 95% of its duration.
I'm not saying that Super Vegeta is perfect either. He is a huge step down from manga Vegeta. I just think GT, in particular, did him dirty.

I think it's kinda funny how abruptly and totally Gohan is dropped, well below even third main character, once Boo absorbs him. Outside of SH or the odd side story giving him the spotlight, he's just another side character now. Generational fall off.

That's true. But, to be honest, the Boo arc constantly switches protagonists. Think about it, even Goten and Trunks were the main characters for a while. It's in the DNA of this arc that things are always changing

[Zephyr]

That's true. But, to be honest, the Boo arc constantly switches protagonists. Think about it, even Goten and Trunks were the main characters for a while. It's in the DNA of this arc that things are always changing

Yeah, the main protagonist does get shuffled in this arc more than any other, though I wouldn't say it's that frequent. Initially, Gohan is the protagonist during the high school stuff. Once Goku re-enters the story, they more or less share the role. Once Gohan goes back to Earth, he's back to the main guy again, but once he's absorbed Goku takes his place (mirroring and inverting Goku conceding against Cell and Gohan taking his place). Vegeta then takes over the number 2 spot (and has never left ).

I hesitate to treat Goten and Trunks as the main characters, even while they fight Boo, because Gohan is still there in the background planning to return. So I think the story is still one with Gohan as the ultimate lead at that point. Sure, the kids' fight gets the story's attention while it's happening, but their stab at Boo is structurally akin to, say, Kuririn getting his fight in the quarter or semi finals in a tournament arc. Of course we're seeing that fight, even if he's not the main character.

[Mr Baggins]

Mind to expand on that?

I'm not the individual you're quoting, but Vegeta is bad for the same reason any of the legacy cast in GT is bad – everyone collectively represents the writers' complete lack of understanding these characters by a pretty wide margin while also being written as blandly as possible. It's one notch above an AI script.

Like, Vegeta himself? Dude's a mellowed out Piccolo 2.0 now without the charm, except for his funny porn stache. The point of his development in the Buu arc was in letting go of his entitlement, which in no way meant dropping his core hobbyist drive, and the Kanzenban ending had to go out of its way to make that clear. In GT, his role as a family man overrides his individuality far more often than it supplements it. This isn't Vegeta at all.

Goku? Now apparently more willing to accept defeat or morally grandstand against a number of major opponents than enjoy a challenging fight. And he's supposedly an experienced fighter with great battle sense that... spams ki blasts against enemies that can absorb ki to become stronger after being explicitly told his enemy can absorb ki to become stronger. This isn't Goku at all.

Pan? Probably the single most insufferable character in the show. Goes from an energetic, enthusiastic martial artist to this absurdly annoying brat for the entire run who was purposely written to be a damsel in distress to prop up other heroes. Just an absolute butchering of the strong little girl we were introduced to in EoZ, and the end result isn't even mildly compelling or fun. This isn't Goku's granddaughter at all.

Majin Buu? Shows up out of nowhere expressly to merge with Uub, a guy he has zero relationship with and zero motivation to fuse because the writers wanted forced melancholy from a goofy pink toddler, effectively making him absent for the rest of the series for a plot point that amounted to nothing anyway. It's actually a bigger insult to the character than having him snooze through certain story arcs in Super. This isn't Majin Buu at all.

Piccolo? Shows up out of nowhere expressly to die on everyone's behalf for more cheap melodrama in the same vein as Buu, except here it makes even less sense; why the fuck does Piccolo of all people need another sacrificial atonement? There's about a million more effective ways to remove the black star balls, as their linked Namekian, without all the weird suicidal ideation shit attached to the writing. This isn't Piccolo at all.

I could go on and on, but these are the most egregious examples.

The ultimate folly of GT is that it tries to cash in on all the emotional investment built up over a series where these characters had things to do for a sequel series where they're given nothing to do, and don't act like themselves, and can't even have halfway decent chemistry with the other characters. The other two sequels, in a broader sense, don't suffer from this. Obviously that's because Toriyama was more involved, but it says a lot that a single interaction between any two characters in Daima tends to be infinitely more entertaining than their entire screentime in GT.

Of all the things Dragon Ball can be, it should never be boring.

[Gapudo]

Pan? Probably the single most insufferable character in the show. Goes from an energetic, enthusiastic martial artist to this absurdly annoying brat for the entire run who was purposely written to be a damsel in distress to prop up other heroes. Just an absolute butchering of the strong little girl we were introduced to in EoZ, and the end result isn't even mildly compelling or fun. This isn't Goku's granddaughter at all.

Uhm, maybe you forgot ChiChi's and Videl's DNA?

[JulieYBM]

I like that Pan doesn't really get along and is kind of shitty in Dragon Ball GT. The problem is that her character really isn't developed all too well and she winds up not getting a ton of growth. The version of Pan from the end of the Dragon Ball comic is so barely defined and just exists to be this sort of platonic idea of "Gokuu's granddaughter" that she doesn't really get to be anything else. As a woman, I kind of just find that really offensive? I'm not clutching my pearls or anything, but I think the general fandom loathing of Pan in Dragon Ball GT kind of just goes to show that a lot of people—mostly men—kind of just balk anytime a girl or a woman doesn't give them the affirmation of validation that they think that they are automatically due as men. We see this sort of thing in media all across the spectrum, not simply in Dragon Ball.

Anyway, Pan should be worse and have more character development to develop and change as the series goes on.