Whats Nappa's power level?

SSj_Rambo · Post by **SSj_Rambo** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:16 pm

Casual Matt wrote:
Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:It's said that a Saiyan's power multiplies by 10 when they transform, by Vegeta.
Yeah, it's stated in the manga, too, so there's really no reason to deny it.

Alright, thanks guys, I've always wondered that but never found an answer anywhere until now.

Joey Batz · Post by **Joey Batz** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:06 pm

Back on the subject of Nappa's power level, how did we 8,000 for him again? The Daizenshuu lists him as 4,000 and we know that no one in Frieza's empire (including Vegeta and Nappa) could suppress and raise their power at will. So where do we get 8,000?

Akira · Post by **Akira** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:43 pm

Okay, first off, you've misunderstood what "supressing" battle power actually means. It means lowering your battle power below your base power. THAT is what most of Freeza's men were incapable of. Many of them could and did "Power up" from a base power.

Freeza was capable of supressing ki by means of his transformations, and his final form could supress or raise battle power at will within his range.

Supressing is disguising even your "base power". Hiding even what you are capable of without any ki exertion is supressing. Goku was able to supress his base of 90,000 down to 5,000 when he arrived on Namek. He states that he can do a Kaioken x10 upon completion of his gravity training while on the approach to Namek. His max possible power was 900,000, and that's why he thought he might be strong enough to take on Freeza. Although he never showed this at that point, a mere Kaioken x2 put him at 180,000, which was higher than Ginyu's max. Ginyu states that he has the power to raise his battle power too. He is not at 120,000 at all times, it is probably much lower than that. We see him manifest a purple aura when powering up to reach 120,000 though.

Now, going further back, and how this pertains to Nappa, we realize that he was capable of powering up to 8,000, but his base power while fighting (read: toying) with Piccolo and the others was only 4,000. Goku says that the fight could go on all day if he doesn't do something more. Nappa tries to blast him with his mouth beam, and Goku matches it with a quick Kamehameha. The two beams cancel each other out. Goku's base, 8,000 matched evenly with Nappa's powered up max, which was also 8,000.

Vegeta had a base of 18,000 and could power up to 24,000 when preparing for his Gallick-ho beam. We know it was this level, because Goku at Kaioken x3 (8,000x3=24,000) used the Kamehameha, and the beams were dead even. That is why Goku pushed himself over the limit to Kaioken x4 (32,000) to overpower Vegeta and win that beam struggle.

You just use math and logic, and many of the early battle powers become obvious.

Post by **Herms** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:12 pm

Joey Batz wrote:Back on the subject of Nappa's power level, how did we 8,000 for him again? The Daizenshuu lists him as 4,000 and we know that no one in Freeza's empire (including Vegeta and Nappa) could suppress and raise their power at will. So where do we get 8,000?

I think it's mostly that people don't think 4,000 is high enough, so they say it's only his battle power at first and that he powered up to fight Goku

Akira wrote:Okay, first off, you've misunderstood what "supressing" battle power actually means. It means lowering your battle power below your base power. THAT is what most of Freeza's men were incapable of. Many of them could and did "Power up" from a base power.

Except that still implies that they are able to raise their battle power all at once. If many of Freeza's men could do that, why was Kui surprised when Vegeta did just that?

Akira · Post by **Akira** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:55 pm

"Many" does not imply "all" or even "most". That's a somewhat silly thing to try and call me out on bro. Just change it to "a few" then if that works out better. "Some" of them could, and that's all I was trying to point out.

Post by **Herms** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:27 pm

Akira wrote:"Many" does not imply "all" or even "most". That's a somewhat silly thing to try and call me out on bro. Just change it to "a few" then if that works out better. "Some" of them could, and that's all I was trying to point out.

Well, there are only two among Freeza's group ever shown with that ability: Ginyu and Freeza. My point is that your distinction between surpressing power below one's base or powering it up above that is invalid; the evidence suggests that all of Freeza's men except Ginyu and Freeza himself were incapable of controlling their battle power at all without transforming (and even Freeza needed to transform most of the time). Both surpressing below a base power or powering up above it would change the rating a scouter gave that person, and it's repeatedly shown that Freeza's men can't do that and are unfamiliar with the technique. They are always taken completely by surprise when somebody's batte power rating increases all of a sudden. Vegeta and Nappa couldn't do it when they invade Earth, because Vegeta tells Kui that he learned the ability to control his battle power on Earth.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:44 pm

Actually, none of them could. If you put a scouter on Nappa when he landed and then again during his fight with Goku it would have read 8,000 both times. The number never chnages, ever. That's something unique to Earth, Ginyu, and Freeza, which is why everyone's so utterly clueless when the Earthlings, and later on Vegeta, start having numbers that varry on the scouter.

That's not to say that Nappa was exerting the full force of his 8,000 power during the entire battle. In his relaxed state at the start of the fight he'd only be taping into and using a portion of his power. His subsequent 'power-up' on Earth wasn't anything that raised his detectable power, it just drew out more of that 8,000 he's got to be used in combat.

The best real-world analogy is potential energy and kenetic energy. If you've got a 10 block of steel suspended a mile above the ground it's got a good deal of potential energy. Cut the suspension and let it fall and now it's converted all of that potential energy into kenetic energy. That's basically what Nappa did, he cut the suspension and drew out all of his power.

Where as with the Z Fighters, Ginyu, and Freeza, they can regulate the amount of energy actually being produced. It's like being able to increase or decreasse the mass of that 10 ton block of steel whenever you want.

In the case of Vegeta's Gallick Gun, that's got nothing to do with supressing energy, powering-up, or anything of the sort. That's the same type of thing that Piccolo and Goku did against Raditz, conentrated attacks of greater power than the individual creating the attack is physicaly cappable of.

Stargazer · Post by **Stargazer** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:02 am

Joey Batz wrote:Back on the subject of Nappa's power level, how did we 8,000 for him again? The Daizenshuu lists him as 4,000 and we know that no one in Freeza's empire (including Vegeta and Nappa) could suppress and raise their power at will. So where do we get 8,000?

Peoples use the shock of Nappa when he learn that Goku is over 8000 to justify the Nappa at 8000.

But for some strange reason, they forget that Nappa was shocked when Vegeta tell him about a power of 5000 approching and go directly in denial by saying that the Scouter was broken.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:17 am

Stargazer wrote:Peoples use the shock of Nappa when he learn that Goku is over 8000 to justify the Nappa at 8000.

Goku: "This fight'll take forever!" I really doubt he would say that if he was over twice as strong as Nappa.

Stargazer · Post by **Stargazer** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:15 am

During the fight with Radditz, Goku cans get close to 1000 and Piccolo can get over 1300, they should have be more effective when they were figthing Radditz in close combat, but they get defeated like nothing.
Why? Because they were not fighting at full power. Why ? Because like show with Freeza at 100% and Trunks VS Perfect Cell, fighting at full power make you get exhausted quickly.

Over 8000 is Goku at full power without Kaioken. Goku do power to that level after founding about his friend's deaths, like showed by the ground trembling and Goku's hairs standing up, but he don't stay in that state for long.

Did it's look like Goku is putting all he can against Nappa ? Not for me.
Did Goku get exhausted quickly during the fight ? No for me.

So for me, Goku was not at 8000 when he was fighting Nappa.

Then by using Goku's base level at 5000 and Nappa at 4000, you get the fight from the manga, with Nappa being outclassed, but not defeated quickly.

Casual Matt · Post by **Casual Matt** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:20 am

Stargazer wrote:During the fight with Radditz, Goku cans get close to 1000 and Piccolo can get over 1300, they should have be more effective when they were figthing Radditz in close combat, but they get defeated like nothing.

That was just while they were using their special techniques. Goku can't exactly fight hand to hand while charging a Kamehame-Ha.

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:25 am

Goku was at 8,000 against Nappa. It was his basic full-power, not his Kaioken full-power. By the way, Nappa's ultimate attack scared the crap out of Goku, so he was close to or above 8,000 himself.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:39 am

Peoples use the shock of Nappa when he learn that Goku is over 8000 to justify the Nappa at 8000.

But for some strange reason, they forget that Nappa was shocked when Vegeta tell him about a power of 5000 approching and go directly in denial by saying that the Scouter was broken.

First, I suggest working on your grammar some.

Now, to get to the discussion. 5,000 exceeds what they expected for Goku. Thus Nappa's shock. Also, 5,000 + a Namek at about 3,500 could easily be a problem for him.

During the fight with Radditz, Goku cans get close to 1000 and Piccolo can get over 1300, they should have be more effective when they were figthing Radditz in close combat, but they get defeated like nothing.

Goku couldn't go above 416 and Piccolo couldn't go above 408 in their fight with Raditz. Those readings were for their attacks, not for them as individuals. They could focus energy to a point to amplify its power.

Why? Because they were not fighting at full power. Why ? Because like show with Freeza at 100% and Trunks VS Perfect Cell, fighting at full power make you get exhausted quickly.

Those are not examples of 'full power', those examples of 'beyond full power'. There's a reason their bodies bulked up and got huge. They were using power in excess of what they could handle. Power that exceeds the notion of "full power".

Goku do power to that level after founding about his friend's deaths, like showed by the ground trembling and Goku's hairs standing up, but he don't stay in that state for long.

He never leaves it during the entire battle. He fights evenly with Nappa at that point and the Kaioken usage shows he's at 8,000. If he were at 5,000 he wouldn't have needed the Kaioken to catch Nappa, since Nappa would be at 4,000 by that. Also, in the battle with Vegeta he's not shown to power-up again but his Kaioken levels match with someone at a base of 8,000.

Did it's look like Goku is putting all he can against Nappa ? Not for me.
Did Goku get exhausted quickly during the fight ? No for me.

Yeah, he was doing his all against Nappa, short of using Kaioken. He even says as much. And no, he didn't get exhausted quickly because fighting at your maximum doesn't burn you out super-duper fast. It's only when you go beyond that level (Kaioken usage, Freeza's 100% level, SSJU forms, etc) that you burn through energy fast and wear out quickly.

Post by **Herms** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:21 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:By the way, Nappa's ultimate attack scared the crap out of Goku, so he was close to or above 8,000 himself.

Except Goku blocked it easily enough. Vegeta even comments on Goku's ability to block it as such close range.

goodguy777 · Post by **goodguy777** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:55 am

Xyex wrote: He never leaves it during the entire battle. He fights evenly with Nappa at that point and the Kaioken usage shows he's at 8,000. If he were at 5,000 he wouldn't have needed the Kaioken to catch Nappa, since Nappa would be at 4,000 by that. Also, in the battle with Vegeta he's not shown to power-up again but his Kaioken levels match with someone at a base of 8,000.

Goku's ordinary fireball blocked Nappa's ultimate attack. And Goku used the Kaiohken because there was no time to catch up with Nappa(attempted to kill Gohan and Krilin), power level is not speed.

Horgus · Post by **Horgus** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:41 am

goodguy777 wrote:
Xyex wrote: He never leaves it during the entire battle. He fights evenly with Nappa at that point and the Kaioken usage shows he's at 8,000. If he were at 5,000 he wouldn't have needed the Kaioken to catch Nappa, since Nappa would be at 4,000 by that. Also, in the battle with Vegeta he's not shown to power-up again but his Kaioken levels match with someone at a base of 8,000.
Goku's ordinary fireball blocked Nappa's ultimate attack. And Goku used the Kaiohken because there was no time to catch up with Nappa(attempted to kill Gohan and Krilin), power level is not speed.

Yes, there was no time for Goku to catch up with Nappa because they were at roughly equal power.

If Goku had a great advantage over Nappa with just his base form, he would have continued to beat up on him like he did when he paid him back for the loss of his friends.

Goku and Nappa were fighting evenly after Nappa went to his full powered up state. If they weren't even then Goku could have caught up to Nappa with just his base form.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:21 am

goodguy777 wrote:
Xyex wrote: He never leaves it during the entire battle. He fights evenly with Nappa at that point and the Kaioken usage shows he's at 8,000. If he were at 5,000 he wouldn't have needed the Kaioken to catch Nappa, since Nappa would be at 4,000 by that. Also, in the battle with Vegeta he's not shown to power-up again but his Kaioken levels match with someone at a base of 8,000.
Goku's ordinary fireball blocked Nappa's ultimate attack. And Goku used the Kaiohken because there was no time to catch up with Nappa(attempted to kill Gohan and Krilin), power level is not speed.

Powerlevel = Everything in the DB world. Your powerlevel is a reading of your Ki, your Ki determines your durability, speed, and strength. Higher levels of Ki (thusly, higher powerlevels) give you greater speed. If there was no powerlevel/speed relationship then the Kaioken wouldn't have let Goku catch up to Nappa.

And before someone brings up the speed loss of the SSJU form, that's somewhat different. The SSJU form piles on extra mass. Extra mass that the individual isn't used to. This mass adds weight, which reduces speed. It adds surface area for the air to push back on, which reduces speed. And it reduces mobility, which reduces reflexes and speed. So while the increased levels of ki do up the speed the other factors negate, and even fully override, those speed increases.

As for Goku negating Nappa's attack. So? Goku's power of slightly over 8,000 was able to negate an attack from Nappa who was around 8,000 (maybe even a little lower than 8k). That's just logical. What isn't logical is to assume that Goku at 5,000 would 'take all day' against Nappa at 4,000. Nappa was just batting around Piccolo (3,500) without breaking a sweat (difference of 1.14x). But now he's weaker than someone else, by a difference of 1.25x (greater than his advantage over Piccolo) and he's fairing better?

Also, no one in DB uses 'fireballs'.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:23 am

Xyex wrote:Also, no one in DB uses 'fireballs'.

Vegeta throws two.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:14 am

Looking lik fire =/= fire.

Last I saw neither of those acted like fire. Neither caught anything on fire or burn flesh or melted rock or anything of the sort. Even Pikkon's Thunder Flash failed to ignite the Otheworld Stadium or its occupants despite all its resemblance to flame.

Post by **Herms** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:39 am

Horgus wrote:Goku and Nappa were fighting evenly after Nappa went to his full powered up state.

This is nit-picky, but Nappa doesn't have a "powered up state", since he doesn't have the ability to power up that the Earth fighters have. At any rate, he never does anything power up-like against Goku, although he sort of does this "bracing himself" thing once, but this is still while he's getting beat up. When he does go all out, all he does is say something to the effect of "Now I'll show you my true ability", and then he starts fighting evenly with Goku (or at least much closer to even).

Xyex wrote:Also, no one in DB uses 'fireballs'.

Dabra uses a fire-ball attack on Gohan, right after using his fire-breath.