Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TobyS]

Reminder that the SSG-tier base nonsense isn't in the manga. Cabba is equal to a slightly stronger Boo arc base Vegeta, which is more than coherent and leagues below any relevant GT character.

Negative.

Base Goku is way stronger than Shin as proven in the GoD exhibition match and so is Cabba by being equal to Vegeta in the same forms.

I never bought that whatsoever, it's just done to be funny to show shin getting owned, it's more of a gag to me. Maybe his hearing is better maybe it effects gods more, maybe shin had less good footing.

BOG base goku is weaker than freeza, and shin was already stronger than Kamiccolo, and this is assuming he hasn't trained.

Goku has trained with Whis, but he's only about half as strong as Trunks SS2 while in SS2 as well (because ss3 is equal) And Trunks doesn't have god ki or trained with Whis, it's just gone back to the scaling of a well trained hybrid is stronger than the full saiyans in the same forms.

Goku can't be at all relative to Trunks and be stronger than Shin in base, the scaling and multipliers don't allow it.

Shin has a feat of surviving against SS2 tier Zamasu for a little while, while holding him off for Goku and Vegeta to escape.

[Thani]

Have to agree. Goku in "base" suffered the effects the same way as the Gods of Destruction fighting there? That simply doesn't work narratively.

What does work is the scene imply that Goku is beyond the Supreme Kais in general. Which he is, since his full power at the time was Perfected Super Saiyan Blue.

[DBZ Macky]

Let's actually ignore the patchwork story for a second here and ask ourselves, do you think the staff actually thinks that Cabba should be stronger than Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta?

Keep in mind that "the staff" includes guys like Koyama who thinks his baby Broly is the strongest evar just for guys like Toriyama to go "Nuh-uh my cat is the strongest!" and being so adamant with it to the point that even after a decade, even after the poor man's untimely demise, Beerus has still not been surpassed "for realsies" despite being it stated multiple times that "X character might even be stronger than Beerus-sama!"

Does anyone else remember how Beerus stated that Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta made him use 10% of his power? Or the time when SSG Goku made him use 70% of his power? Seriously is this guy just bad at math? That would certainly be a funny in-universe explanation. Imagine if Gohan's the only guy in the Universe who actually knows how math works and that's why we have stuff like the infamous Five Freeza Minutes™.


If Beerus can be a moving goalpost, why can't Gogeta?

I get that it's humorous to think about stickman Cabba being stronger than the strongest character from GT but if we really think about it from a multimedia perspective it's just not going to happen.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The point of that scene is to saying Kaioshin is a total wimp. You can't dismiss it as a joke if the joke is literally about how weak he is.

I like to have the anime and manga scale the same when possible, so I imagine the Saiyans can be some 10x stronger than in the Boo Saga and that Cabba got a good deal stronger too.

That's quite literally impossible considering Vegeta loses in SSB after eating a Senzu to SS1 Black and after training in the RoSaT beats SSR Black with his SSG+SSB combo. He had to get stronger, it wasn't just a strategy.

Eating a senzu once doesn't stop Vegeta's stamina from dropping again. The manga goes out of its way to say stamina was the only thing that mattered.

[ZombieVito]

No? He has the gel aura still and Vegeta implies Goku's mastery of the form was unattainable.

Yes. It's a burst so it makes sense it has an aura still for the instant he activates it.

Also, Goku has 0 gains between the end of the Zamasu arc and the start of the ToP so Vegeta can't be stronger than him since they are both on par with each other during the tournament.

The point of that scene is to saying Kaioshin is a total wimp. You can't dismiss it as a joke if the joke is literally about how weak he is.

The scene is as straightforward and clear as possible and the mental gymnastics people do to discredit it is hilarious.

[Hugo Boss]

How strong is Super Vegetto anyway?

Based on Dragon Ball Z, it’s unclear if Super Vegetto would surpass SSG Goku in the Battle of Gods arc, but Goku does state that Vegetto wouldn’t have been enough to beat Beerus. This suggests that while Super Vegetto is immensely powerful, the gap to god-tier beings like Beerus remained significant in the Battle of Gods.

As for the portrayal of Kefla in the Tournament of Power, her power is highly debated, but her base form does overpower Goku’s SSG. This could imply that the newer fusions, especially between the U6 Saiyan girls, yield greater power than previously seen. The scaling of fusion fluctuates, with Super generally treating fusions as more potent, which supports the theory that Super Vegetto could rival SSG Goku in the right circumstances.

Regarding SS4 and Blue, Dragon Ball Heroes generally treat Xeno SS4 and SSB as being close in power, though with some divergence in mechanics and application. This balance aligns with the idea that Super Vegetto, SS4 Goku, and SSG Goku are somewhat comparable, though Dragon Ball Super seems to consistently push fusions above singular transformations like SSG.

If I had to say, given the feats and scaling we’ve seen until now, I would conclude that Super Vegetto would likely fall closer in power to Super Saiyan God (SSG) rather than Super Saiyan Blue (SSB). The introduction of godly ki and forms like SSG introduces a different level of power that outpaces anything seen before. Goku himself mentions that even Vegetto wouldn’t have been able to defeat Beerus, implying that SSG was required to bridge that gap. Since SSB is a more refined combination of Super Saiyan and godly ki, I’d argue that SSB remains above Super Vegetto’s power level as seen in Dragon Ball Z.

In conclusion, his power would align more closely with SSG.

I like to have the anime and manga scale the same when possible, so I imagine the Saiyans can be some 10x stronger than in the Boo Saga and that Cabba got a good deal stronger too.

Given that U6 Saiyans are more naturally inclined to transform and power up without needing the same rigorous training and emotional triggers that Goku and Vegeta experienced, it’s plausible that Cabba could outclass many Boo-saga characters by the time of the Tournament of Power.

However, the comparison between SS2 Goku and SS2 Future Trunks, where Trunks is compared to SS2 Gohan from the Cell Games, does suggest that Super Saiyan forms of Goku and Vegeta hadn’t grown exponentially stronger post-Boo arc, even though their overall power increased. This would indicate that while Cabba might outclass Boo-saga Vegeta in terms of potential and rapid growth, he may not have an astronomical advantage over earlier Super Saiyan forms.

In conclusion, Cabba could realistically be stronger than Boo-saga Vegeta, potentially even by a wide margin, but the idea that he’s about 10 times stronger doesn’t seem plausible.

[QuakingStar]

Ok, I don't get what people are doing here.. are we conflating the DBS Manga and Anime or just using the canon(Manga) for Cabba or just the anime? If we are using the anime the Copy Vegeta stuff is complete filler anyway and Godlike Saiyan doesn't exist. The idea of base Goku and Base Vegeta being as strong as or stronger than when Goku was a SSG was definitely retconned. Future Trunks was about equal in base and in the same forms. I don't think anything indicated base Vegeta had actually gotten 10x stronger than base Vegeta from right after Pure Boos defeat but we do know he got stronger. Now GT Goku alone had gotten so stronger compared to his base self from Z that his base form casually thrashed SPCell and Frieza at the same time and he only felt he needed SS to beat a Kid Boo level enemy in Rild. He gets far stronger than even that all the way to the Shadow Dragon Saga. GT is inconsistent and wonky as hell that's for sure.

[ZombieVito]

Ok, I don't get what people are doing here.. are we conflating the DBS Manga and Anime or just using the canon(Manga) for Cabba or just the anime? If we are using the anime the Copy Vegeta stuff is complete filler anyway and Godlike Saiyan doesn't exist. The idea of base Goku and Base Vegeta being as strong as or stronger than when Goku was a SSG was definitely retconned. Future Trunks was about equal in base and in the same forms. I don't think anything indicated base Vegeta had actually gotten 10x stronger than base Vegeta from right after Pure Boos defeat but we do know he got stronger. Now GT Goku alone had gotten so stronger compared to his base self from Z that his base form casually thrashed SPCell and Frieza at the same time and he only felt he needed SS to beat a Kid Boo level enemy in Rild. He gets far stronger than even that all the way to the Shadow Dragon Saga. GT is inconsistent and wonky as hell that's for sure.

There's no filler in DBS.

Also, we have other examples of base Goku being very strong. Like him being also to fight a stronger Boo:



Or him being able to push back Piccolo's charged explosive wave:

[GreatSaiyaman123]

However, the comparison between SS2 Goku and SS2 Future Trunks, where Trunks is compared to SS2 Gohan from the Cell Games, does suggest that Super Saiyan forms of Goku and Vegeta hadn’t grown exponentially stronger post-Boo arc, even though their overall power increased. This would indicate that while Cabba might outclass Boo-saga Vegeta in terms of potential and rapid growth, he may not have an astronomical advantage over earlier Super Saiyan forms.

In conclusion, Cabba could realistically be stronger than Boo-saga Vegeta, potentially even by a wide margin, but the idea that he’s about 10 times stronger doesn’t seem plausible.

10x might seem big, but knowing SSJ is a 50x multiplier makes it seem like nothing. Base Trunks wouldn't even touch SSJ Gohan, let alone SSJ2 Gohan... And that interpretation of Goku's line was always a forced thing anyway. "You're even stronger than X" has never meant "You're just a bit stronger than X".

And that's just because I'm trying to find a middle ground between anime and manga here. If not for that I think Trunks could be just 2x Gohan (Which some people here have considered excessive before too).

[Hugo Boss]

It’s true that Dragon Ball often leaves these lines open to interpretation, but I don’t think, in this case, it necessarily means Trunks surpassed Gohan by a large margin either, but rather that he had grown significantly since his last major appearance. That said, a “2x stronger” estimation seems more reasonable than an extreme power jump like 10x, but even this is speculative. It’s doubtful that Cabba or Trunks are twice as powerful as Gohan from the Cell Games for reasons mainly revolving around the mechanics of the Super Saiyan transformations.

In Dragon Ball Super, Cabba’s Super Saiyan form is an important milestone for him but not game-changing. He struggles against Vegeta in his base form, and there is no indication that his SS form is somehow superior to the SS2 transformation. If Cabba’s SS form were meant to be stronger than SS2 Gohan from the Cell Games, the show or manga would have likely highlighted this fact more explicitly, as Dragon Ball tends to directly mention significant power leaps. SS2 is objectively stronger than SS1, and unless there is some special condition (like fusion or godly powers or rage boosts) involved, a Super Saiyan should not be stronger than a Super Saiyan 2. This hierarchy is consistent throughout the series, and for Cabba to suddenly break this mold without any special circumstances would undermine the established transformation scale.

[QuakingStar]

Ok, I don't get what people are doing here.. are we conflating the DBS Manga and Anime or just using the canon(Manga) for Cabba or just the anime? If we are using the anime the Copy Vegeta stuff is complete filler anyway and Godlike Saiyan doesn't exist. The idea of base Goku and Base Vegeta being as strong as or stronger than when Goku was a SSG was definitely retconned. Future Trunks was about equal in base and in the same forms. I don't think anything indicated base Vegeta had actually gotten 10x stronger than base Vegeta from right after Pure Boos defeat but we do know he got stronger. Now GT Goku alone had gotten so stronger compared to his base self from Z that his base form casually thrashed SPCell and Frieza at the same time and he only felt he needed SS to beat a Kid Boo level enemy in Rild. He gets far stronger than even that all the way to the Shadow Dragon Saga. GT is inconsistent and wonky as hell that's for sure.

There's no filler in DBS.

Also, we have other examples of base Goku being very strong. Like him being also to fight a stronger Boo:



Or him being able to push back Piccolo's charged explosive wave:

All of these examples you just used are right before the ToP and at this point Goku had already been training on and off with Whis, Vegeta and in the HTC leading to this. Goku's base being stronger than Piccolo just puts Goku's base above SS2 Gohan level before he awakened his Ultimate State again and trained further. Goku and Vegeta both had become much stronger than they were in the U6 and U7 tournament Saga while there is no indication that Cabba himself had. Only Hit and Frost were noted to have gotten stronger, noticeably.

In the anime it was made abundantly clear by Vegeta and Black that Vegeta had a massive gain in power when he returned to the past and beat the dogshit out of Black, Vegeta had entered the Time Chamber after that as well.

[ZombieVito]

Ok, I don't get what people are doing here.. are we conflating the DBS Manga and Anime or just using the canon(Manga) for Cabba or just the anime? If we are using the anime the Copy Vegeta stuff is complete filler anyway and Godlike Saiyan doesn't exist. The idea of base Goku and Base Vegeta being as strong as or stronger than when Goku was a SSG was definitely retconned. Future Trunks was about equal in base and in the same forms. I don't think anything indicated base Vegeta had actually gotten 10x stronger than base Vegeta from right after Pure Boos defeat but we do know he got stronger. Now GT Goku alone had gotten so stronger compared to his base self from Z that his base form casually thrashed SPCell and Frieza at the same time and he only felt he needed SS to beat a Kid Boo level enemy in Rild. He gets far stronger than even that all the way to the Shadow Dragon Saga. GT is inconsistent and wonky as hell that's for sure.

There's no filler in DBS.

Also, we have other examples of base Goku being very strong. Like him being also to fight a stronger Boo:



Or him being able to push back Piccolo's charged explosive wave:

All of these examples you just used are right before the ToP and at this point Goku had already been training on and off with Whis, Vegeta and in the HTC leading to this. Goku's base being stronger than Piccolo just puts Goku's base above SS2 Gohan level before he awakened his Ultimate State again and trained further. Goku and Vegeta both had become much stronger than they were in the U6 and U7 tournament Saga while there is no indication that Cabba himself had. Only Hit and Frost were noted to have gotten stronger, noticeably.

In the anime it was made abundantly clear by Vegeta and Black that Vegeta had a massive gain in power when he returned to the past and beat the dogshit out of Black, Vegeta had entered the Time Chamber after that as well.

Piccolo got stronger between episodes 88 and 90 but regardless of that, base Goku being stronger than this Piccolo already puts him WAY over just being a mere 10 times stronger than his base power from when he killed Pure Boo.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The major sticking points are Piccolo and Freeza, in my opinion.

They're both shown as comparable to Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan's base/Super Saiyan forms in one way or another, so figuring out how strong they are would help narrow down others by proxy.

[QuakingStar]

The major sticking points are Piccolo and Freeza, in my opinion.

They're both shown as comparable to Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan's base/Super Saiyan forms in one way or another, so figuring out how strong they are would help narrow down others by proxy.

The issue is after the U6 and U7 tournament and by the time of the ToP Goku and Vegeta, and Piccolo, and even Gohan got vastly stronger. Nothing indicates that Cabba made any vast improvements at all. I do think he got stronger but a lot as he had no special ways of training and no special trainers.

[ZombieVito]

The major sticking points are Piccolo and Freeza, in my opinion.

They're both shown as comparable to Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan's base/Super Saiyan forms in one way or another, so figuring out how strong they are would help narrow down others by proxy.

Nothing indicates that Cabba made any vast improvements at all. I do think he got stronger but a lot as he had no special ways of training and no special trainers.

That has never mattered in DB.

Frost went from being trashed by SS Goku to being able to trade blows with (A far stronger) SS Vegeta by just being on the run for a few months.

Hell, Freeza made up all the power Goku and Vegeta gained between RoF and the ToP arc by just meditating.

[QuakingStar]

The major sticking points are Piccolo and Freeza, in my opinion.

They're both shown as comparable to Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan's base/Super Saiyan forms in one way or another, so figuring out how strong they are would help narrow down others by proxy.

Nothing indicates that Cabba made any vast improvements at all. I do think he got stronger but a lot as he had no special ways of training and no special trainers.

That has never mattered in DB.

Frost went from being trashed by SS Goku to being able to trade blows with (A far stronger) SS Vegeta by just being on the run for a few months.

Hell, Freeza made up all the power Goku and Vegeta gained between RoF and the ToP arc by just meditating.

That's Frieza and Frost. Two gifted mutants among their species. Power gains do happen sure, but Vegeta went from getting his gut kicked in by base Goku Black while using SSB to overpowering SSRose Goku Black, he then got even stronger than that for the ToP. That's a big leap. Cabba didn't show anything to say he grew to a large degree.

[ankokudaishogun]

Cabba mastered Super Saiyan by ToP in both anime and manga.
It is a MASSIVE increase in power


Also Gotenks is actually pretty weak. Vegetto's SS schooled Buuhan, Gotenk's got punked by regular Evil Buu.
Nothing suggests his SS3 in Buu Saga was much stronger than Goku's, if stronger at all.
And as far as we know, Goten and Trunks mostly played, not trained after that.

Copy-Vegeta defeating him in base would at best suggest Vegeta's base was about Buu-Saga SS3.
Which is the same level of power of Adult GT Goku.
Which against fits with the other Super\Xeno comparisons.

[TheSaiyanGod]

No? He has the gel aura still and Vegeta implies Goku's mastery of the form was unattainable.

Yes. It's a burst so it makes sense it has an aura still for the instant he activates it.

Still not supposed to be short bursts of CSSB tho. Vegeta states that CSSB was beyond what he could do, so his God-Blue switch strategy was better than regular Blue but still not enough to allow him to acess 100% of the power of the form

Basically, SSB's full power was only achieved by sealing its overflowing power. Aside from that, other attempts to improve the form merely allowed them to get closer to use its full power (Goku Vs Hit and Vegeta Vs Black), but still not quite there

[QuakingStar]

Cabba mastered Super Saiyan by ToP in both anime and manga.
It is a MASSIVE increase in power


Also Gotenks is actually pretty weak. Vegetto's SS schooled Buuhan, Gotenk's got punked by regular Evil Buu.
Nothing suggests his SS3 in Buu Saga was much stronger than Goku's, if stronger at all.
And as far as we know, Goten and Trunks mostly played, not trained after that.

Copy-Vegeta defeating him in base would at best suggest Vegeta's base was about Buu-Saga SS3.
Which is the same level of power of Adult GT Goku.
Which against fits with the other Super\Xeno comparisons.

Yes, but Vegeta by the Saga that Copy Vegeta apears in is vastly stronger than the U6 v U7 Vegeta as well. U6 v U7 Vegeta is probably Fat Buu level in base at best and to add to this, Fat Buu didn't get stronger until the ToP which to further add it was never stated how much stronger he got, he could have went to Skinny Evil Buu's level or power or even Super Buu's level of power since he got buff like Super Buu. Oh, and Piccolo is only above SS2 Gohan level in the ToP, SS2 Gohan here had not trained since the FT Arc and Piccolo had to bring Senzu Beans to get him back into fighting shape.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It’s true that Dragon Ball often leaves these lines open to interpretation, but I don’t think, in this case, it necessarily means Trunks surpassed Gohan by a large margin either, but rather that he had grown significantly since his last major appearance. That said, a “2x stronger” estimation seems more reasonable than an extreme power jump like 10x, but even this is speculative. It’s doubtful that Cabba or Trunks are twice as powerful as Gohan from the Cell Games for reasons mainly revolving around the mechanics of the Super Saiyan transformations.

In Dragon Ball Super, Cabba’s Super Saiyan form is an important milestone for him but not game-changing. He struggles against Vegeta in his base form, and there is no indication that his SS form is somehow superior to the SS2 transformation. If Cabba’s SS form were meant to be stronger than SS2 Gohan from the Cell Games, the show or manga would have likely highlighted this fact more explicitly, as Dragon Ball tends to directly mention significant power leaps. SS2 is objectively stronger than SS1, and unless there is some special condition (like fusion or godly powers or rage boosts) involved, a Super Saiyan should not be stronger than a Super Saiyan 2. This hierarchy is consistent throughout the series, and for Cabba to suddenly break this mold without any special circumstances would undermine the established transformation scale.

I thought they could be that strong exactly because of SSJ mechanics. The series considers the difference between SSJ and SSJ2 negligible after the Cell Saga, specially in Super with Zeno not even noticing a difference.

Other than comparing Trunks and Gohan, Super has never bothered to compare new characters with old ones. The writers aren't concerned with these comparisons in the slightiest, this is just trying way too hard to invalidate an educated guess.