Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Yuji]

Now that SDBH is over, can someone knowledgeable on the subject creare a tier list of the strongest noticeable characters and forms?

[TobyS]

Now that SDBH is over, can someone knowledgeable on the subject creare a tier list of the strongest noticeable characters and forms?

I mean the anime has nonsensical power scaling and the game is a game so it has waves of trash enemies and assist characters you shouldn't need the help of.

Only the manga is really coherent here.

Trunks and Goku go off and train immediately basically after the first skirmish with trunks and bardock and mira.

So we no longer can scale them to canon without knowledge of their gains.

Xeno vegeta is younger than shadow dragons era gt cast as pointed out by gt pan so this debunks the idea that the xenos are from gt and scale from there.

When the super arc comes round we can see they start at their broly levels, and gogeta is above jiren and hearts.

In the next arcs they and go through another training/power ups.

Everything else takes place pre moro, we can assume ui goku is about the same and evil ki vegeta is basically a stand in for UE.

Yamcha isn't speed blitzed by mecha freeza but can't take him. Fits with bog goku not beating freeza.

Maybe we should start a herms like strength checker.

[Deadpoolio]

Now that SDBH is over, can someone knowledgeable on the subject creare a tier list of the strongest noticeable characters and forms?

Tier 1

Super Saiyan Blue (Universe Tree Power) Goku
Dark King Fu (Dogidogi absorbed)

Super Saiyan 4 Limit Breaker Xeno Gogeta (UGM)
Super Saiyan 4 Limit Breaker Broly (Transcended)
Super Saiyan 4 Limit Breaker Broly

Super Saiyan Blue Evolved Gogeta | Super Saiyan 4 Limit Break Xeno Gogeta (BB) | Xeno Vegito
Dark King Fu

Tier 2

Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta | Vegito (BBM)

Dark King Demigra
Legendary Super Saiyan Broly
Super Saiyan Rose Full Power Goku Black
Ultimate Hearts
Super Fu

Tier 3

Ultra Instinct Goku
Super Saiyan Blue (Berserk Controlled) Vegeta

Majin Ozotto (Transformed)

Ultra Instinct Sign Goku | Super Saiyan Blue Evolved Vegeta | Super Saiyan 4 Limit Breaker Xeno Goku | Xeno Vegeta

Giant Kamioren
Aeos (Time Power Unleashed)
Super Saiyan 3 Bardock (Dark Ki)

Super Saiyan Rose 3 Goku Black

Super Saiyan 2 Rose Goku Black
Super Saiyan Xeno Bardock

Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black

Tier 4

Golden Rampaging Meta-Cooler
Super Saiyan 3 Full Power Cumber | Turles (Evil Saiyan)

Super Saiyan 4 Xeno Vegito (UM)
Super Saiyan 3 Cumber | Rampaging Meta-Cooler
Dark King Mechikabura

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito Kaio-ken | Cumber
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito (UM)

Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaio-ken X20

Tier 5

Xeno Bardock | Goku Black
Black Janemba
Super Hearts
Kamioren

Tier 6

Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta | Super Saiyan 4 Xeno Goku | Xeno Vegeta
Golden Frieza | Cooler | Meta-Cooler

Ultimate Gohan
Turles | Bojack
Hit
Android 17

Tier 7

Super Saiyan God Goku
Super Saiyan God Xeno Trunks
Super Saiyan Future Gohan (Dark Ki) | Vidro

Tier 8

Super Saiyan 3 Xeno Goku | Xeno Vegeta
Super Saiyan 3 Xeno Trunks

Super Saiyan Berserk Goku | Cooler
Super Saiyan 2 Goku

Tier 9

Piccolo

Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan Gohan | Trunks
Dr. Wheelo (True Form) | Lagss
Kamin | Oren
Super Saiyan Caulifla | Kale

Tier 10

Goku | Vegeta | Xeno Goku | Xeno Vegeta
Gohan | Trunks | Xeno Gohan | Xeno Trunks
Kamin-Kale | Oren-Caulifla

Krillin
Tien Shinhan
Yamcha
Xeno Pan

[Yuji]

Now that SDBH is over, can someone knowledgeable on the subject creare a tier list of the strongest noticeable characters and forms?

Tier 1

Super Saiyan Blue (Universe Tree Power) Goku
Dark King Fu (Dogidogi absorbed)

Super Saiyan 4 Limit Breaker Xeno Gogeta (UGM)
Super Saiyan 4 Limit Breaker Broly (Transcended)
Super Saiyan 4 Limit Breaker Broly

Super Saiyan Blue Evolved Gogeta | Super Saiyan 4 Limit Break Xeno Gogeta (BB) | Xeno Vegito
Dark King Fu

Tier 2

Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta | Vegito (BBM)

Dark King Demigra
Legendary Super Saiyan Broly
Super Saiyan Rose Full Power Goku Black
Ultimate Hearts
Super Fu

Tier 3

Ultra Instinct Goku
Super Saiyan Blue (Berserk Controlled) Vegeta

Majin Ozotto (Transformed)

Ultra Instinct Sign Goku | Super Saiyan Blue Evolved Vegeta | Super Saiyan 4 Limit Breaker Xeno Goku | Xeno Vegeta

Giant Kamioren
Aeos (Time Power Unleashed)
Super Saiyan 3 Bardock (Dark Ki)

Super Saiyan Rose 3 Goku Black

Super Saiyan 2 Rose Goku Black
Super Saiyan Xeno Bardock

Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black

Tier 4

Golden Rampaging Meta-Cooler
Super Saiyan 3 Full Power Cumber | Turles (Evil Saiyan)

Super Saiyan 4 Xeno Vegito (UM)
Super Saiyan 3 Cumber | Rampaging Meta-Cooler
Dark King Mechikabura

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito Kaio-ken | Cumber
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito (UM)

Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaio-ken X20

Tier 5

Xeno Bardock | Goku Black
Black Janemba
Super Hearts
Kamioren

Tier 6

Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta | Super Saiyan 4 Xeno Goku | Xeno Vegeta
Golden Frieza | Cooler | Meta-Cooler

Ultimate Gohan
Turles | Bojack
Hit
Android 17

Tier 7

Super Saiyan God Goku
Super Saiyan God Xeno Trunks
Super Saiyan Future Gohan (Dark Ki) | Vidro

Tier 8

Super Saiyan 3 Xeno Goku | Xeno Vegeta
Super Saiyan 3 Xeno Trunks

Super Saiyan Berserk Goku | Cooler
Super Saiyan 2 Goku

Tier 9

Piccolo

Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan Gohan | Trunks
Dr. Wheelo (True Form) | Lagss
Kamin | Oren
Super Saiyan Caulifla | Kale

Tier 10

Goku | Vegeta | Xeno Goku | Xeno Vegeta
Gohan | Trunks | Xeno Gohan | Xeno Trunks
Kamin-Kale | Oren-Caulifla

Krillin
Tien Shinhan
Yamcha
Xeno Pan

Do we have a clue of how the upper tiers contend with Beerus and the angels?

[Deadpoolio]

Do we have a clue of how the upper tiers contend with Beerus and the angels?

I don't recall any direct references to such. There was certainly nothing to imply anyone was a match for an Angel.

That said if you mix and match your media, Heroes did reference the events of the Broly movie.

The same movie where Broly was said to probably be stronger than Beerus and where Broly was soundly outmatched by Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta who should surely be stronger than Beerus by that line of thinking.

And as my above post suggests there were quite a few characters above that. There were stronger versions of Gogeta, Xeno Gogeta and Xeno Vegito than what we saw from Gogeta in the Broly movie.

Fu trounced a suped up Gogeta and Xeno Gogeta at the same time.

So again if you took Goku's word as true and take it all as one continuity you should get

Goku > Fu > Evolved / Limit Breaker Gogeta / Xeno Gogeta / Xeno Vegito > Gogeta > Broly >= Beerus

[QuakingStar]

Fu caused their Fusion Time Limits to run out, he didn't beat them by power.

[Deadpoolio]

That was for the manga version.

[QuakingStar]

I saw people say they think Cabba could beat GT Goku earlier, I'm pretty sure one of ya'll in here listed GT Goku's feats and scaling before and I do NOT see Cabba beating that.

[DBZ Macky]

I saw people say they think Cabba could beat GT Goku earlier, I'm pretty sure one of ya'll in here listed GT Goku's feats and scaling before and I do NOT see Cabba beating that.

Literally the only reason me and I guess most other people scale Cabba to being Universal is because of this statement right here. And nothing outright dismisses it except for perhaps Fat Buu making short work of Basil who could've just been much weaker than Cabba and the rest at that point.

Note that Vegeta's talking to himself here so it's not like he has a reason to lie to himself or the audience.

So Cabba should be on the same level as Copy Vegeta who tanked SS3 Gotenks attack in his base form.

[Hugo Boss]

I saw people say they think Cabba could beat GT Goku earlier, I'm pretty sure one of ya'll in here listed GT Goku's feats and scaling before and I do NOT see Cabba beating that.

I guess it depends on which story arc you consider. I think ToP and maybe Champa arc Cabba can beat Black Star Dragon Balls arc Goku, but not Baby arc Goku, who can access SS3 and SS4.

[The Monkey King]

I saw people say they think Cabba could beat GT Goku earlier, I'm pretty sure one of ya'll in here listed GT Goku's feats and scaling before and I do NOT see Cabba beating that.

GT characters have no feats. Omega Shenron couldn't even kill exhausted base saiyans lol

[Yuji]

Reminder that the SSG-tier base nonsense isn't in the manga. Cabba is equal to a slightly stronger Boo arc base Vegeta, which is more than coherent and leagues below any relevant GT character.

[QuakingStar]

Reminder that the SSG-tier base nonsense isn't in the manga. Cabba is equal to a slightly stronger Boo arc base Vegeta, which is more than coherent and leagues below any relevant GT character.

Not just this, DBS anime is the sequel to the DBKai anime. DBGT is the sequel to the DBZ anime and is also connected to some of the DBZ movies. Buuhans power alone was threatening to destroy the universe and the whole dimension in the Buu Arc and SS Vegito had to get serious to stop him. Goku said SBV1 was the strongest he had ever sensed and he had already sensed Buuhan as Vegito and knows what his own power as Vegito was like. He also casually thrashed Frieza and SPCell while in base form.

[SupremeKai25]

Reminder that the SSG-tier base nonsense isn't in the manga. Cabba is equal to a slightly stronger Boo arc base Vegeta, which is more than coherent and leagues below any relevant GT character.

Why does the Manga matter? GT doesn't even exist in the Manga continuity.

It literally makes no sense to compare a Toei-made anime series to a non-Toei manga for powerscaling purposes.

[DBZ Macky]

Reminder that the SSG-tier base nonsense isn't in the manga. Cabba is equal to a slightly stronger Boo arc base Vegeta, which is more than coherent and leagues below any relevant GT character.

Why does the Manga matter? GT doesn't even exist in the Manga continuity.

It literally makes no sense to compare a Toei-made anime series to a non-Toei manga for powerscaling purposes.

It is certainly another point of reference to get what Toriyama's intention with the story was, though. As things stand, Cabba is stronger than SSG Goku from BoG and by extension should be stronger than the GT characters. But was that Toriyama's intention? I think probably not.

I don't play the mobile games but apparently in Legends Cabba is portrayed as weaker than Cell, which would put him around the Buu Saga Saiyans. Though I'm not sure with this since I think it's also stated that Cell got stronger or something so I'd appreciate if someone more familiar with the game can chime in.

On a related note, how strong do you folks think Basil and Lavender are supposed to be? The former lost to Mr. Buu and the latter to a Gohan who couldn't even go Super Saiyan 2. Yet both of them are later shown to fight on par with Base Goku in the Tournament of Power. Do you think they just got that strong off-screen similar to how Gohan came close to SSB Goku's level after training for like a few episodes? Or do you think Goku was just holding back, or perhaps a combination of both factors?

[TobyS]

Reminder that the SSG-tier base nonsense isn't in the manga. Cabba is equal to a slightly stronger Boo arc base Vegeta, which is more than coherent and leagues below any relevant GT character.

Why does the Manga matter? GT doesn't even exist in the Manga continuity.

It literally makes no sense to compare a Toei-made anime series to a non-Toei manga for powerscaling purposes.

It is certainly another point of reference to get what Toriyama's intention with the story was, though. As things stand, Cabba is stronger than SSG Goku from BoG and by extension should be stronger than the GT characters. But was that Toriyama's intention? I think probably not.

I don't play the mobile games but apparently in Legends Cabba is portrayed as weaker than Cell, which would put him around the Buu Saga Saiyans. Though I'm not sure with this since I think it's also stated that Cell got stronger or something so I'd appreciate if someone more familiar with the game can chime in.

On a related note, how strong do you folks think Basil and Lavender are supposed to be? The former lost to Mr. Buu and the latter to a Gohan who couldn't even go Super Saiyan 2. Yet both of them are later shown to fight on par with Base Goku in the Tournament of Power. Do you think they just got that strong off-screen similar to how Gohan came close to SSB Goku's level after training for like a few episodes? Or do you think Goku was just holding back, or perhaps a combination of both factors?

Because every time those other examples are brought up Super Anime fans get told the same thing but don't like the answer.
Because even the anime has soft retconned the god power in base shit. It's that simple.
The anime has outliers like Base Goku vs costumed Beerus, but it also has Goku vs Gohan in the same forms.

Regarding legends, yes Cabba is not god tier plus the ss multipliers, he's not above cell games gohan in lower forms, who unlike Cell isn't more powerful than his canon counterpart.

It's not just them either, others like the magical girls just aren't automatically god tier either by extension.

Despite including anime only forms like kaioken blue, they are either going by manga scaling or the retconned anime scaling.

God in base is dead, people have to accept it.

[Yuji]

Yes, if you believe that base Goku is SSG tier then you necessarily have to believe that:

1. Future Trunks is that strong despite being malnourished warding off Black and struggling with Dabra the same year
2. Gohan is that strong despite not training.
3. 18 is that strong because she defeated a Pride Trooper that base Goku couldn't, plus Ribrianne.
4. Kuririn is that strong because he forced Goku to turn Super Saiyan.
5. Tenshinhan and Roshi are that strong for being relative to Kuririn.
6. Every single ToP contestant is that strong.

In essence since everyone scales to base Goku and Vegeta, everyone is SSG tier and stronger than Super Vegetto because base Goku has tons of anti-feats in the ToP especially.

[QuakingStar]

Yes, if you believe that base Goku is SSG tier then you necessarily have to believe that:

1. Future Trunks is that strong despite being malnourished warding off Black and struggling with Dabra the same year
2. Gohan is that strong despite not training.
3. 18 is that strong because she defeated a Pride Trooper that base Goku couldn't, plus Ribrianne.
4. Kuririn is that strong because he forced Goku to turn Super Saiyan.
5. Tenshinhan and Roshi are that strong for being relative to Kuririn.
6. Every single ToP contestant is that strong.

In essence since everyone scales to base Goku and Vegeta, everyone is SSG tier and stronger than Super Vegetto because base Goku has tons of anti-feats in the ToP especially.

Yeah it's pretty clear the SSG powerered base Saiyan stuff was retconned so it's not a good thing to use for scaling.

[SupremeKai25]

Why is r/Ningen filled with SS4 Gogeta vs. Cabba posts? Did I miss a plot point or...? Did someone here get that idea?

To be fair, when people say Cabba > SS4 Gogeta, it's to prove that Super power levels > GT. But you don't even need to mention Cabba. You could just point to SSG Goku and 10% Beerus threatening to destroy the universe just by clashing fists, which is beyond anything any GT character can do besides, maybe, SS4 Gogeta (and I'm just being generous here since he doesn't have these kind of statements or feats at all).

I will say, it's strange how people here place Kefla (fusion of two SSJ2) above Fused Zamasu (fusion of a SSJB-tier fighter) because "U6 Saiyans are just built different lol" but then they back-track and place Cabba below Buu-saga characters because "oh there's no way a mere SSJ2 can be that strong". Are U6 Saiyans built different or not?

[Hugo Boss]

Why is r/Ningen filled with SS4 Gogeta vs. Cabba posts? Did I miss a plot point or...? Did someone here get that idea?

L.O.L.

The main issue is that Super and GT operate under slightly different philosophies when it comes to power levels.

In Super, transformations like Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan Blue, and Ultra Instinct are portrayed with feats that involve universal or even multiversal implications, such as Goku and Beerus’ clash nearly destroying the universe or Zamasu taking over an entire timeline. These feats are used to emphasize the exponential growth in power that has taken place. GT, on the other hand, had a more grounded approach, focusing less on universe-level destruction and more on physical combat within a more contained setting. There aren’t the same kind of universal-scale feats to back it up, you barely feel a sense of escalation.

It mostly comes down to the context in which they exist. Some fans believe the U6 Saiyans are “built different” due to the rapid progress Cabba, Kale, and Caulifla made in a short time. But they’ve fought in contexts where power levels fluctuate inconsistently. Base Saiyans being both as strong as SSG and Krillin. Berserker Kale being both stronger and weaker than a Super Saiyan Blue.