Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

I thought they could be that strong exactly because of SSJ mechanics. The series considers the difference between SSJ and SSJ2 negligible after the Cell Saga, specially in Super with Zeno not even noticing a difference.

Other than comparing Trunks and Gohan, Super has never bothered to compare new characters with old ones. The writers aren't concerned with these comparisons in the slightiest, this is just trying way too hard to invalidate an educated guess.

It’s true that Dragon Ball Super doesn’t always focus on the distinction between SS and SS2 the way Dragon Ball Z did, but that doesn’t mean the power gap has disappeared, the multiplier and hierarchy of forms still exist. Within the context of classic Super Saiyan forms, the difference between SS and SS2 remains meaningful. Gohan’s SS2 transformation during the Cell Games was far more powerful than his SS form, and there’s no evidence that Goku, Vegeta, Trunks and Cabba’s SS form would somehow jump to a level where it surpasses Gohan’s SS2.

You’re right that Super doesn’t always make direct comparisons between new and old characters, but that doesn’t invalidate power scaling altogether. The writers aren’t necessarily concerned with continuity when introducing new characters, but we can still infer relative power levels based on past performances and transformations. It’s important to weigh an educated guess against established rules from earlier arcs. If SS Cabba were on par with or stronger than SS2 Gohan from the Cell Games, this would imply a massive power boost in his base form that isn’t explicitly shown or hinted at. Additionally, no indication is given that Cabba’s SS transformation is particularly special or far beyond that of other Saiyans (hence why the meme has been running in the past few days on the internet).

[ZombieVito]

Still not supposed to be short bursts of CSSB tho. Vegeta states that CSSB was beyond what he could do, so his God-Blue switch strategy was better than regular Blue but still not enough to allow him to acess 100% of the power of the form

Basically, SSB's full power was only achieved by sealing its overflowing power. Aside from that, other attempts to improve the form merely allowed them to get closer to use its full power (Goku Vs Hit and Vegeta Vs Black), but still not quite there

This is not what it's said it. They can access the full power of SSB already but only for a short while.



The switch technique allows Vegeta to access that full power without losing stamina but only for an instant so it's inferior to PSSB since he can't fight at 100% power constantly.

Yes, but Vegeta by the Saga that Copy Vegeta apears in is vastly stronger than the U6 v U7 Vegeta as well. U6 v U7 Vegeta is probably Fat Buu level in base at best and to add to this, Fat Buu didn't get stronger until the ToP which to further add it was never stated how much stronger he got, he could have went to Skinny Evil Buu's level or power or even Super Buu's level of power since he got buff like Super Buu. Oh, and Piccolo is only above SS2 Gohan level in the ToP, SS2 Gohan here had not trained since the FT Arc and Piccolo had to bring Senzu Beans to get him back into fighting shape.

Vastly stronger?

The Copy Vegeta arc happens very shortly after the U6 tournament. It's only a few days after it.

[QuakingStar]

Still not supposed to be short bursts of CSSB tho. Vegeta states that CSSB was beyond what he could do, so his God-Blue switch strategy was better than regular Blue but still not enough to allow him to acess 100% of the power of the form

Basically, SSB's full power was only achieved by sealing its overflowing power. Aside from that, other attempts to improve the form merely allowed them to get closer to use its full power (Goku Vs Hit and Vegeta Vs Black), but still not quite there

This is not what it's said it. They can access the full power of SSB already but only for a short while.



The switch technique allows Vegeta to access that full power without losing stamina but only for an instant so it's inferior to PSSB since he can't fight at 100% power constantly.

Yes, but Vegeta by the Saga that Copy Vegeta apears in is vastly stronger than the U6 v U7 Vegeta as well. U6 v U7 Vegeta is probably Fat Buu level in base at best and to add to this, Fat Buu didn't get stronger until the ToP which to further add it was never stated how much stronger he got, he could have went to Skinny Evil Buu's level or power or even Super Buu's level of power since he got buff like Super Buu. Oh, and Piccolo is only above SS2 Gohan level in the ToP, SS2 Gohan here had not trained since the FT Arc and Piccolo had to bring Senzu Beans to get him back into fighting shape.

Vastly stronger?

The Copy Vegeta arc happens very shortly after the U6 tournament. It's only a few days after it.

I do not recall it being a few days after, where was the indication for that??

[ZombieVito]

I do not recall it being a few days after, where was the indication for that??

Kaio says Goku's Ki sickness happens a few days after using SSBKK10.

[ankokudaishogun]

I'll also add that increases in Blue power doesn't necessarily translate in increased in lower forms

[nineko]

Off topic, but it always looks weird whenever Vegeta calls Goku by his earthling name, I know he's replying in tone to Trunks here, but this never stopped him from using Goku's Saiyan name before even when replying to people, I wonder why they wrote that line in this way.

[ankokudaishogun]

I wonder why they wrote that line in this way.

Most likely just an error.

on a completely unrelated note... how strong would you people think was Caulifla's brother?

[Hugo Boss]

how strong would you people think was Caulifla's brother?

It’s implied he is way weaker than Caulifla, so perhaps a rival to Raditz?

[ankokudaishogun]

how strong would you people think was Caulifla's brother?

It’s implied he is way weaker than Caulifla, so perhaps a rival to Raditz?

to my recalling, he wasn't implied much weaker than Caulifla: Cabba was trained by him, held him in high respect and beelined to him to recruit him for the ToP.
HE said Caulifla was stronger, but also that he was useless with a lame leg

so I woudn't say "about Raditz"

[ZombieVito]

to my recalling, he wasn't implied much weaker than Caulifla: Cabba was trained by him, held him in high respect and beelined to him to recruit him for the ToP.
HE said Caulifla was stronger, but also that he was useless with a lame leg

so I woudn't say "about Raditz"

I'm sure he was joking.

[smiley]

How do people interpret the statement that Gamma 1 & 2 are on-par with Goku and Vegeta?

This would mean Orange Piccolo is stronger than Goku, which I think is nonsense.

[QuakingStar]

How do people interpret the statement that Gamma 1 & 2 are on-par with Goku and Vegeta?

This would mean Orange Piccolo is stronger than Goku, which I think is nonsense.

They are SSB level, Orange is supposed to make Piccolo on par with Goku and Vegeta. So basically Orange in terms of power is up in the UI and UE tier while the Gammas are in the SSB tier in tems of power.

[Koitsukai]

How do people interpret the statement that Gamma 1 & 2 are on-par with Goku and Vegeta?

This would mean Orange Piccolo is stronger than Goku, which I think is nonsense.

Stronger than SSB Goku, sure.

[Yuji]

But how strong is Yellow Piccolo? SSG? Between SSG and SSB? SSB?

[QuakingStar]

"What were some concepts and such that unfortunately got shelved?
I was given quite a bit of freedom working on GT, so aside from whether they were animated or not, the ideas were limitless. For each character, plenty of subplots existed that never made it to the screen.

For instance, in Gohan’s case, there was apparently so much as an “Ultimate Gohan” concept in Dragon Ball Z, where he was a super-warrior with might surpassing Goku, but in GT, he’s a scholar who’s given up fighting almost entirely. But for someone who had given up fighting like that to return to the front lines, I thought that naturally there needed to be quite a bit of drama involved.

Around the Super 17 arc in the animation, he came back as a super-warrior all of a sudden, but actually, I personally wanted to put in a heroic episode telling the reason he started fighting again. For instance, people he loved, like Videl, had been hurt, and when in the depths of anguish, he happened to open up his wardrobe, inside was his dōgi from fondly-remembered times. Together with the line, “To think there’d come a day I’d wear this again…”, he brushes off Chi-Chi, who in tears is trying to stop him, and makes a shocking, lightning entrance on the battlefield. Considering the status of the character, I wanted to spend one or two episodes showing that level of resolve, and I recall having even written the plot for it. But it’s a subplot that diverges from the main story, I guess you could say, so due to various circumstances, it never came to fruition, and it ended up stopping at the level of, he takes off his glasses, and takes on the eyes of a warrior. (laughs)

I can’t tell everything, but including both things that made it to animation and things that were shelved, I believe that GT is the crystallization of all the ideas that were spun together like that in that atmosphere of freedom."

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... -story-qa/

Wow, I somehow missed this.. so Gohan in S17 Saga is essentially at or above his Ultimate Gohan level of power yet both base Vegeta and base Goku are clearly stronger. That makes them each Buutenks level or above in power while in base form.

[ZombieVito]

How do people interpret the statement that Gamma 1 & 2 are on-par with Goku and Vegeta?

This would mean Orange Piccolo is stronger than Goku, which I think is nonsense.

Gammas are SSB tier since they are slightly weaker than Ultimate Gohan.

Orange Piccolo rivals UI Goku/UE Vegeta.

[Koitsukai]

But how strong is Yellow Piccolo? SSG? Between SSG and SSB? SSB?

He fought Gamma and lost after a decent fight. SSB tier sounds about right. Lower than that would make Gamma look like a jobber.

[Hugo Boss]

How do people interpret the statement that Gamma 1 & 2 are on-par with Goku and Vegeta?

This would mean Orange Piccolo is stronger than Goku, which I think is nonsense.

The statement likely refers to their strength relative to Goku and Vegeta in their Super Saiyan Blue forms, as they give a serious fight to Ultimate Gohan and Piccolo, though the exact match-up is a bit tricky. While it’s hard to pinpoint the exact tier, it’s safe to say that Orange Piccolo surpasses both Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta in raw power, especially since Gohan Beast and Orange Piccolo are key in the battle against Cell Max, where even the Gammas couldn’t keep up. He is likely closer to SSB Goku and Vegeta when they are utilizing a higher level of their Blue forms or perhaps even approaching their Ultra Instinct or Ultra Ego levels, depending on how much they are holding back.

But how strong is Yellow Piccolo? SSG? Between SSG and SSB? SSB?

Compared to Goku’s and Vegeta’s transformations, it seems logical to place him between Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue. Piccolo's strength in this form was enough to stand up to Gamma 2, but ultimately failed to beat him. This suggests that he isn’t quite at the level of SSB Goku or Vegeta in their prime. However, he could be compared to the lower spectrum of SSB-tier fighters.

Wow, I somehow missed this.. so Gohan in S17 Saga is essentially at or above his Ultimate Gohan level of power yet both base Vegeta and base Goku are clearly stronger. That makes them each Buutenks level or above in power while in base form.

The quote you provided doesn't directly imply that Gohan is on the level of his Ultimate form from Dragon Ball Z, it's rather the opposite. It highlights how Gohan had given up fighting and was focused on being a scholar. This shift in focus suggests that he might not have maintained the same power level as he did during his old days. For example, during the Super 17 Saga, Gohan does fight, but he doesn’t exhibit the same overwhelming power or presence that his Ultimate form did in Z. The quote even mentions how Gohan’s return was more about taking off his glasses and stepping back into the battlefield, rather than a full transformation into his Ultimate form.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I always figured that Gamma 1 and 2 were stand-ins for SSB Goku and Vegeta, having similarly contrasted personalities and levels of power alongside comparisons to the direct predecessor in DBS: Broly.

Also to show Gohan's growth, showing that he could surpass his dad with his rage-boosted Ultimate state making him slightly superior as well as showing Piccolo close to that level in his own Ultimate state; same goes for their respective ascended forms, Beast and Orange.

[QuakingStar]

How do people interpret the statement that Gamma 1 & 2 are on-par with Goku and Vegeta?

This would mean Orange Piccolo is stronger than Goku, which I think is nonsense.

The statement likely refers to their strength relative to Goku and Vegeta in their Super Saiyan Blue forms, as they give a serious fight to Ultimate Gohan and Piccolo, though the exact match-up is a bit tricky. While it’s hard to pinpoint the exact tier, it’s safe to say that Orange Piccolo surpasses both Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta in raw power, especially since Gohan Beast and Orange Piccolo are key in the battle against Cell Max, where even the Gammas couldn’t keep up. He is likely closer to SSB Goku and Vegeta when they are utilizing a higher level of their Blue forms or perhaps even approaching their Ultra Instinct or Ultra Ego levels, depending on how much they are holding back.

But how strong is Yellow Piccolo? SSG? Between SSG and SSB? SSB?

Compared to Goku’s and Vegeta’s transformations, it seems logical to place him between Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue. Piccolo's strength in this form was enough to stand up to Gamma 2, but ultimately failed to beat him. This suggests that he isn’t quite at the level of SSB Goku or Vegeta in their prime. However, he could be compared to the lower spectrum of SSB-tier fighters.

Wow, I somehow missed this.. so Gohan in S17 Saga is essentially at or above his Ultimate Gohan level of power yet both base Vegeta and base Goku are clearly stronger. That makes them each Buutenks level or above in power while in base form.

The quote you provided doesn't directly imply that Gohan is on the level of his Ultimate form from Dragon Ball Z, it's rather the opposite. It highlights how Gohan had given up fighting and was focused on being a scholar. This shift in focus suggests that he might not have maintained the same power level as he did during his old days. For example, during the Super 17 Saga, Gohan does fight, but he doesn’t exhibit the same overwhelming power or presence that his Ultimate form did in Z. The quote even mentions how Gohan’s return was more about taking off his glasses and stepping back into the battlefield, rather than a full transformation into his Ultimate form.

Ultimate Piccolo transformation is definitely Perfected Super Saiyan Blue level in power, his normal base state is weaker than base Goku already, the power he gains puts him right at the Gammas but on the losing end. We know this because base Goku AND base Vegeta are basically tied and base Goku was able to spar evenly with Broly.

For Orange Piccolo he is said to be on Par with Goku and the others, which really would just mean he is in the same tier as UI and UE Goku and Vegeta when using it, does it mean he is as strong or stronger than them? Most likely not. But again, the leap in power he gains from Base to Orange is higher than what Goku and Vegeta would gain from base to UI and base to UE.

and Nope, GT doesn't treat the Ultimate form as a state or a transformation. They just say he was a Super-Warrior, which when he shows up in S17 Saga he is a Super-Warrior again which we can see they are referring to his power and not a state or transformation. They simply didn't get to SHOW Gohan reaching that level again or give him a flashy entrance which is what they wanted to do.