Would removing Neva's macguffin Super Saiyan 4 fix Daima for you?

[angeldreamZ004]

I don't hate the Daima SSJ4 design, but I definitely prefer the GT SSJ4, I'm not a fan of the design changes either. I like the red hair though, so if at least the hands were normal sized with the classic wristbands, I'm pretty sure I would've liked it as much as the original SSJ4. But it's also because I don't really care that much about SSJ4, at least not when compared to the Super transformations, but I at least like it a lot more than SSJ3, both in concept and design. A form that only makes you stronger and drains your energy faster, gives you a very long hair, removes your eyebrows and exposes the forehead even more, nah, very meh to me, SSJ4 is more pleasing visually and has a few interesting things behind it.

If Daima SSJ4 at least had some build up to it, and was explored more, I would've put it at the same level as the Super transformations. I think they could've created a subplot, where Goku believes he can go beyond SSJ3 and trains a lot but can't achieve anything. Then he goes to the Makai, asks if someone can help him, meets Neva, Neva says he can help, but tells him “you have to do this and that first”, it would be a narrative push to convince Goku to work even harder during the adventure.
But they decided to not do that and just brought it out of nowhere. Maybe their intention was to surprise the audience by having Goku say at the end that he was trying to achieve the form? Well, maybe indeed it worked, i'm just not sure if it's the way they expected XD

The highs of the form to me were the awakening scene (Mini) and the Kamehameha with a slightly different look. I wish they gave more unique techniques and attacks to it. GT SSJ4 used the Ryuken Bakuhatsu, bruh.

As for SSJ3 Vegeta, I don't mind that he got it, and I obviously didn't care about it either. After all, we all know the unavoidable pre-determined fate that form is going to face lol.

[Zephyr]

Some stuff I should have written into my previous post, but didn't think to do until after I'd already posted it:

Inconsistencies, contradictions, and plotholes really aren't the helpful clues for continuity that we might hope they are. The Dragon Ball manga has these with itself, yet each chapter of the manga is obviously in the same continuity as the other chapters. The anime has these with itself, especially when it has episodes with material that is later contradicted by the manga which still get adapted into the same show; yet each episode of Dragon Ball Z is obviously in the same continuity as other episodes of Dragon Ball Z.

So, that's not a useful criterion for trying to determine how different works relate to one another. There are three terms I've seen that might be helpful here, each applied to different works. First, there is 別次元 (betsujigen), which can mean "another dimension". It is used by Toriyama in a Daizenshuu 6 interview to describe the Toei movies of the 80's and 90's. Second, there is 外伝 (gàídéń), which can mean "side-story". It is used by Toriyama in the Dragon Box GT “Dragon Book” to describe GT. Finally, there is 正史 (seishi), which can mean "official history", "authentic history", or "true history", and is often translated as "canon". It is used in a press statement promoting Battle of Gods, as well as in a Weekly Shonen Jump spread promoting the Broly movie.

The first two terms are applied in instances where Toriyama describes himself as a fellow audience member to the work in question, and the latter term is applied in instances where Toriyama is coming up with the story himself, and is thus not a fellow audience member. The implication here is that "canonical" works are those whose stories were (in some capacity) cooked up by Toriyama. If we run with that, then the Toei movies and GT are not "canonical", but Battle of Gods and Dragon Ball Super (in its various forms) are. That means that Daima is also "canonical". So: Super and Daima are both part of "Dragon Ball's official history", but that still doesn't mean they're in the same continuity. Super itself has multiple different continuities, and yet they are all "canonical". So even "canon" can't help us answer this question!

Another upshot is that Daima and Super being in different continuities disqualifies neither from being "canonical", and does not render GT anymore "canonical" than it ever was. The term is applied in a way that has no meaningful semantic content beyond simply noting the works whose stories have Toriyama involvement. To call them "canonical" or part of the "official history" is really to place them as a part of Toriyama's "canon" and his creative "official history" (yes I know they're literally calling it "Dragon Ball's official history", but the application of it suggests otherwise).

Vegeta's entire life revolves around training and getting stronger, so reaching Ssj3 was always a logical next step for him that should've happened a lot sooner than it did. I never understood why fans think that Vegeta admitting Goku was better than him meant he was going to stop training and getting stronger; that was never the point of that scene. If anything, that scene showed Vegeta finally understood why Goku succeeded in getting stronger while he struggled, so reaching Ssj3 as fast as he did proves that Vegeta was indeed right in his assessment of the source of Goku's strength. With that said, I'm not the biggest fan of Vegeta just having the form, as I would've liked to see something like GT's 55th episode where Vegeta reflected on his past before attempting to ascend to Ssj4. Don't get me wrong, I really liked how he used Ssj3, but I would've liked to see more story behind it.

I talked about this at length last year. I apologize, but I do not have it in me at the moment to re-state it all. I'll link to my posts though, if you want to see my more full and elaborated thoughts on the matter. The real short of it is that Goku's entire life revolves around training and getting stronger. None of his rivals can say the same, not even Vegeta. In Daima, for instance, Vegeta is willing to bow out of a good fight in order to maintain bathing-with-wife privileges. They are not the same, and so the fruits of their labors should not be the same, let alone Vegeta's fruits being potentially better.

Although, to argue against myself a bit here, I find myself increasingly subscribing to the idea that a lot of weaker characters suddenly and quickly catching up can be interpreted as a manifestation of yin and yang helping to perpetuate each other. As one person breaks boundaries and increases in strength, it becomes easier for others to sort of ride the metaphysical coattails and wake left behind in order to more rapidly increase their strength afterwards. The greater ki/qi of the cosmos ultimately seeks balance. A "raising the water level lifts all boats" kinda thing.

[JulieYBM]

I mean, is it really any different than people learning from others in general? Has health and diet knowledge being shared not led to a general increase in knowledge among people? I don’t see how this can't apply to the fictional fantasy things, like transformations, techniques and general ki manipulation. Characters study what a new character brings to the table and applies it to themselves. Did Gokuu not conceivably do this after seeing Gohan use Super Saiyan 2? Did Gotenks not do this about Super Saiyan 3? Why can't any other character do this for god ki and Ultra Instinct?

[Mr Baggins]

Maybe their intention was to surprise the audience by having Goku say at the end that he was trying to achieve the form? Well, maybe indeed it worked, i'm just not sure if it's the way they expected XD

That was partly the intention, yeah. The form, or at least adult Goku's version of it, is supposed to highlight that Goku was continuing to train offscreen in preparation for tough opponents like Buu and that he also remained one step ahead of Vegeta who had similarly recently achieved Super Saiyan 3. If nothing else, it's in keeping with the character.

It's just nothing totally new per se narratively. I like Daimaku 4 a lot, myself, but mainly for other reasons.

[SylentEcho]

Would removing Neva's macguffin Super Saiyan 4 fix Daima for you?

Yes. SSj4 and SSJ3 Vegeta were probably only made to get clicks and sell merch and mobile game gacha characters. Instead, they could've de-powered them to the point of needing classic Saiyan armour, or their ape forms again.

Also, I didn't much care for the retcons of demon folk and the copy Boo's.

[JulieYBM]

Would removing Neva's macguffin Super Saiyan 4 fix Daima for you?

Yes. SSj4 and SSJ3 Vegeta were probably only made to get clicks and sell merch and mobile game gacha characters. Instead, they could've de-powered them to the point of needing classic Saiyan armour, or their ape forms again.

Also, I didn't much care for the retcons of demon folk and the copy Boo's.

They could have done anything, sure, but the entire purpose of the series is to sell merchandise. It would not exist without new forms to sell. That's how the majority of shit gets funded.

[super michael]

I mean, is it really any different than people learning from others in general? Has health and diet knowledge being shared not led to a general increase in knowledge among people? I don’t see how this can't apply to the fictional fantasy things, like transformations, techniques and general ki manipulation. Characters study what a new character brings to the table and applies it to themselves. Did Gokuu not conceivably do this after seeing Gohan use Super Saiyan 2? Did Gotenks not do this about Super Saiyan 3? Why can't any other character do this for god ki and Ultra Instinct?

The short answer is anyone in Dragon Ball should be able to learn to use God Ki, there is nothing stopping the characters from learning it. A character doesn't need a special bloodline to use God Ki at all. If Master Roshi can use fake Ultra Instinct, then anyone should be able to use it. Now the real Ultra Instinct anyone should be able to gain it with training.

Every character that trained with Master Roshi learned how to do the Kamehameha along with Tenshinhan the rival of Master Roshi school at one point.

[The Dark Knight]

I talked about this at length last year. I apologize, but I do not have it in me at the moment to re-state it all. I'll link to my posts though, if you want to see my more full and elaborated thoughts on the matter.

This comment caught my attention:

I really like Vegeta as a character, he's one of my favorites. But there's plenty of logic in someone recognizing that they've hit their limit and retiring from the race, just like every rival before him.

I've thought for the longest time that Vegeta not reaching Ssj3 in GT was a massive mistake, but this comment has honestly changed my mind about the whole thing, and I now view GT's Vegeta in a new light. I now believe the reason he never reached Ssj3 in GT (even though his body could handle it, as Super Baby 2 was said to be similar to Ssj3 by the Perfect Files) was due to him being a semi-retired fighter. He kept up his training to remain in-shape and be prepared if anything were to happen, but his training was to get stronger within his (at the time) limits, not completely break past them. Once it was clear Goku was outmatched by Omega Shenron, he came out of retirement for one last battle, to push past his limits one last time, not as a Ssj3, but rather a Ssj4. He finally stood alongside Goku as his equal, unlike in Super and Daima where it's become a running gag for him to constantly be one step behind him.

[angeldreamZ004]

Exactly this. That's why I said that Daima, whether it's meant to be connected to Super or not, in-universe there's evidence to say that it's supposed to be, but also evidence for the opposite. It doesn't really matter. The out-universe explanation will always give a different answer.
There are creative heads and views behind these series, so it's up to them to decide if there will be connections, sequels to the stories, etc, and they can create many of them as long as they want. The same thing applies to Toei's old DB + Z + Z Movies + GT canon.
It's also important to note that Toriyama being the “higher authority” he is inside the franchise, obviously there are reasons his thoughts must be considered. He'll take the likes of GT as something separate from his manga. Same goes for other figures like Toyotaro.
GT is canon for sure, but in a different way that Super, Daima, Neko Majin or Online were conceived, but that doesn't make it any less “canonical”, all of them are sequels, but under different concepts and circumstances.

Anyway, thank you for sharing this. Personally I never saw this before, the “Official story” and BoG parts. They really made a “wordplay” between “Anime and Z - Manga Chapters 517 & 518”. I can see what they tried to do, haha.

Yep, it's not the first time. I think this goes back to Vegeta unlocking the SSJ1 in the Androids arc, though It's a form we've already seen and when it comes to new transformations I personally prefer something that has a build up and is more complex in concept, such as the Super (at least most of them) and pre-Boo Arc transformations, but I have no critics or complainments about them wanting to seek that simpler route again with another new transformation (though I have my problems with the likes of Beast Gohan for example)

What confuses me about Daima SSJ4 is how exactly its introduction is supposed to work not only from an in-universe perspective, but especially from an out-universe perspective as well.
Like, okay, Goku was training to achieve it, but does that mean he needed to be in his adult form to transform, and the mini form limited him, or he needed the power up from Neva? I only watched Daima once so I'm not sure if I'm missing something.
In the production, was this a result from a creative conflict? Like, Toriyama wanted to do X and the rest of the team wanted Y after his death? That's why what we got ended up the way it is?
I'm aware that he was involved in the transformation (designs done by him revealed on Genkidamatsuri this year) and also about him finishing the story up until the end, but I also remember hearing that SSJ4 was a request from Iyoku and that there were changes to the latter half of the story. But I couldn't verify this, so I have no idea if it's true. That's all I know, so I wonder what happened.

[Gapudo]

This whole "Toriyama involvement" makes little sense you know. To be honest Toriyama didn't even create Krillin (volume fucking ONE, year 1984), he was created by his editor because the story was boring and needed a rival. If the original 1984 Dragon Ball manga was written entirely by Toriyama it would have been a gag manga much like Dr. Slump. It would have closed after volume 5 probably. Truth is GT is good (with flaws), Super is good (especially the manga, but with flaws), Daima is good (but with flaws), the movies are good (but with flaws). Every piece of work of this amazing franchise is good or at teast decent regardless of what Toriyama did.

[Yuji]

I think Daima has too many issues. Removing SS4 or reworking it would be a good start, though.

Personally I thought SS3 served the same role as 4 just fine. Or something new like a new fusion, maybe Glorio/Shin, Shin/Goku, Glorio/Goku, or all 3 together. Vegeta served almost no purpose in this story and shouldn't have even been it.

[Kenji]

I think Daima has too many issues. Removing SS4 or reworking it would be a good start, though.

Personally I thought SS3 served the same role as 4 just fine. Or something new like a new fusion, maybe Glorio/Shin, Shin/Goku, Glorio/Goku, or all 3 together. Vegeta served almost no purpose in this story and shouldn't have even been it.

The entirety of Team B (Bulma, Vegeta, Piccolo, etc) served no purpose and shouldn't have been in it, to be honest.

[Yuji]

I think Daima has too many issues. Removing SS4 or reworking it would be a good start, though.

Personally I thought SS3 served the same role as 4 just fine. Or something new like a new fusion, maybe Glorio/Shin, Shin/Goku, Glorio/Goku, or all 3 together. Vegeta served almost no purpose in this story and shouldn't have even been it.

The entirety of Team B (Bulma, Vegeta, Piccolo, etc) served no purpose and shouldn't have been in it, to be honest.

I think writing a story about Namekians and not including Piccolo in it would be a mistake but he basically did nothing anyway. I would have liked him to fight Tamagami 2 instead of Vegeta.

[BernardoCairo]

The entirety of Team B (Bulma, Vegeta, Piccolo, etc) served no purpose and shouldn't have been in it, to be honest.

I liked that they didn't include Gohan. If they had nothing to do with him, it's better not to waste time.

I think Piccolo and Vegeta are too iconic to be left out, though. I liked Vegeta, he was funny. But they could have given Piccolo more things to do. It would be nice to see Piccolo learning how to use magic, or something like that.

[The Dark Knight]

Vegeta served almost no purpose in this story and shouldn't have even been it.

The entirety of Team B (Bulma, Vegeta, Piccolo, etc) served no purpose and shouldn't have been in it, to be honest.

I don't want to go back to a world without Ssj3 Vegeta.

[JulieYBM]

If I was building the series from the ground up, I would not have included Vegeta. I'd spend the time developing the Demon World characters more.

That being said, including Vegeta should not have been difficult. Write a character arc! It doesn't even need to be all that big of one. Establish in Episode #1 that he is struggling with guilt from his actions during the Majin Buu arc. When Vegeta comes back into the plot later to help with the journey, have him face his Tamagami foe and be faced with his own limits: despite having spent the last few months training to acquire Super Saiyan 3, Vegeta still struggles with making it combat ready because of his own guilt and doubt. Blooma encourages Vegeta with that casual carefreeness of hers and it helps shake Vegeta out of his own asshole a bit and he resolves to defeat Tamagami #2 without Super Saiyan 3. As a natural result of his own looseness, Vegeta's ki and body instinctually transform him into Super Saiyan 3 as the fight progresses and he finally defeats Tamagami #2.

There, three minutes of thinking up an idea. God knows a story meeting with a series director and other staff and then a couple weeks writing the script would polish the idea even better lol

[Yuli Ban]

If I was building the series from the ground up, I would not have included Vegeta. I'd spend the time developing the Demon World characters more.

I don't mind including Vegeta in Daima, but this:

I'd spend the time developing the Demon World characters more

The fatal flaw of Daima was the complete and utter lack of the "adventure" aspect
A lot of Dragon Ball fans who lament "DeeBeeZee" (i.e. muscle-bound meatheads screaming and glowing, epic manly speeches, more explosions and transformations, intense rock music and T-shirt quotes) overcorrect and exalt a version of Dragon Ball that straight up doesn't even exist except for brief flashes
That of "friends with unique traits going on grand mystical adventures, meeting and exploring new people and places and getting into perilous situations, where strategy and tactics and martial arts overrides raw power"
What they love is the CONCEPT of early Dragon Ball, but which never really existed besides two, arguably three stretches early on. Almost from the word "Go", -ku was already one-shotting most of his enemies with raw force, literally overcoming strategy and tactics by hitting his enemies too hard, and being effortlessly ahead of almost every human.
The VIBES of early Dragon Ball lent itself to "laid back magical mystical adobencha" but the execution never quite got there, because it turns out Japanese readers didn't care for adobencha
And part of the reason isn't because adventure fiction is bad. Just the opposite! It's just that Dragon Ball doesn't work as an adventure story
Cue every die-hard of early DB suddenly clenching their fists in rage

I'm not saying it lacks fun worldbuilding or interesting characters. The problem with Dragon Ball as an adventure story is the main character himself. That was Daima's fundamental and fatal flaw: it reaches for the iconography of adventure without restoring the engine of adventure.

And I'm wanted to ramble about this for a long time

What makes adventure fiction work?

At its oldest pulp/serial/romance level, adventure fiction is not just “characters travel.” Travel is only the visible skeleton. Adventure is built from a few linked pleasures:

One. The hero crosses a threshold into a new, unfamiliar, and (usually) unstable world, so that means they're completely out of their element. Dragon Ball did this, because every environment was new to Son Goku, so we were literally watching him learn that the world existed at all. Hence why the first arc worked as an adventure.
2. The setting is also an opponent, arguably moreso than the people, and again, early DB did this fine, but as soon as Goku could fly (Kinto 'Un) or blow up a mountain if he wanted to, that sense of "setting-based danger started to wane.
Tres: The protagonist must be vulnerable to more than one kind of danger. First arc of DB did this fine.
Finally: Obstacles must be varied.
But actually more finally: There should be a division of labor (most of the time), which means that different characters are useful in different settings. Again, early DB actually excelled at this, since it was based on Journey to the West (which is actually ground zero for the "Five Man Band" trope)

A core sentiment I've always noticed is: peril must feel natural, not author-imposed. THIS. THIS right here is why all "Adobencha Ball" fails for different reasons.

In adventure, danger should seem to arise from the world. The cliff is high because cliffs are high. The jungle is dangerous because jungles are dangerous. The villain has guards because rulers have guards. The temple is trapped because tomb-builders feared thieves.
And your plucky hero has to overcome all these without feeling like they were never in danger.


Goku is, by definition, Overpowered: The Character. Sun Wukong was literally limited (his famous crown) just so the adventure part of Journey to the West could work and he didn't simply one-shot everything he encountered, and that was a limitation beyond his control.

Dragon Ball wants to keep "going back to its mystical adventure roots", and has done so twice, and both times it copied this.... pisspoorly, the same way
"Hey, DB has reached its endpoint, and now it's time for Pan to— nope, here's Kid Goku" (the meme about Dr. Doofenshmirtz and two nickels and whatnot)
And both times, Goku being a kid means he can't use the full extent of his powers because......................................................................................................................... the series says so. Therefore he now can't draw upon his full power and has less ability to control his ki.

The show's own internal logic doesn't make sense. How does being a kid make you weaker?

How does being


a



kid



make



you



weaker




Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans at least made it concrete: Destro Gas, limits your control of ki. Pretty standard stuff. I still don't like it there only because that's still an artificial limitation, but at least it's an understandable one that's nothing unusual for the genre.
But that is a major problem for an adventure story, when your main character is so stupefyingly strong and capable that no obstacle can realistically stop them.
This is what made GT so unsatisfying: the entire time, you wonder "Goku, TRUNKS, JUST. USE. SUPER SAIYAN." It's completely fake drama.
In original Dragon Ball, Goku was already as strong as he could be at that time, and he was still effortlessly clearing everyone he came across, and when he couldn't, that's when it became a proper martial arts story, which it turns out people wanted because why not just skip the parts where nothing is actually happening and delve into the series' actual genre home?


Daima is that, but it has utterly undefined characters in an utterly undefined world, where we don't really explore anywhere and are just told certain things are dangerous because the show keeps holding the characters back, and the solution to overcoming those challenges anyway is "Goku or Vegeta powers up and punches things". And that's the other thing.
What is it Adobencha Ball fans typically are asking for the most? For the side cast we've come to know and love over the years to be used more often in situations that fit them

So instead we're using Shin and two new demons. Okay, that's fine actually, it's a neat idea to flesh out a character fans have been mixed on for decades, and new characters are the norm.
"No, we're not going to do anything interesting with them. We're not even going to tease doing anything with them. They're just there because............................................................................................................................................................"

Because Toei and Toriyama needed "cute spunky allegedly capable girl" and "stoic serious boy" or else it wouldn't feel like a proper Toriyama JRPG...? I........ I don't know!


Like Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta was.... eh. The fact we see him in chibi form isn't great. That was absolutely "we need Zoomers to go "Yoooooooooo!" on TikTok and YouTube" and it worked, and I have no clue what the point of it was other than giving Vegeta Super Saiyan 3, but at least he has it, and it looks different. Not great, it's just making me think "I think Toriyama really DID watch that DBZ parody in Codename: Kids Next Door and made it his dying goal to reference it as often as possible"


(Calm down, it's a joke)

Super Saiyan 4, though
I dunno.
People will say "It's just dumb fun" and yeah, sure, it is...
But the strangest part is these are the same people who were previously saying "Dragon Ball is nothing but new transformations for the sake of hype"
Super Saiyan 4 sucks because it looks emo-ish and isn't gold and Toriyama designed it
Daima Super Saiyan 4 is great because Toriyama designed it, despite it looking exponentially worse and actually being *THE* archetypal example of "asspulling a new transformation"


And the funniest part of all that is that when Daima began, EVEN ON THIS FORUM, people were saying "Finally, a fun laid back martial arts focused Dragon Ball show where martial arts matters more than powering up into new useless transformations, I bet the gymbros will seethe but this is the direction the show needed to take"

20 episodes of utterly uninteresting adobencha later and what is it Dragon Ball Daima is most remembered for?

The bath joke, of course. Best DB series ever.


(In all seriousness, if they REALLY wanted to utilize an adventure story properly with Dragon Ball: keep Goku an adult or go with another character; if using Goku, play with the "multiverse" thing and thus design new worlds and environments that severely check Goku's known abilities, such as Instantaneous Movement being the only way to traverse some void but the void is loose and bizarre, needing to use Ultra Instinct to avoid an intense otherworldly hazard; have to use genki to take an *excess* of life energy from some world, have to use Super Saiyan to prevent some sort of living darkness from eating you, things of that nature; DB opened itself up to making a genuine adventure story work, but it keeps falling back on the same "chibi-fied Goku forced back into early DB-style adventures that necessitates lower powers and limited mobility and the audience constantly asking "why doesn't he just use his powers if we know he still has them?" Otherwise just do a new adventuring cast entirely and keep Goku away from it!)

[Yuli Ban]

So to FINALLY answer the thread OP

Would removing Neva's macguffin Super Saiyan 4 fix Daima for you?

No.

There are much, much bigger problems for Daima than just Daima Saiyan 4 Goku's arms.

[Koitsukai]

I feel Vegeta's inclusion is some sort of correction on GT, which had him absent from most of its run. Had Vegeta been part of GT, I reckon he wouldn't have been a main guy in Daima. And even then, he is not present for like 1/4 of Daima.

Piccolo is a non-factor in Daima. He could've been an e-mail.
The whole Piccolo going back to his original world thing was a wasted opportunity as it could have possibly been. They did excel in that regard, no doubt.

[Zephyr]

I'm pretty sure Vegeta's inclusion is less a reaction to GT, and more just him being revival era Dragon Ball's second main character.

How does being a kid make you weaker?

Being a kid almost makes you weaker, in a way.

In the sense that the characters train and get stronger over time, they end up stronger as adults than they were as kids. And so their past (including kid) selves were weaker. But Daima is just shrinking them, not turning them into their past selves.

There's also the way that Goku's shorter limbs are what ultimately have him lose against Jackie Chun. But Daima says they're weaker, not that their shorter limbs are a liability in combat.