Unpopular DB opinions

[Kid Buu]

Yajirobe was able to give Goku a good fight, but later Cymbal was able to last against Yajirobe a lot easier than Tambourine lasted against Goku, despite Tambourine being said to be many times stronger than Cymbal. Therefore, I'm thinking Toriyama retconned Yajirobe's initial strength. Maybe the food Goku ate had a delayed reaction, and he only actually fully healed after his fight with Yajirobe?

[DBZAOTA482]

Goku didn't try hard at all. He wasn't winded, he wasn't fazed, he was as calm as a cucumber. I'm not sure what your point is regarding the proposal, Goku was in absolutely no danger of losing that match.

Chi-Chi didn't really break a sweat either. In fact, she was having a conversation with him while attacking him and still fought expertly despite being mad as hell. Rosh hinted at her being a formidable opponent and she was even confident in beating him. I wouldn't say Goku was perfectly calm either... she nearly surprised him with some of her attacks and had him somewhat on the defensive, not to mention there's the anxiety of trying to figure out her apparently bizarre behavior.

Chi-Chi promises to tell Goku her name if he beats her, he gets excited (which she doesn't like), and tells her to brace herself. My point is she shouldn't be faulted for not seeing the shockwave coming considering neither Krillin, Yamcha, or Roshi could. After all, this is Goku got back from 3 years of training with Kami and learned a bunch of new things. She was caught completely by surprise (and the move itself was hinted to be quite powerful).

Yes, but Tao Pai Pai the world's greatest assassin. We have zero clue how strong Chichi is in comparison.

Tao's status is hardly relevant at this point considering all the main cast far outstripped his organic self. Both were shown as strong contender for the 23rd Budokai but weren't any real threat to Goku or Tien. Chi-Chi fared better against Goku (who was holding back a lot at the time) than Tao did against Tien (who wasn't aside from speed)... but Tao edges out since he was treated as a bigger deal and he has those weapons.

Him taking Chiaotzu out like that from an unseen attack simply showed that Chiaotzu would be the weak link of the Z-Warriors from then on.

Does it take a lot of skill to cut him clean in half? That was brute force.

Yajirobe toyed with Cymbal at first to get a gauge on his strength. When he got serious he then ran at him and expertly dodging his lightning (which he had trouble doing earlier) showing great speed, skill, and dexterity that impressed Goku.

DBZ Yajirobe cut off Vegeta's tail and sliced the back of Vegeta's armor.

Exactly.

[ABED]

In comparison to Goku, Chichi's skills are in no way impressive. I doubt she could defeat Tenshinhan and even he couldn't get Goku to breathe heavy in their second fight. I'm not faulting her, but she wasn't nerfed. Goku was the greatest fighter in the world, she didn't have a chance in hell of winning. Her only trainer was her father who wasn't even the star pupil. Goku trained with Roshi directly, trained with Karin, trained with Kami and Popo, killed Piccolo Daimao when no one else could. It's hard to gauge exactly how strong she is because she went up against the best and as I said, she didn't do very well against him. Goku wasn't fighting serious. Being surprised by her is no indication that she did well. If Goku is a world champion baseball player, she'd be playing high school baseball by comparison. Even that might be too generous. It's not the first time Goku won with a surprising attack. Remember how he knocked Kuririn out of the ring in the 22nd TB? Only a few saw the skill it took for Goku to do what he did.

Both were shown as strong contender for the 23rd Budokai but weren't any real threat to Goku or Tenshinhan. Chi-Chi fared better against Goku (who was holding back a lot at the time) than Tao did against Tenshinhan (who wasn't aside from speed)... but Tao edges out since he was treated as a bigger deal and he has those weapons.

Yes, Goku and Tenshinhan! Tenshinhan was never a slouch. She didn't fare better. She lasted longer, but that's because Goku didn't want to hurt her. Goku held back a lot more than Tenshinhan did. It took Goku climbing up Karin Tower to defeat one of the strongest fighters in the world. Where would she have gotten such skill and power?

Yajirobe toyed with Cymbal at first to get a gauge on his strength. When he got serious he then ran at him and expertly dodging his lightning (which he had trouble doing earlier) showing great speed, skill, and dexterity that impressed Goku.

Skilled yes, but skilled swordsman? None of this shows that he's a skilled swordsman.

Exactly.

Exactly what? Yajirobe was always the guy to that point helped out when shit hit the fan, EXCEPT when he's going up against a fight he thinks he can defeat. He knew he had no chance against Piccolo and only helped out after Piccolo left or when Piccolo was dead.

[DBZAOTA482]

In comparison to Goku, Chichi's skills are in no way impressive. I doubt she could defeat Tenshinhan and even he couldn't get Goku to breathe heavy in their second fight. I'm not faulting her, but she wasn't nerfed. Goku was the greatest fighter in the world, she didn't have a chance in hell of winning. Her only trainer was her father who wasn't even the star pupil. Goku trained with Roshi directly, trained with Karin, trained with Kami and Popo, killed Piccolo Daimao when no one else could. It's hard to gauge exactly how strong she is because she went up against the best and as I said, she didn't do very well against him. Goku wasn't fighting serious. Being surprised by her is no indication that she did well. If Goku is a world champion baseball player, she'd be playing high school baseball by comparison. Even that might be too generous. It's not the first time Goku won with a surprising attack. Remember how he knocked Kuririn out of the ring in the 22nd TB? Only a few saw the skill it took for Goku to do what he did.

I said nothing suggesting she could take on Tien... I've already mentioned he suppressed a lot more power against her (and King Chappa) than he was against Tien given his strength increase wasn't noted till then, and I don't mean surprised in that sense... I mean in that she was fast and strong enough to where he could barely dodge some of her attacks meaning he had to keep on his toes... in fact, he barely dodged her initial attack despite her being like 25 feet away from him. Also, Roshi didn't really "train" his students... he just taught them basic martial arts (but Goku, Krillin, and Yamcha already had the basics down) and made them do harsh and unusual labor with their barehands while wearing turtle shells then basic education.... which they will integrate into their own training. Gyumao went through the same training and given what Roshi says in regards to her skill level, she likely did training of her own in addition to the Turtle Hermit training.

The Krillin thing was a more pure example of Krillin simply being no match for Goku's true match-level since it was Goku who blitzed him and Krillin was the offensive the whole time plus he was clearly outclassed beforehand. The shockwave move itself Goku used against her was suggested to be quite powerful (he also used against Piccolo while he was up in the air and it managed stun even him) AND it was something Kami taught him so there was no way of anticipating it (even Piccolo didn't expect that he knew such a technique of his clan). Had they not made that agreement and Goku fight back from the start... the fight I think would possibly last much longer till Goku gets slightly serious like his fight with Krillin in the 22nd Budokai.

Yes, Goku and Tenshinhan! Tenshinhan was never a slouch. She didn't fare better. She lasted longer, but that's because Goku didn't want to hurt her. Goku held back a lot more than Tenshinhan did. It took Goku climbing up Karin Tower to defeat one of the strongest fighters in the world. Where would she have gotten such skill and power?

Tien didn't wanna hurt Tao before he used those weapons (he even forgave him for what he did to Chiaotzu) and still dodged his attacks with much more calmness and ease. Chi-Chi actually had Goku on the defensive... even forced him to escape 50+ meters into the air (which she matched and still fought him in mid-air). There's no reason for him to be having that kind of trouble if she's so piss-weak compared to him even if you take his confusion into consideration. She was doing much better to the point where Roshi outright praised her skill level (along with mentioning her style resembling his) upon witnessing her abilities in action.

7 years of extra-hard training on top of natural talent (she was naturally strong and skilled at melee combat given her feats against a full-grown T-rex and Yamcha as a kid).

Skilled yes, but skilled swordsman? None of this shows that he's a skilled swordsman.

At any rate, he showed way more skill there than he did for the entirety of DBZ. I mean, he RAN clutching the sword in it's holder... dodged the lightning expertly.. then blitzed and slice n' dice.

Exactly what? Yajirobe was always the guy to that point helped out when shit hit the fan, EXCEPT when he's going up against a fight he thinks he can defeat. He knew he had no chance against Piccolo and only helped out after Piccolo left or when Piccolo was dead.

Yajirobe knows of Piccolo Daimao's legendary powers. He was wise not to fight him... whereas with the Saiyans he simply did not try... he didn't want to train nor did he take it nearly as seriously as the others (one panel of her training showed him just sitting and praying). If DBZ Yajirobe was around for Daimao, he'd probably be like "fuck no, I want nothin' to do with this! I'd get killed!". He didn't even bother to got to Namek with Krillin and Bulma so they can revive everyone who died even when there was no guaranteed danger.

Another thing I picked up on... Yajirobe was willing to participate at the 23rd Budokai despite knowing the odds were against him.

[rereboy]

Gohan discovers Cell in the main timeline.
Gohan watches Cell beat to near death his dear master Piccolo from atop Kami's lookout.
Gohan knows Cell is part of the larger android problem that leads to a horrible future, one where he dies.

What other "connection" do Cell-Gohan need? Should Cell have murdered Chi-chi and burned the world's libraries? Is all that necessary for a good Dragon Ball story?

It doesn't "need" more than that but it would definitely be a lot better if it was more than that shallow (and it wouldn't be necessary for the connection/relevance to be that extreme). Even Goku, when he arrives to save the day in the Saiyan and Namek saga despite being away for most of the fight, has a more rich connection/relevance regarding the villains (due to him being a saiyan and the whole history behind it) which makes the catharsis of him surpassing and beating those villains (Vegeta, Freeza) much more fulfilling. Even regarding Cell, Goku has a much more rich connection/relevance than Gohan due to the history of the RR army and the fact that Cell has his cells and the cells of his former enemies.

But that's just one of the problems of the Cell saga and by itself it wouldn't even be a big issue. It's all the things combined that make the Cell saga look worse.

[ABED]

The Krillin thing was a more pure example of Krillin simply being no match for Goku's true match-level since it was Goku who blitzed him and Krillin was the offensive the whole time plus he was clearly outclassed beforehand.

Nothing you wrote doesn't apply to Chichi, she never could've won it even on her best day.

She was doing much better to the point where Roshi outright praised her skill level (along with mentioning her style resembling his) upon witnessing her abilities in action.

She was strong, but not in comparison to Goku. I think you are looking to much into everything. Tenshinhan's fight was played for drama, Goku's fight was played for laughs. And once again, Goku didn't use much energy to defeat Tenshinhan. There's no way in hell Chichi ever stood a chance.

Whereas with the Saiyans he simply did not try... he didn't want to train nor did he take it nearly as seriously as the others

He didn't try against Piccolo either.

If DBZ Yajirobe was around for Daimao, he'd probably be like "fuck no, I want nothin' to do with this! I'd get killed!". He didn't even bother to got to Namek with Krillin and Bulma so they can revive everyone who died even when there was no guaranteed danger.

He WAS around for Daimao and he did basically say that he wanted nothing to do with him, he would die. I do agree that I wish he would've gone to Namek.

Another thing I picked up on... Yajirobe was willing to participate at the 23rd Budokai despite knowing the odds were against him

It's a tournament with prize money. He didn't think he would get killed because of tournament rules and even if he didn't win, he still might get prize money for second.

[LuckyCat]

Gohan discovers Cell in the main timeline.
Gohan watches Cell beat to near death his dear master Piccolo from atop Kami's lookout.
Gohan knows Cell is part of the larger android problem that leads to a horrible future, one where he dies.

What other "connection" do Cell-Gohan need? Should Cell have murdered Chi-chi and burned the world's libraries? Is all that necessary for a good Dragon Ball story?

It doesn't "need" more than that but it would definitely be a lot better if it was more than that shallow (and it wouldn't be necessary for the connection/relevance to be that extreme). Even Goku, when he arrives to save the day in the Saiyan and Namek saga despite being away for most of the fight, has a more rich connection/relevance regarding the villains (due to him being a saiyan and the whole history behind it) which makes the catharsis of him surpassing and beating those villains (Vegeta, Freeza) much more fulfilling. Even regarding Cell, Goku has a much more rich connection/relevance than Gohan due to the history of the RR army and the fact that Cell has his cells and the cells of his former enemies.

But that's just one of the problems of the Cell saga and by itself it wouldn't even be a big issue. It's all the things combined that make the Cell saga look worse.

I can see what you mean by Gohan not having enough of a personal connection to Cell. I always thought of connection played out as a rivalry, not simply Cell versus Gohan, but Cell versus Gohan and Goku. I'll give some examples from the Cell arc:

Vol. 35. CH. 415. Context: Goku urging Gohan to use a Kamehameha with one arm.
Goku: ”最後に見せてくれよ、オラたち二人で作った力を・・・” (Show me one last time, the power we created together...)

Vol. 35. CH. 417. Context: Vegeta lamenting Goku's death and Gohan/Goku surpassing him and Trunks.
Vegeta: "か・・完全にやられた…あいつら親子に…」（I've been utterly defeated, by that father and son...)
「く…くそ…カカロットめ…！！…あんな死に方しやがって…」(Damn you, Kakkarot! How could you let yourself die that way?)
「オレはもう…闘わん…」(I will compete no more...)

These lines show that the Cell fight was a father and son team effort. Cell fought not only Gohan, but Goku who plotted out the whole thing and trained and coached Gohan all the way through. This is why I say you can't discount the arc just for Gohan's lack of connection to Cell, when Goku was very much part of that same rivalry. Maybe that team rivalry connection doesn't work for you, I don't know. But, I think it's pretty potent material for a manga directed at growing boys.

[DBZAOTA482]

Nothing you wrote doesn't apply to Chichi, she never could've won it even on her best day.

No they don't, circumstantially. Everything in suggestion regarding to how Goku defeated Krillin was to show how much stronger he's become. Tien notes that Goku was simply moving too fast for Krillin to keep up prior to the chopping and then Muten Roshi even starts to believe his position had already disappeared. The shockwave attack Goku used against Chi-Chi was suggested to be a very powerful (we clearly see him charging up his fist before doing it)...Roshi tried to make sense of it and gave a description that made it out to be a really powerful attack... like a lot better than his best shot at his current state and it takes a considerable amount of force to knock someone off their feet then spend them flying at high speed into the stadium wall... especially if said someone can jump extremely high into the air with ease, and it was specifically something Kami taught him so no one could anticipate it especially at a 20 feet distance (between Goku and Chi-Chi)... not even Piccolo could (but he recognized the technique) so it doesn't go against was previously established of her strength. Had Goku not agreed to "propose" and fought back from the start... the fight likely would last much longer.

The Goku-Krillin thing demonstrated Goku's strength/skill. The Goku/Chi-Chi thing demonstrated Goku's technique.

She was strong, but not in comparison to Goku. I think you are looking to much into everything. Tenshinhan's fight was played for drama, Goku's fight was played for laughs. And once again, Goku didn't use much energy to defeat Tenshinhan. There's no way in hell Chichi ever stood a chance.

Umm... no.

I know when DB is trying to be funny and when it's being serious. There was no humor when she fought Goku... sure, the payoff may be comedic but the actual fighting and her feats (casually jumping 50+ meters straight into the air during mid-action and fighting at great speed while hovering in mid-air without bukujutsu mainly) was there to create hype for her by showing her as a strong competitor and I guess to show some of the fruits of Goku's training with Kami.... it's no more comedic than Yamcha vs. Shen (Shen's general antics and Yamcha bashing his nuts). The fact that Muten Roshi no less was stunned/at disbelief at her skill level in addition of her style resembling his Turtle Hermit style and implications surrounding her entry into the 23rd TB (and making it to her fight with Goku) already says enough. That "gag fight" argument is annoying as hell, honestly. What's the humor in it anyways? "Oh look finally a legit female fighter that can compete with the boys... she has legit superhuman feats and statements lol no jk she sucks!".

Before Goku took off his weights, Tien actually fought on par with him (he still used up more energy but that's only because Goku was less wasteful in his movement) even blitzing him once unleashing his true speed and that Goku was far stronger than the one (who kept the weights on the entire time) Chi-Chi fought (who I'd wager to be around Old Piccolo Daimao's level). Again, I'm only speaking in regards to the Goku she fought and it's not even guaranteed she could win... just a possibly strength-wise. Dunno for sure how she would fair skill-wise.

Both did pretty well under the circumstances if you ask me.

He didn't try against Piccolo either.

He couldn't do much against him even if he tried and he knew this.

He WAS around for Daimao and he did basically say that he wanted nothing to do with him, he would die. I do agree that I wish he would've gone to Namek.

True, but it still doesn't change the fact Toriyama chose to do nothing with Yajirobe (now that Krillin is back) and pushed him into the background as mainly comic relief when he could be a lot more especially with his badass introduction.

It's a tournament with prize money. He didn't think he would get killed because of tournament rules and even if he didn't win, he still might get prize money for second.

Nothing suggesting the prize money was relevant to him. He probably went there for fun.

[ABED]

The Goku-Krillin thing demonstrated Goku's strength/skill. The Goku/Chi-Chi thing demonstrated Goku's technique.

Kuririn's defeat also showed speed and last I checked, is also a skill, as is technique.

Roshi tried to make sense of it and gave a description that made it out to be a really powerful attack

Yes, it was powerful, but you have taken this one statement and stretched it beyond it's intended meaning. It's strong, but in comparison to Goku's vast strength at that point, it's nothing. And it's ridiculous to point to the time he used against Piccolo because of course Goku would increase the strength of the maneuver against his greatest opponent. If Tenshinhan didn't have a shot of winning, Chichi didn't either. The fight only lasted as long as it did because Goku allowed it.

I guess to show some of the fruits of Goku's training with Kami

Not really, that was the next two fights. You know, the ones where he doesn't break a sweat against the man who defeated him the last time, and the son of the being whom he just barely defeated three years prior. I didn't say the fight was MORE comedic than Shen vs. Yamcha, just that it was in fact comedic. All Roshi's musings say is that he was surprised that a fighter he didn't know was as strong as she was and was using techniques from his style of fighting. Where's the humor? The whole fight was Goku not understanding why she was so mad at him, then there's the part where they take time out for Goku to ask Kuririn what marriage is. Please don't make this a sexist thing, that's your implication. It has nothing to do with her being female. She did well in the prelims, but didn't do that well against Goku. I didn't say she sucks, please don't put words in my mouth. She'd be great in comparison to anyone who wasn't part of the DB gang, but she's not in their league. How could she? Whom did she train with? In the manga, the fight only lasts 8 pages, and most of that is talking.

Tenshinhan actually fought on par with him

That point is arguable and those weights are a big handicap that Goku put on himself. Even with the weights on, Goku wasn't breathing heavy, whereas Tenshinhan was. Goku just took off the weights to increase his speed.

Both did pretty well under the circumstances if you ask me.

They did fine, nothing to be ashamed of, but not nearly as well as you make it out to be. Goku had them outclassed in every way. He was stronger, faster, smarter, and had far more stamina. In the fight against Piccolo, Goku let off some huge blasts, but his energy wasn't as affected nearly as much as it would've in the past. Roshi makes note of that. Goku had become the greatest fighter in the world.

He couldn't do much against him even if he tried and he knew this.

Yes, and he knew the same against Vegeta who was exponentially stronger than Daimao.

Nothing suggesting the prize money was relevant to him. He probably went there for fun.

Yeah, not to fight to save the world. It was fun because it was a tournament with rules, including no killing.

[Kuririn Fan]

I prefer We Gotta Power to Cha-La Head-Cha-La.

[Basaku]

I prefer We Gotta Power to Cha-La Head-Cha-La.

Same. Is that such an unpopular opinion?

[fadeddreams5]

People prefer Cha La?

[Doctor.]

Never found someone who thinks Cha-la is the best Dragon Ball opening. I don't know how it's the most iconic opening in the franchise either. I like it, but it's not even close to being my favorite.

[ekrolo2]

I'd go so far as to say Cha-La is my least favorite of them all, its not bad but Fight it Out (yes I like it now), Chozetsu (I like that one better too now), Kuu Zen Tsu Go, We Gotta Power, Dan Dan, and especially Dragon Soul are all a LOT better than Cha-La imo.

[DBZAOTA482]

Kuririn's defeat also showed speed and last I checked, is also a skill, as is technique.

I counted strength and speed as the same thing, and there's a distinction between skill and technique.

Yes, it was powerful, but you have taken this one statement and stretched it beyond it's intended meaning. It's strong, but in comparison to Goku's vast strength at that point, it's nothing. And it's ridiculous to point to the time he used against Piccolo because of course Goku would increase the strength of the maneuver against his greatest opponent. If Tenshinhan didn't have a shot of winning, Chichi didn't either. The fight only lasted as long as it did because Goku allowed it.

I said nothing suggesting she was even close to taking on Goku at his strongest during the 23rd Budokai (only the Goku she fought and that's even a big maybe)... just that the technique itself was really effective (and that he put a considerable amount of force behind it) and was something Kami taught him (Piccolo says such). Besides that... pretty much everyone including Krillin and Yamcha were stunned at it's sheer power so no I don't think I'm looking too much into it.

Not really, that was the next two fights. You know, the ones where he doesn't break a sweat against the man who defeated him the last time, and the son of the being whom he just barely defeated three years prior. I didn't say the fight was MORE comedic than Shen vs. Yamcha, just that it was in fact comedic. All Roshi's musings say is that he was surprised that a fighter he didn't know was as strong as she was and was using techniques from his style of fighting. Where's the humor? The whole fight was Goku not understanding why she was so mad at him, then there's the part where they take time out for Goku to ask Kuririn what marriage is. Please don't make this a sexist thing, that's your implication. It has nothing to do with her being female. She did well in the prelims, but didn't do that well against Goku. I didn't say she sucks, please don't put words in my mouth. She'd be great in comparison to anyone who wasn't part of the DB gang, but she's not in their league. How could she? Whom did she train with? In the manga, the fight only lasts 8 pages, and most of that is talking.

His next two fights showed how much stronger and more skilled Goku has become. The way Goku defeated Chi-Chi was to show that he now knows how to create shockwaves with the motion of his body... as result of his training with Kami (Piccolo even takes note of it being a technique his clan uses). I also disagree on the notion of Yamcha vs. Shen (Kami) being comical... it actually taught Yamcha a valuable lesson to not "Judge a book by it's cover" as well as showing how much Yamcha has improved along with showing how strong Shen (Kami) was proving he wasn't just some middle-aged nerd who got lucky.

Muten Roshi's words were a fairly standard way to create hype for her by basically saying she's an incredibly powerful and skilled fighter given it's context... his statement regarding her abilities were basically the same he used to hype up the masked fighter (who was Grandpa Gohan in disguise). It's also usually a big deal for Roshi to acknowledge someone's skill level and the fact he mentions it in direct connection to her style resembling his (which he didn't even do for the masked fighter) says quite a bit added with his apparent shock/disbelief in how he says it (which can be plainly seen on his face).

Besides, the Z-Warriors didn't react as strongly to her and they were surprised (or at least Krillin was).

I'm not making implications of you being sexist... just disagreeing with you suggesting the idea of Toriyama wrote that fight in to empathize how much weaker she is to Goku to the point of ridicule rather than intent to show her as a serious competitor.... so basically you are saying she sucks. I don't see how Goku being merely puzzled at her anger (and apparently strange behavior) as he barely manages to avoid her attacks while she's clearly demonstrating some ridiculous fighting abilities is meant to be funny (it's not like Goku was looking somewhere else and wasn't focusing on the fight as well as why she was mad at him)... and the marriage thing that's what I mean with the payoff being comedic (though not a full-blown gag)... virtually all of the humor came from that. Piccolo took time to have a conversation with Shen (wanting to know who he is) when he fought him and most of their fight was talking... that doesn't make it any less serious. The gag argument just seems like a blatant attempt at downplaying her and I can't respect that. I mean, do you realize how bad it is? I can't even get away from some people who think Videl (of all people) can beat just because Goku didn't lay a finger on her.

I never said she was as strong (or even close to) as Goku, Krillin, Yamcha, and Tien... how many times do I have to say that?! Just the fact she was good enough to catch their attention and the fact she got so strong in such amount of time with just the Turtle Hermit training under her belt shows she can become a fairly strong human Z-Warrior (or at least more relevant than Chiaotzu) under the right circumstances.

Yajirobe is even wilder case once he fought on par with 22nd Budokai Goku's match-level (who destroyed Krillin) without any formal training from masters.

That point is arguable and those weights are a big handicap that Goku put on himself. Even with the weights on, Goku wasn't breathing heavy, whereas Tenshinhan was. Goku just took off the weights to increase his speed.

He did fight on par. Tien was only breathing heavily (while Goku wasn't) was because Goku learned how to fight without making unnecessary movement due to his training with Mr. Popo and his speed with weights was said to be the same as when he fought Piccolo Daimao (he was superior in every other way from then) which Tien considered slow then one-upped with his true speed. Goku had to take off his weights in order to keep up (he also became stronger). Even with his weights off, Tien managed to nail him with an attack when he used his Shishin no Ken technique.

They did fine, nothing to be ashamed of, but not nearly as well as you make it out to be. Goku had them outclassed in every way. He was stronger, faster, smarter, and had far more stamina. In the fight against Piccolo, Goku let off some huge blasts, but his energy wasn't as affected nearly as much as it would've in the past. Roshi makes note of that. Goku had become the greatest fighter in the world.

Goku was clearly fighting at a much higher (less suppressed) level against Piccolo than he did against Chi-Chi and Tien. The fact that they held their own against Goku... even if he was holding back... is what's notable... because Goku is still insanely strong regardless. The Goku that Chi-Chi fought was the same one who KO'd a powered-up King Chappa, a guy Jackie Chun and Yamcha were actually worried about him facing at the 22nd Budokai, just by tapping his neck (which Krillin, Yamcha, and Tien all calmly stated didn't have his true strength put into it).

Yes, and he knew the same against Vegeta who was exponentially stronger than Daimao.

Did he really know... or just he just wanna avoid trouble altogether?

[Hellspawn28]

People are really getting upset over Monaka. He may not be as badass looking as fans hope for, but he could surprise us. Look back on other characters with silly designs that end up being cool or transform into something awesome.

[Doctor.]

People are really getting upset over Monaka. He may not be as badass looking as fans hope for, but he could surprise us. Look back on other characters with silly designs that end up being cool or transform into something awesome.

I don't think he will. I think Toriyama is abusing this trope to the point it has become predictable, literally everyone here on this forum was calling it: that the design would be something silly, and just another version of the "don't judge a book by its cover" trope. Everyone who knows the slightest bit about Toriyama was expecting this.

And Toriyama isn't even executing the trope as well anymore. Freeza's final form, perfect Cell and kid Boo were all small and weak-looking compared to their previous forms, but they were also imposing and eerie-looking despite their size. Vegeta as well, compared to Nappa. There's nothing special, there's nothing remarkable about Monaca except his nipples. The design is bland and forgettable.

At this point, the big, bulky muscle man would be the unpredictable choice.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

People are really getting upset over Monaka. He may not be as badass looking as fans hope for, but he could surprise us. Look back on other characters with silly designs that end up being cool or transform into something awesome.

Sometimes surprises me how fans forget that drawing muscular Rambo full testoterone Broly like characters is not Toriyama´s style, wacky things is Toriyama style.

[fadeddreams5]

There's nothing special, there's nothing remarkable about Monaca except his nipples.

Glad you like them.

[LightBing]

People are really getting upset over Monaka. He may not be as badass looking as fans hope for, but he could surprise us. Look back on other characters with silly designs that end up being cool or transform into something awesome.

I don't think he will. I think Toriyama is abusing this trope to the point it has become predictable, literally everyone here on this forum was calling it: that the design would be something silly, and just another version of the "don't judge a book by its cover" trope. Everyone who knows the slightest bit about Toriyama was expecting this.

And Toriyama isn't even executing the trope as well anymore. Freeza's final form, perfect Cell and kid Boo were all small and weak-looking compared to their previous forms, but they were also imposing and eerie-looking despite their size. Vegeta as well, compared to Nappa. There's nothing special, there's nothing remarkable about Monaca except his nipples. The design is bland and forgettable.

At this point, the big, bulky muscle man would be the unpredictable choice.

Is he really abusing the trope? If he's done it for so many years and everybody was expecting it, maybe it's not intended to be a device. It's just his preference.
Vegeta doubts Monaca strength based on his looks, with Piccolo interjecting "it's our trend to underestimate guys like him". The author seems fully aware of it. Those big nipples are the joke, not his "weak aspect".

Whis says Monaca is shy and kind, giving trouble to Beerus when he "bares his fangs". He's not supposed to be imposing, the same way - I predict - Goku looks harmless until he get's serious.

I'm really starting to think, evaluating only the designs is wrong. At least we shouldn't jump the gun on assumptions, without knowing the personality of the characters to have a clear picture.