How strong are Goten and Trunks ?

[Kid Trunks]

Except that that's filler.

I was referring to Super Vegetto. If his SSJ form is so far beyond SGhB to be untouchable, his base form must be monstrous as well.

And also, thats Potara.

And characters that don't suck. But still, Fusion does have that kind of power.

Vegetto went straight to SSJ, so its reasonable to assume that his base wasn't strong enough. If his base was strong enough, I don't see why he'd increase his power by 50 times, seeing as how you don't need to be even twice as strong to dominate someone.

And Potara was said to be stronger than Metamorese. So by that rationale, Metamorese fusion is much weaker, so Goten and Trunks would have to be much stronger than your suggesting if their base fusion power (pre-ROSAT) was to equal Majin Vegeta.

[Rocketman]

Vegetto went straight to SSJ, so its reasonable to assume that his base wasn't strong enough. If his base was strong enough, I don't see why he'd increase his power by 50 times, seeing as how you don't need to be even twice as strong to dominate someone.

And Potara was said to be stronger than Metamorese. So by that rationale, Metamorese fusion is much weaker, so Goten and Trunks would have to be much stronger than your suggesting if their base fusion power (pre-ROSAT) was to equal Majin Vegeta.

[/quote]

1. Vegetto didn't know his own strength. He tells Buu later "I'm surprised you were this helpless".

2. Nowhere is it said that SSJ always makes you fifty times stronger.

3. The massive jump to Vegetto is stated to not be from the Fusion alone, but from the power of Goku and Vegeta.

And Gotenks was weaker than Majin Vegeta.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Which Gotenks? Base Gotenks? I think he was at least around Majin Vegeta, since Piccolo acknowledged his power. The same Piccolo was baffled by Vegeta's power, stating he was more powerful then SSJ2 Kid Gohan. I doubt he would be impressed with them if they're much weaker then that.

Also; do you think post-rosat base Gotenks is weaker then Majin Vegeta as well?

[Rocketman]

Which Gotenks? Base Gotenks? I think he was at least around Majin Vegeta, since Piccolo acknowledged his power. The same Piccolo was baffled by Vegeta's power, stating he was more powerful then SSJ2 Kid Gohan. I doubt he would be impressed with them if they're much weaker then that.

Yeah, Base Gotenks. And I stand by my assertion that most of the "WOAHMG" directed at the kids is that they're seven/eight and have this kind of power. or, in this case, did with a stupid-looking dance what Gohan and Vegeta got by torturing themselves.

Also; do you think post-rosat base Gotenks is weaker then Majin Vegeta as well?

I don't think there's enough evidence any way.

[Saiyan-Professor]

Vegetto went straight to SSJ, so its reasonable to assume that his base wasn't strong enough. If his base was strong enough, I don't see why he'd increase his power by 50 times, seeing as how you don't need to be even twice as strong to dominate someone.

And Potara was said to be stronger than Metamorese. So by that rationale, Metamorese fusion is much weaker, so Goten and Trunks would have to be much stronger than your suggesting if their base fusion power (pre-ROSAT) was to equal Majin Vegeta.

1. Vegetto didn't know his own strength. He tells Buu later "I'm surprised you were this helpless".

2. Nowhere is it said that SSJ always makes you fifty times stronger.

3. The massive jump to Vegetto is stated to not be from the Fusion alone, but from the power of Goku and Vegeta.

And Gotenks was weaker than Majin Vegeta.

How does that quote prove that Vegetto knew “his own strength”? Moreover, according to the Daizenshuu the Super Saiyan transformtion multiplies the character’s base power by 50.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Yeah, Base Gotenks. And I stand by my assertion that most of the "WOAHMG" directed at the kids is that they're seven/eight and have this kind of power. or, in this case, did with a stupid-looking dance what Gohan and Vegeta got by torturing themselves.

Well, Piccolo outright says they're powerful, but they don't standa chance against Majin Buu. So, if anything, they can be considered on-par with Vegeta, since he couldn't do anything, either. I also doubt the age played a factor. Piccolo saw Gohan at 8 yrs old surpass Goku greatly, and the kids are basically the same age, with Goten being younger.

I don't think there's enough evidence any way.

I think there is. Piccolo said: "He does seem different! They've powered-up hugely! This may succeed!"

On the lookout, Piccolo stated Super Buu was more powerful then the previous Buu, who we know Vegeta couldn't even damage, so they would have to be above Vegeta comfortably at this point. If they're still much weaker then a SSJ2, it makes Piccolo look stupid, not that he didn't try so much to do that already.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

Well, Piccolo outright says they're powerful, but they don't standa chance against Majin Buu. So, if anything, they can be considered on-par with Vegeta, since he couldn't do anything, either.

As much as I think Gotenks is stronger than Majin Vegeta...that logic is bad. That's like saying "Since King Mr. Dog couldn't do much against Buu, he's just as strong as Majin Vegeta!"

I also doubt the age played a factor. Piccolo saw Gohan at 8 yrs old surpass Goku greatly, and the kids are basically the same age, with Goten being younger.

This I agree with to some extent. I think that the "They're so young!" or "Stupid dance" excuses are grasping at straws.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I doubt you really understood my point, though. From everything Goku said, this new fusion was supposed to be the next best thing. He even says it's going to be stronger then him, which would likely be a reference to the full-power (SSJ Gotenks) of fusion.

We never see SSJ Gotenks against Majin Buu, since the fusion ended, but for the fusion to at least be around that level of SSJ3 in SSJ form, there base can't just be written off as weak because he didn't do anything worthwhile.

I wasn't tryin to imply that guy B is as strong as Guy A because they did the same, even though that's how it looks.

[kaioken12]

I think he referenced SSJ Gotenks as well.
He was surprised to see that Gotenks figured how to go SSJ3.
So he never calculated with that from the start - his bet was that SSJ1 Gotenks would be able to beat Majin Buu (the fat one).

Later he stated that his SSJ3 could have destroyed fat Buu but he wanted the kids to do it.

So that puts Gotenks SSJ1 somewhere above SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta at least, as an enemy that "needed" a SSJ3 Goku to be beaten could have been beaten by Gotenks SSJ1...

So we can assume imho that a SSJ3 Gotenks is far beyond Goku SSJ3 or Vegeta SSJ2 (Majin or not).

The only one that seems to be as strong as Gotenks SSJ3 or even stronger is Gohan in the end concerning the protagonists.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

The only one that seems to be as strong as Gotenks SSJ3 or even stronger is Gohan in the end concerning the protagonists.

And Vegetto, and Kid Buu, and MAYBE Super Buu dpending on absorptions.

[Dayspring]

Vegetto went straight to SSJ, so its reasonable to assume that his base wasn't strong enough. If his base was strong enough, I don't see why he'd increase his power by 50 times, seeing as how you don't need to be even twice as strong to dominate someone.

And Potara was said to be stronger than Metamorese. So by that rationale, Metamorese fusion is much weaker, so Goten and Trunks would have to be much stronger than your suggesting if their base fusion power (pre-ROSAT) was to equal Majin Vegeta.

1. Vegetto didn't know his own strength. He tells Buu later "I'm surprised you were this helpless".

2. Nowhere is it said that SSJ always makes you fifty times stronger.

3. The massive jump to Vegetto is stated to not be from the Fusion alone, but from the power of Goku and Vegeta.

And Gotenks was weaker than Majin Vegeta.

How does that quote prove that Vegetto knew “his own strength”? Moreover, according to the Daizenshuu the Super Saiyan transformtion multiplies the character’s base power by 50.

Only in the era of Kaiokens being remotely useful (ie: against Freeza). Once Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, and Trunks exit the Room of Spirit and Time in the Cell arcs, we see SSJ is no longer just a straight multiplier. In fact, one could even argue that it's no longer the case after the three years of training leading up to the androids.

[kaioken12]

And Vegetto, and Kid Buu, and MAYBE Super Buu dpending on absorptions.

Yeah, Vegetto of course - I just thought about the "single characters" ^^
Super Buu + Gotenks and Piccolo or + Goten/Trunks/Piccolo/Gohan should be stronger as well [but I only counted the protagonists back there].

Super Buu is a "mystery" as Gotenks never got to finish him off and we can't say for sure if he really would have been killed then - but we can imagine that he would.

Concerning Kid Buu, I think, Gotenks SSJ3 should be stronger than him by far as well as Gohan [since Kid Buu fought an nearly equal match with Goku SSJ3 and he stated his full powered form could beat him - which he never thought of Super Buu] - but that's the same old discussion everywhere concerning how you interpretate the whole thing ^^°

[Saiyan-Professor]

1. Vegetto didn't know his own strength. He tells Buu later "I'm surprised you were this helpless".

2. Nowhere is it said that SSJ always makes you fifty times stronger.

3. The massive jump to Vegetto is stated to not be from the Fusion alone, but from the power of Goku and Vegeta.

And Gotenks was weaker than Majin Vegeta.

How does that quote prove that Vegetto knew “his own strength”? Moreover, according to the Daizenshuu the Super Saiyan transformtion multiplies the character’s base power by 50.

Only in the era of Kaiokens being remotely useful (ie: against Freeza). Once Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, and Trunks exit the Room of Spirit and Time in the Cell arcs, we see SSJ is no longer just a straight multiplier. In fact, one could even argue that it's no longer the case after the three years of training leading up to the androids.

How did you come to that conclusion? Does the Daizenshuu say that it was no longer a straight multiplier?

[Horgus]

How does that quote prove that Vegetto knew “his own strength”? Moreover, according to the Daizenshuu the Super Saiyan transformtion multiplies the character’s base power by 50.

Well it's always possible that he had 50 times his base available, but probably wasn't using it.

Just because his power gets increased 50 fold doesn't mean he has to fight using all that strength.

[kaioken12]

Just because his power gets increased 50 fold doesn't mean he has to fight using all that strength.

Yeah, he was pretty much toying with Buu, so I guess he didn't use his full power... if he had to use it to the maximum of a SSJ1, then I think he would just have gone SSJ2 - just for not risking anything like Buu blowing up the earth <=> or to have control of the fight.

But that's just a guess of course.

[SSJ2bardock]

You guys, are we seriously questioning the supreme superiority of Vegetto? Seriously, he is far and away THE most powerful character in the Dragonball universe and I don't think it really mattered how much his power got multiplied by SSJ because he was already so much more powerful than everyone else.

Then again that raises the question, if he didn't need to go SSJ then why did he?

[kaioken12]

You guys, are we seriously questioning the supreme superiority of Vegetto? Seriously, he is far and away THE most powerful character in the Dragonball universe and I don't think it really mattered how much his power got multiplied by SSJ because he was already so much more powerful than everyone else.

Then again that raises the question, if he didn't need to go SSJ then why did he?

Perhaps because his control of SSJ didn't have a great drain of his energy and he was comfortable there - plus he could mock Buu in any way he wanted - so why having a "harder" fight in base form? ^^

And yeah, Vegetto is the most powerful character in the manga.
Not only a strong fusion, but I remember that he himself didn't expect to be that strong - this might be because of Goku and Vegeta's rivalry and characters as well as the fact that one of them was dead and the other alive (concerning energy usage - remember dead Goku had more control of SSJ3 where a living had problems).

In any case Vegetto is the strongest and I just think that he needed to go SSJ for a fight or that this was just the most comfortable form (see above).

I'm sure he could have even gone SSJ3 (there is no reason why not, as he had Goku's knowledge and the power as well) - but there just was no reason to do so ^^

[Kaboom]

How did you come to that conclusion? Does the Daizenshuu say that it was no longer a straight multiplier?

The Daizenshuu never gave multipliers, only numbers. Whoever made them up gave SSj that random 150 mil just so it'd be a good deal stronger than what Goku was getting from the Kaio-Ken. Many many times did Vegeta warn everyone that Saiyans "can't be reduced to numbers."

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Daizenshuu 7 does actually mention that the Super Saiyan transformation multiplied Goku's power by 50, though.

[kaioken12]

Daizenshuu 7 does actually mention that the Super Saiyan transformation multiplied Goku's power by 50, though.

Yeah I think so, too.
But then the question should be, if it is always 50 or not.
Or said in another way: Is it the base form which is important for SSJ powers or can the multiplier change over time?

(I always wondered about that Oo)