What are people's opinion on GT?

ssjcj · Post by **ssjcj** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:19 pm

Thanks guys for the opinions. I think I will buy it, but I'm not pinning too much hope on it actually being good. I'll just wait and see...

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:08 pm

Saiyan-Professor wrote:Just because someone can sense a large Ki that does not mean that, they cannot fine-tune their abilities to where they can feel a Scouter rating of 1. Is there anything in the manga, anime, Daizenshus or movies that prove this is the case? Now you can argue that they were lazy and did not train but they had to have been able to do some after all Trunks performance throughout GT outdid anything that Son Gohan did in GT.

I'm not saying they can't sense a small ki. I'm just saying that the scene wasn't scripted that way. Goten is almost eaten by Yakon. Base-form Trunks one-hit kills the guy it took SSJ2 Goku to take out before (yes, here one could argue the element of surprise). Goten stands, they both turn, and fire down the alley. Out roles #19's head. They wanted a head to roll, an organic would be too gruesome, so they picked #19 without looking back at the rules.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWb0GYbB ... re=related

They may not have had experience with the other Artificial Humans but they could have been told all that they needed to know throughout the years by their parents. I believe that Toei treated the Artificial Humans in the manner that they did was because of Toriyama depicting #17 and 18# contributing to the Genki-Dama at the end of the Buu Saga. They were just going off what Toriyama laid out so I cannot blame Toei for their actions.

The problem is, that *isn't* what Toriyama laid out. #17 and #18 are human. #18 proves this by giving birth to a normal human child, and Kuririn explains to Goku that she's an enhanced human, not a robot. #19 is a robot. He can not be sensed. In their first appearance, the Z Senshi scoured the city and couldn't find them. Yamcha, having been warned and specifically being on the look out, didn't know who they were when they walked right up to him.

So why should we swallow that Trunks and Goten somehow heard #19 fart in a dark alley, and new exactly who and what he was?

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:24 pm

Onikage725 wrote:I'm not saying they can't sense a small ki. I'm just saying that the scene wasn't scripted that way. Goten is almost eaten by Yakon. Base-form Trunks one-hit kills the guy it took SSJ2 Goku to take out before (yes, here one could argue the element of surprise). Goten stands, they both turn, and fire down the alley. Out roles #19's head. They wanted a head to roll, an organic would be too gruesome, so they picked #19 without looking back at the rules.

That really does not prove anything, yes you can go the route of Son Goten and Trunks surprised him but we do not know how much training they endured even though they appeared to be sluggards in comparison to Vegeta and Kakarrot.

The problem is, that *isn't* what Toriyama laid out. #17 and #18 are human. #18 proves this by giving birth to a normal human child, and Kuririn explains to Goku that she's an enhanced human, not a robot. #19 is a robot. He can not be sensed. In their first appearance, the Z Senshi scoured the city and couldn't find them. Yamcha, having been warned and specifically being on the look out, didn't know who they were when they walked right up to him.

So why should we swallow that Trunks and Goten somehow heard #19 fart in a dark alley, and new exactly who and what he was?

How can #17 and #18 go from not being detectable because a lack of Ki to all of a sudden they are making an offering to the Genki Dama, unless something changed along the way after their deaths when Kid Buu destroyed the earth? That is just the way I see it.

SaiyaMel · Post by **SaiyaMel** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:50 pm

Super Ghost Kamikaze wrote:
ultimatedbzfan wrote:I know people will agree with me on this. Goku's attitude sucked in GT. In DBZ, Goku was a very cunning and taticial fighter. But in Gt, he never thought anything through. Always rushing into battle, and getting his ass handed to him.
I disagree. Goku was made more like his early self, and I found this to be very endearing.

I don't. It was something already done and best left in original DB IMO.

Forgotten Hero · Post by **Forgotten Hero** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:25 am

...I hate GT.
Snore fest for me at least....

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:05 am

Saiyan-Professor wrote:That really does not prove anything, yes you can go the route of Son Goten and Trunks surprised him but we do not know how much training they endured even though they appeared to be sluggards in comparison to Vegeta and Kakarrot.

For Yakon? You *have* to go the route of "they surprised him." There is NO way that two characters who don't take their training all that serious (leading relatively normal lives) are comparable in their base forms to a SSJ2. Neither of them can even go SSJ2.

How can #17 and #18 go from not being detectable because a lack of Ki to all of a sudden they are making an offering to the Genki Dama, unless something changed along the way after their deaths when Kid Buu destroyed the earth? That is just the way I see it.

I answered this already. #17 and #18 are human. Their full power, greater than an average SSJ, is completely unreadable. Usage of their power doesn't register. You can't scan for them. But they should still come off as normal humans, and could offer to the Genki Dama what any of the other humans on Earth could offer.

#19 is not human. He was built, piece by piece, by Dr. Gero. He has no life essence, he has no soul, he generates no ki. He shouldn't have even been in Hell, an inconsistency right there. Technically none of the guys who escaped should be, since Toriyama's rules state that souls are cleansed and reincarnated, and that keeping a physical form is a reward. Either way, #19 was never "alive," and destroying him should not have yielded a soul to pass on.

And moving past that, my point about Goten and Trunks is that it is absurd that they would sense an undetectable foe and fire blindly into an alleyway, especially considering #19 hadn't done anything aggressive. Having never met #19, I would assume they would need to see him, recall some old description from their parents, and then make a judgment call.

But the writers played the scene like they sensed him and knew who he was.

Which is incorrect.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:08 am

Why is GT even trying to be explained or made sense of? If we tried to pick apart every plot or logic inconsistency, we'll be here our whole lives.

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:25 am

SSj Kaboom wrote:Why is GT even trying to be explained or made sense of? If we tried to pick apart every plot or logic inconsistency, we'll be here our whole lives.

I dunno we took out a big chunk of them in about 5 or 6 posts.
Or at least examined them and found some semi-decent reasons.

Post by **Herms** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:32 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:Like why is 19 rising from Hell when he’s COMPLETELY ROBOTIC and would thus not have a soul of any sort to begin with? To name but one of several…

The rules for what does and doesn't have a soul in the DB universe are never explained, so it's possible No.19 could have one. He certainly seemed alive enough.

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:33 am

Herms wrote:
Onikage725 wrote:Either way, #19 was never "alive," and destroying him should not have yielded a soul to pass on.
The rules for what does and doesn't have a soul in the DB universe are never explained, so it's possible No.19 could have one. He certainly seemed alive enough.

Maybe gathering some human energy gave him a soul seeing how KI appears to be life's esence in the Dragonball universe.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:00 pm

Ok, wow. I stand corrected. #19 would be completely detectable while hiding out of sight, in the dark, and taking no action whatsoever.

Comments in the manga about him being undetectable by ki sensing, and further drawing a destinction between his model and the "still human" models for #17 and #18 not withstanding.

Score one for GT. Well played.

Post by **Herms** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:36 pm

Onikage725 wrote:Ok, wow. I stand corrected. #19 would be completely detectable while hiding out of sight, in the dark, and taking no action whatsoever.

Comments in the manga about him being undetectable by ki sensing, and further drawing a destinction between his model and the "still human" models for #17 and #18 not withstanding.

Score one for GT. Well played.

Was this directed at me? I'll go back and swap your quote for a similiar one from Kunzait then, since I'm really not interested in the "could Goten and Trunks be able to sense No.19?" arguement. It's just that the "how could No.19 come back to life?" thing gets brought up a lot and I think it's merely a case of people unconsciously bringing in rules from other series about how robots and souls work.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:43 pm

Herms wrote:Was this directed at me? I'll go back and swap your quote for a similiar one from Kunzait then, since I'm really not interested in the "could Goten and Trunks be able to sense No.19?" arguement. It's just that the "how could No.19 come back to life?" thing gets brought up a lot and I think it's merely a case of people unconsciously bringing in rules from other series about how robots and souls work.

Was #8 fully mechanical? He gets brought back to life by Porunga after Kid Buu blows up the Earth.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:51 pm

Onikage725 wrote:Score one for GT. Well played.

It is not about whether someone is for GT or not it is about some fans criticize the show (because of their dislike that Toriyama had very little to do with it etc.) unnecessarily at times. When some of those complaints are not called for when some of their problems with it can be explained away using the data from the series regardless of whether you use the manga or the anime.

Rocketman wrote:Was #8 fully mechanical? He gets brought back to life by Porunga after Kid Buu blows up the Earth.

I pulled this from the net.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 2:26 pm

Herms wrote:Was this directed at me? I'll go back and swap your quote for a similiar one from Kunzait then, since I'm really not interested in the "could Goten and Trunks be able to sense No.19?" arguement. It's just that the "how could No.19 come back to life?" thing gets brought up a lot and I think it's merely a case of people unconsciously bringing in rules from other series about how robots and souls work.

Not so much. It was in general. And it was sarcasm.

As far as #19 specifically being alive, I do concede it as a gray area. Just like Pilaf being alive. I personally think it's bullshit, but it's not worth going to war over.

@Rocketman- I don't recall, to be honest. He does have a distinctly "Frankenstein's Monster" look to him, so it's possible that he's basically a reanimated corpse with cybernetic parts.

Saiyan-Professor wrote:It is not about whether someone is for GT or not it is about some fans criticize the show (because of their dislike that Toriyama had very little to do with it etc.) unnecessarily at times. When some of those complaints are not called for when some of their problems with it can be explained away using the data from the series regardless of whether you use the manga or the anime.

This may well just be a case of needing to agree to disagree. My statements aren't based on an inherent dislike of things non-Toriyama. I don't feel that 3 second scene we're talking about did anything answer for what appears to be a flagrant contradiction of "the rules." Trunks and Goten sense a villain out of sight, turn and fire. The head of one of the small handful of villains they shouldn't be able to sense rolls out. This "do robots have souls" existentialism is interesting debate, but do you honestly think Toei was going for that level of depth with that brief scene? They wanted a head to roll, and I suspect they thought an organic would be too gruesome (a lot of Japanese children's programming saw tighter content controls around that time and still today). So they needed an artificial human. The #16 died as a hero, Gero was occupied, as was the fully robotic #17 clone. That left #19. The specifics of the rules set up years ago just simply wasn't on their minds.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:09 pm

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:00 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Rocketman wrote:
Herms wrote:Was this directed at me? I'll go back and swap your quote for a similiar one from Kunzait then, since I'm really not interested in the "could Goten and Trunks be able to sense No.19?" arguement. It's just that the "how could No.19 come back to life?" thing gets brought up a lot and I think it's merely a case of people unconsciously bringing in rules from other series about how robots and souls work.
Was #8 fully mechanical? He gets brought back to life by Porunga after Kid Buu blows up the Earth.
Not sure if this was in the manga, but in the anime White says that #8 was a reanimated corpse of a dead associate of his, augmented with cybernetic enhancements.

Nothing like that was mentioned in the manga. Just that he was created by the Red Ribbon army. Though the reanimated corpse does make sense with him looking like Frankenstein.

As fot GT thoughts, didn't care for it. Don't own any of it, and only watched some eps on tv. Though will admit I thought the evil dragons' acronym dub names was a clever touch.

Monkey D. Goku · Post by **Monkey D. Goku** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:35 pm

I haven't seen all of GT, but from what I have seen I like it enough to want to watch the full series.

About #19 being "revived" is it possible Dr. Gero made another one in Hell? Seems unlikely, but he did make another #17.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:08 pm

Onikage725 wrote:This may well just be a case of needing to agree to disagree. My statements aren't based on an inherent dislike of things non-Toriyama. I don't feel that 3 second scene we're talking about did anything answer for what appears to be a flagrant contradiction of "the rules." Trunks and Goten sense a villain out of sight, turn and fire. The head of one of the small handful of villains they shouldn't be able to sense rolls out. This "do robots have souls" existentialism is interesting debate, but do you honestly think Toei was going for that level of depth with that brief scene? They wanted a head to roll, and I suspect they thought an organic would be too gruesome (a lot of Japanese children's programming saw tighter content controls around that time and still today). So they needed an artificial human. The #16 died as a hero, Gero was occupied, as was the fully robotic #17 clone. That left #19. The specifics of the rules set up years ago just simply wasn't on their minds.

You could be correct but the fact remains that we cannot say what the writers intended. Either opinion is an option but the series regardless of whether it is the anime or manga leave so much open we cannot say what is a screw up by Toei or if they were going off of what was presented to them in Toriyama’s work. As for me I am giving them the benefit of the doubt and I hope that others will at least give Dragonball GT a chance for they might enjoy it as I do.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:36 pm

Metallic came back too, and he was pure mechanical. I think it's safe to say that TOEI just fucked up.