Would removing Neva's macguffin Super Saiyan 4 fix Daima for you?

[angeldreamZ004]

I don't hate the Daima SSJ4 design, but I definitely prefer the GT SSJ4, I'm not a fan of the design changes either. I like the red hair though, so if at least the hands were normal sized with the classic wristbands, I'm pretty sure I would've liked it as much as the original SSJ4. But it's also because I don't really care that much about SSJ4, at least not when compared to the Super transformations, but I at least like it a lot more than SSJ3, both in concept and design. A form that only makes you stronger and drains your energy faster, gives you a very long hair, removes your eyebrows and exposes the forehead even more, nah, very meh to me, SSJ4 is more pleasing visually and has a few interesting things behind it.

If Daima SSJ4 at least had some build up to it, and was explored more, I would've put it at the same level as the Super transformations. I think they could've created a subplot, where Goku believes he can go beyond SSJ3 and trains a lot but can't achieve anything. Then he goes to the Makai, asks if someone can help him, meets Neva, Neva says he can help, but tells him “you have to do this and that first”, it would be a narrative push to convince Goku to work even harder during the adventure.
But they decided to not do that and just brought it out of nowhere. Maybe their intention was to surprise the audience by having Goku say at the end that he was trying to achieve the form? Well, maybe indeed it worked, i'm just not sure if it's the way they expected XD

The highs of the form to me were the awakening scene (Mini) and the Kamehameha with a slightly different look. I wish they gave more unique techniques and attacks to it. GT SSJ4 used the Ryuken Bakuhatsu, bruh.

As for SSJ3 Vegeta, I don't mind that he got it, and I obviously didn't care about it either. After all, we all know the unavoidable pre-determined fate that form is going to face lol.

[Zephyr]

Some stuff I should have written into my previous post, but didn't think to do until after I'd already posted it:

Inconsistencies, contradictions, and plotholes really aren't the helpful clues for continuity that we might hope they are. The Dragon Ball manga has these with itself, yet each chapter of the manga is obviously in the same continuity as the other chapters. The anime has these with itself, especially when it has episodes with material that is later contradicted by the manga which still get adapted into the same show; yet each episode of Dragon Ball Z is obviously in the same continuity as other episodes of Dragon Ball Z.

So, that's not a useful criterion for trying to determine how different works relate to one another. There are three terms I've seen that might be helpful here, each applied to different works. First, there is 別次元 (betsujigen), which can mean "another dimension". It is used by Toriyama in a Daizenshuu 6 interview to describe the Toei movies of the 80's and 90's. Second, there is 外伝 (gàídéń), which can mean "side-story". It is used by Toriyama in the Dragon Box GT “Dragon Book” to describe GT. Finally, there is 正史 (seishi), which can mean "official history", "authentic history", or "true history", and is often translated as "canon". It is used in a press statement promoting Battle of Gods, as well as in a Weekly Shonen Jump spread promoting the Broly movie.

The first two terms are applied in instances where Toriyama describes himself as a fellow audience member to the work in question, and the latter term is applied in instances where Toriyama is coming up with the story himself, and is thus not a fellow audience member. The implication here is that "canonical" works are those whose stories were (in some capacity) cooked up by Toriyama. If we run with that, then the Toei movies and GT are not "canonical", but Battle of Gods and Dragon Ball Super (in its various forms) are. That means that Daima is also "canonical". So: Super and Daima are both part of "Dragon Ball's official history", but that still doesn't mean they're in the same continuity. Super itself has multiple different continuities, and yet they are all "canonical". So even "canon" can't help us answer this question!

Another upshot is that Daima and Super being in different continuities disqualifies neither from being "canonical", and does not render GT anymore "canonical" than it ever was. The term is applied in a way that has no meaningful semantic content beyond simply noting the works whose stories have Toriyama involvement. To call them "canonical" or part of the "official history" is really to place them as a part of Toriyama's "canon" and his creative "official history" (yes I know they're literally calling it "Dragon Ball's official history", but the application of it suggests otherwise).

Vegeta's entire life revolves around training and getting stronger, so reaching Ssj3 was always a logical next step for him that should've happened a lot sooner than it did. I never understood why fans think that Vegeta admitting Goku was better than him meant he was going to stop training and getting stronger; that was never the point of that scene. If anything, that scene showed Vegeta finally understood why Goku succeeded in getting stronger while he struggled, so reaching Ssj3 as fast as he did proves that Vegeta was indeed right in his assessment of the source of Goku's strength. With that said, I'm not the biggest fan of Vegeta just having the form, as I would've liked to see something like GT's 55th episode where Vegeta reflected on his past before attempting to ascend to Ssj4. Don't get me wrong, I really liked how he used Ssj3, but I would've liked to see more story behind it.

I talked about this at length last year. I apologize, but I do not have it in me at the moment to re-state it all. I'll link to my posts though, if you want to see my more full and elaborated thoughts on the matter. The real short of it is that Goku's entire life revolves around training and getting stronger. None of his rivals can say the same, not even Vegeta. In Daima, for instance, Vegeta is willing to bow out of a good fight in order to maintain bathing-with-wife privileges. They are not the same, and so the fruits of their labors should not be the same, let alone Vegeta's fruits being potentially better.

Although, to argue against myself a bit here, I find myself increasingly subscribing to the idea that a lot of weaker characters suddenly and quickly catching up can be interpreted as a manifestation of yin and yang helping to perpetuate each other. As one person breaks boundaries and increases in strength, it becomes easier for others to sort of ride the metaphysical coattails and wake left behind in order to more rapidly increase their strength afterwards. The greater ki/qi of the cosmos ultimately seeks balance. A "raising the water level lifts all boats" kinda thing.

[JulieYBM]

I mean, is it really any different than people learning from others in general? Has health and diet knowledge being shared not led to a general increase in knowledge among people? I don’t see how this can't apply to the fictional fantasy things, like transformations, techniques and general ki manipulation. Characters study what a new character brings to the table and applies it to themselves. Did Gokuu not conceivably do this after seeing Gohan use Super Saiyan 2? Did Gotenks not do this about Super Saiyan 3? Why can't any other character do this for god ki and Ultra Instinct?

[Mr Baggins]

Maybe their intention was to surprise the audience by having Goku say at the end that he was trying to achieve the form? Well, maybe indeed it worked, i'm just not sure if it's the way they expected XD

That was partly the intention, yeah. The form, or at least adult Goku's version of it, is supposed to highlight that Goku was continuing to train offscreen in preparation for tough opponents like Buu and that he also remained one step ahead of Vegeta who had similarly recently achieved Super Saiyan 3. If nothing else, it's in keeping with the character.

It's just nothing totally new per se narratively. I like Daimaku 4 a lot, myself, but mainly for other reasons.

[SylentEcho]

Would removing Neva's macguffin Super Saiyan 4 fix Daima for you?

Yes. SSj4 and SSJ3 Vegeta were probably only made to get clicks and sell merch and mobile game gacha characters. Instead, they could've de-powered them to the point of needing classic Saiyan armour, or their ape forms again.

Also, I didn't much care for the retcons of demon folk and the copy Boo's.

[JulieYBM]

Would removing Neva's macguffin Super Saiyan 4 fix Daima for you?

Yes. SSj4 and SSJ3 Vegeta were probably only made to get clicks and sell merch and mobile game gacha characters. Instead, they could've de-powered them to the point of needing classic Saiyan armour, or their ape forms again.

Also, I didn't much care for the retcons of demon folk and the copy Boo's.

They could have done anything, sure, but the entire purpose of the series is to sell merchandise. It would not exist without new forms to sell. That's how the majority of shit gets funded.

[super michael]

I mean, is it really any different than people learning from others in general? Has health and diet knowledge being shared not led to a general increase in knowledge among people? I don’t see how this can't apply to the fictional fantasy things, like transformations, techniques and general ki manipulation. Characters study what a new character brings to the table and applies it to themselves. Did Gokuu not conceivably do this after seeing Gohan use Super Saiyan 2? Did Gotenks not do this about Super Saiyan 3? Why can't any other character do this for god ki and Ultra Instinct?

The short answer is anyone in Dragon Ball should be able to learn to use God Ki, there is nothing stopping the characters from learning it. A character doesn't need a special bloodline to use God Ki at all. If Master Roshi can use fake Ultra Instinct, then anyone should be able to use it. Now the real Ultra Instinct anyone should be able to gain it with training.

Every character that trained with Master Roshi learned how to do the Kamehameha along with Tenshinhan the rival of Master Roshi school at one point.

[The Dark Knight]

I talked about this at length last year. I apologize, but I do not have it in me at the moment to re-state it all. I'll link to my posts though, if you want to see my more full and elaborated thoughts on the matter.

This comment caught my attention:

I really like Vegeta as a character, he's one of my favorites. But there's plenty of logic in someone recognizing that they've hit their limit and retiring from the race, just like every rival before him.

I've thought for the longest time that Vegeta not reaching Ssj3 in GT was a massive mistake, but this comment has honestly changed my mind about the whole thing, and I now view GT's Vegeta in a new light. I now believe the reason he never reached Ssj3 in GT (even though his body could handle it, as Super Baby 2 was said to be similar to Ssj3 by the Perfect Files) was due to him being a semi-retired fighter. He kept up his training to remain in-shape and be prepared if anything were to happen, but his training was to get stronger within his (at the time) limits, not completely break past them. Once it was clear Goku was outmatched by Omega Shenron, he came out of retirement for one last battle, to push past his limits one last time, not as a Ssj3, but rather a Ssj4. He finally stood alongside Goku as his equal, unlike in Super and Daima where it's become a running gag for him to constantly be one step behind him.

[angeldreamZ004]

Exactly this. That's why I said that Daima, whether it's meant to be connected to Super or not, in-universe there's evidence to say that it's supposed to be, but also evidence for the opposite. It doesn't really matter. The out-universe explanation will always give a different answer.
There are creative heads and views behind these series, so it's up to them to decide if there will be connections, sequels to the stories, etc, and they can create many of them as long as they want. The same thing applies to Toei's old DB + Z + Z Movies + GT canon.
It's also important to note that Toriyama being the “higher authority” he is inside the franchise, obviously there are reasons his thoughts must be considered. He'll take the likes of GT as something separate from his manga. Same goes for other figures like Toyotaro.
GT is canon for sure, but in a different way that Super, Daima, Neko Majin or Online were conceived, but that doesn't make it any less “canonical”, all of them are sequels, but under different concepts and circumstances.

Anyway, thank you for sharing this. Personally I never saw this before, the “Official story” and BoG parts. They really made a “wordplay” between “Anime and Z - Manga Chapters 517 & 518”. I can see what they tried to do, haha.

Yep, it's not the first time. I think this goes back to Vegeta unlocking the SSJ1 in the Androids arc, though It's a form we've already seen and when it comes to new transformations I personally prefer something that has a build up and is more complex in concept, such as the Super (at least most of them) and pre-Boo Arc transformations, but I have no critics or complainments about them wanting to seek that simpler route again with another new transformation (though I have my problems with the likes of Beast Gohan for example)

What confuses me about Daima SSJ4 is how exactly its introduction is supposed to work not only from an in-universe perspective, but especially from an out-universe perspective as well.
Like, okay, Goku was training to achieve it, but does that mean he needed to be in his adult form to transform, and the mini form limited him, or he needed the power up from Neva? I only watched Daima once so I'm not sure if I'm missing something.
In the production, was this a result from a creative conflict? Like, Toriyama wanted to do X and the rest of the team wanted Y after his death? That's why what we got ended up the way it is?
I'm aware that he was involved in the transformation (designs done by him revealed on Genkidamatsuri this year) and also about him finishing the story up until the end, but I also remember hearing that SSJ4 was a request from Iyoku and that there were changes to the latter half of the story. But I couldn't verify this, so I have no idea if it's true. That's all I know, so I wonder what happened.