How strong are Goten and Trunks ?

Yamcha_krillin · Post by **Yamcha_krillin** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 4:04 pm

How powerfull are these two small saiyans,could they beat Frieza 100% in their SSJ form ?

Zuhalter2000 · Post by **Zuhalter2000** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:23 pm

Are you talking together or separate and at what point in the series?

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:57 pm

Yamcha_krillin wrote:How powerfull are these two small saiyans,could they beat Freeza 100% in their SSJ form ?

Well according to the new special, they could each take on someone at Freeza’s level (Abo and Kado).

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:18 pm

I know the strength of two Super Saiyajin may vary, but to at least be in the SSJ form they must be somewhere around the strength of Goku when he first went SSJ, right?

Besides that, as Gotenks they're incredibly powerful. Even though a successful fusion is greater than the sum of its parts, they have to be pretty strong individually to create something like that.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:23 pm

I'd place the two at being well around Son's power at late Namek or even above if Goten was able to give Gohan a bit of a challenge. Assuming Gohan's base as somewhere about ten or so million that'd put him at a SSj power of 500,000,000 but alas that's fan estimations.

goodguy777 · Post by **goodguy777** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:13 am

Both Goten and chibi-Trunks were stronger than [Android-Arc] Goku, Vegeta and F.Trunks. SSJ chibi-Trunks released a not so strong blast and Android 18 said that blast was very strong. While [Android-Arc]SSJ Goku, Vegeta and F.Trunks were nothing to Android 18.

Yamcha_krillin · Post by **Yamcha_krillin** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:01 am

Zuhalter2000 wrote:Are you talking together or separate and at what point in the series?

Seperate and after Kid Buu was defeated.

Saiyan-Professor wrote:
Well according to the new special, they could each take on someone at Freeza’s level (Abo and Kado).

I dont think that the special counts,it's considered to be non-canon.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:03 am

Yamcha_krillin wrote:I dont think that the special counts,it's considered to be non-canon.

Is it? I didn't realize we knew that yet.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:03 am

goodguy777 wrote:Both Goten and chibi-Trunks were stronger than [Android-Arc] Goku, Vegeta and F.Trunks. SSJ chibi-Trunks released a not so strong blast and Android 18 said that blast was very strong. While [Android-Arc]SSJ Goku, Vegeta and F.Trunks were nothing to Android 18.

I read that scene as #18 being surprised that "Mighty Mask" unleashed a big ol' ki blast.

Remember, #18 can't sense ki.

omegacwa · Post by **omegacwa** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:26 pm

I would say they are both Weaker than Goku on Namek. Neither of them had had substantial training, and I believe that there ability to transform to SSJ came merely from having SSJ fathers at the time of there conception. If I had to guess, I would say that there power was somewhere in the low millions. Also the No 18 thing, maybe she was just surprised cause she thought she was fighting some normal human. I can't really remember that scene though. [/i]

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:18 pm

Both Goten and chibi-Trunks were stronger than [Android-Arc] Goku, Vegeta and F.Trunks. SSJ chibi-Trunks released a not so strong blast and Android 18 said that blast was very strong. While [Android-Arc]SSJ Goku, Vegeta and F.Trunks were nothing to Android 18.

No. They weren't. 18 was just surprised they were able to create an attack of that level, nothing more. She wasn't concerned about being injured at all, it was pure shock. And likely some concern for the spectators as her daugher was in the crowd, don't forget.

I dont think that the special counts,it's considered to be non-canon.

It's not considered anything yet. And from what I've heard there's nothing in the special that automatically eliminates it from being canon. Until something comes along that discounts the special, it is part of the canon.

Anyway, yeah, they're somewhere in the 100% Freeza to early Android SSJ range.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:31 pm

Xyex wrote:It's not considered anything yet. And from what I've heard there's nothing in the special that automatically eliminates it from being canon.

"There are no Saiyans besides me, Kakarot, and Kakarot's brat."

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:41 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Xyex wrote:It's not considered anything yet. And from what I've heard there's nothing in the special that automatically eliminates it from being canon.
"There are no Saiyans besides me, Kakarot, and Kakarot's brat."

I knew someone would mention that. But it's not a deal breaker in the slightest. Before Raditz remembered about his brother the only Saiya-jins left were Raditz, Nappa, and Vegeta. Thus if the special is non-canon because of Table the series is non-canon because of Goku.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:10 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Xyex wrote:It's not considered anything yet. And from what I've heard there's nothing in the special that automatically eliminates it from being canon.
"There are no Saiyans besides me, Kakarot, and Kakarot's brat."

That is a problem for me as well, Vegeta made a definitive statement in the manga and anime on more than one occasion if memory serves which was never contradicted until now. I do not know of any reason why he would purposefully leave his little brother out of the equation unless he was extremely ashamed of Tarble’s status. Then again, now that I think about it since he had not heard from him since Tarble was sent away maybe he figured that Tarble was dead so there was no point in mentioning him. Redgic in GT had full knowledge that Kakarrot was a Saiyan so maybe he ran into Tarble in the past or it could be that Redgic is older than what he appears to be and he was around when the original crew was alive.

Yamcha_krillin · Post by **Yamcha_krillin** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:22 pm

Xyex wrote: No. They weren't. 18 was just surprised they were able to create an attack of that level, nothing more. She wasn't concerned about being injured at all, it was pure shock. And likely some concern for the spectators as her daugher was in the crowd, don't forget.

I agree with this

She probably just ended the fight because her daughter or the spectators might get hurt since Goten is not good in manipulating his Ki attacks and she doesnt know who is who behind that costume.

#18 also cant sense Ki so i dont know how would she even be abel to know if someone can be considered a danger.

One thing i would also like to add is that Trunks himself said that his Ki attacks wont be abel to kill #18.

Android 18 was also abel to dodge the blast even though she was caught off guard,since she did not excpet it to come at her as fast as it did.

One question XYEX what is your View on the sparring match Gohan had with Goten?

Xyex wrote:It's not considered anything yet. And from what I've heard there's nothing in the special that automatically eliminates it from being canon. Until something comes along that discounts the special, it is part of the canon.

Anyway, yeah, they're somewhere in the 100% Freeza to early Android SSJ range.

I think that in the special it's Base Goku>>>SSJ Gotenks

I would consider both of them to be as strong as Son Goku Android Arc.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:53 pm

Xyex wrote:
Rocketman wrote:
Xyex wrote:It's not considered anything yet. And from what I've heard there's nothing in the special that automatically eliminates it from being canon.
"There are no Saiyans besides me, Kakarot, and Kakarot's brat."
I knew someone would mention that. But it's not a deal breaker in the slightest. Before Raditz remembered about his brother the only Saiya-jins left were Raditz, Nappa, and Vegeta. Thus if the special is non-canon because of Table the series is non-canon because of Goku.

I disagree here. Goku was useless to them since all their known info on him pointed that he'd be weaker than Radditz. I can't picture any of them going sooooo far out of their way for someone with a PL under 1,200 unless Goku was female (in order to carry on the race). Especially since, if in the rare instance that they needed help, they had access to Saibamen. It was always my theory that Radditz left the planet to find Goku out of fear of getting killed by the inhabitants. If it's too dangerous for him to be around, then getting Goku would save him two years of fighting for his life (1 year to Earth, 1 year back). He probably justified it to Nappa and Vegeta by saying Goku's Oozaru PL would be in the 1,200-10,000 range.

Meanwhile it doesn't make any sense for Vegeta to claim Trunks can't be another Saiyan's son when he knows of the possible existence of Tarble. Especially since he's seen from Gohan that it's possible for Saiyan hybrids to become vastly superior to pureblood Saiyans. Shame has nothing do with it; Goku was a lowest ranking Saiyan and had Gohan. If anything, all this would lead Vegeta to at least believe Tarble had a kid (Trunks) and died, while Trunks survived because of his obviously impressive strength.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:01 pm

Dayspring wrote:I disagree here. Goku was useless to them since all their known info on him pointed that he'd be weaker than Radditz. I can't picture any of them going sooooo far out of their way for someone with a PL under 1,200 unless Goku was female (in order to carry on the race). Especially since, if in the rare instance that they needed help, they had access to Saibamen. It was always my theory that Radditz left the planet to find Goku out of fear of getting killed by the inhabitants. If it's too dangerous for him to be around, then getting Goku would save him two years of fighting for his life (1 year to Earth, 1 year back). He probably justified it to Nappa and Vegeta by saying Goku's Oozaru PL would be in the 1,200-10,000 range.

I think that's what was going on, too. Plus, Goku would get stronger from near-death, while Saibamen wouldn't.

Or even, Vegeta might've approved of having another Saiyan around to lord over or be on his side if/when the time comes to rebel against Freeza. Then Vegeta abandons any idea of 'Saiyan solidarity' once he finds out he could become immortal and take Freeza on one-on-one (and note that even then, he says to Nappa "we can become immortal").

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:07 pm

Likely around the power of SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Trunks (Cell Games) at the most.

Android #18 knew they were SSJ, so all of that surprised because they were kids doesn't mean much. The blast, mind you, wasn't even at full-power, and was a quick blast at best. The kids are stronger then #18 by a good amount.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:18 pm

Dayspring wrote:
Xyex wrote:
Rocketman wrote: "There are no Saiyans besides me, Kakarot, and Kakarot's brat."
I knew someone would mention that. But it's not a deal breaker in the slightest. Before Raditz remembered about his brother the only Saiya-jins left were Raditz, Nappa, and Vegeta. Thus if the special is non-canon because of Table the series is non-canon because of Goku.
I disagree here. Goku was useless to them since all their known info on him pointed that he'd be weaker than Radditz. I can't picture any of them going sooooo far out of their way for someone with a PL under 1,200 unless Goku was female (in order to carry on the race). Especially since, if in the rare instance that they needed help, they had access to Saibamen. It was always my theory that Radditz left the planet to find Goku out of fear of getting killed by the inhabitants. If it's too dangerous for him to be around, then getting Goku would save him two years of fighting for his life (1 year to Earth, 1 year back). He probably justified it to Nappa and Vegeta by saying Goku's Oozaru PL would be in the 1,200-10,000 range.

Meanwhile it doesn't make any sense for Vegeta to claim Trunks can't be another Saiyan's son when he knows of the possible existence of Tarble. Especially since he's seen from Gohan that it's possible for Saiyan hybrids to become vastly superior to pureblood Saiyans. Shame has nothing do with it; Goku was a lowest ranking Saiyan and had Gohan. If anything, all this would lead Vegeta to at least believe Tarble had a kid (Trunks) and died, while Trunks survived because of his obviously impressive strength.

It all comes down to a plot hole if this special is considered apart of the so-called canon. I do not think Vegeta would have been so adamant about no other Saiyans being in existence if he knew that there was a chance that Tarble was still out there somewhere. If it is considered among the movie universe, it is no big deal.

I also believe that by the time of the special Trunks and Son Goten was far stronger than in the Buu Saga for I am pretty sure that they still had the spirit for the fight before they became teenagers and got distracted by other things.

mAcChaos · Post by **mAcChaos** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:36 pm

Just because Vegeta said something doesn't make it fact. They're fact from the character's point of view; Vegeta says wrong things all the time. I'm a SSJ against Freeza, etc., etc.

He probably just forgot about that guy and assumed he was dead. I mean, if he was a nobody and got sent out into the ravages of space why wouldn't he be dead?

Kanzenshuu

How strong are Goten and Trunks ?

How strong are Goten and Trunks ?

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