"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[UpFromTheSkies]

So I thought about it. Reread the chapter (again) and went out of my way to reread Minus...and I'll concede(only a bit).

It's clear that there's a schism between how the Saiyans were interepreted in Z, and how they're interpreted post-Minus. Basically, Saiyans are now just a group of people in which genocide is just a job. Whereas Z would depict them as monsters, it's clear going forward that Saiyans are being depicted as more complex and more human. I don't think that's inherently bad, and it at least provides a bit more context as to why Bardock is a bit more chill here. I still don't agree with everything here, and I particularly don't like how they're trying to connect everyone within this flashback, but I feel a little bit better about it.

I'm not discounting the arc yet, but I'm definitely a bit more wary.

The Saiyans were made out as monsters in Z because that was their reputation. As their prince, Vegeta - the true Saiyan we've seen the most of - perhaps most fits the Saiyan stereotype. In the Minus/Super era, we get to see things from the Saiyan homeland. They're not one-dimensional monsters. They are complicit, or outright guilty, of heinous crimes.

They certainly can be one dimensional monsters, nothing in Super or Minus changed that. But because of Vegetas development in Z, and revelations about the Saiayns made in Super and Minus, we know they are very capable of developing empathy, typically only towards their immediate kin, but in Vegetas case, towards all innocent life.

[TKA]

To be fair, the fiction involving the actual story and the characters is far more important and interesting than the propagandistic meta-fiction dreamed up by sad bitter bourgeoise liberals in a mainstream cookie-cutter industry who thinks they're fighting the power, while sharing every opinion that said "power" tells them to.

That is, people pick the far more interesting topic to discuss.

I don't find fiction devoid of any real life issues interesting. I find that rather rote and inhuman, to be frank. A three year old can recite the plot of something to you, yet most college age adults can't analyze anything on any level below that. If that's what I was about, I'd be out here making reaction videos to Marvel movies or some shit.

Also, the argument of "You criticize capitalism, yet you perform capitalism, curious?" is silly. Don't do it.

And while sure..you're probably right that we're not supposed to take what Vegeta says literally, that does not mean the chapter does not want to make that connection: There's clear symmetry in the actions that Bardock takes in this chapter, and what Goku has done in his own life.

No, I'm definitely right. You're not supposed to take it literally. You're also absolutely right that the chapter frames things to show similarities between Bardock and Goku. I would argue the entirety of Super is fan pandering. Bringing Frieza back from the dead, bringing Trunks back, incorporating Broly twice (Kale, DBS Broly)—all fan favorite elements brought in. If you are aggrieved by that kind of thing, then the entirety of Super is sketchy.

So I don't tend to analyze things from that perspective when it comes to Super because Toriyama and Toyotaro tend to actually do interesting things with these fan favorite characters and ideas.

Now with all that said, I'm not going to draw conclusions on Bardock's inclusion yet. I found this chapter, extracted from the context of the larger story arc, pretty cool.

[batistabus]

I found this chapter, extracted from the context of the larger story arc, pretty cool.

At least it's a fun chapter in a vacuum.

You guys don't think this chapter plays appropriately with the themes of the arc? I think that's worth thinking about, anyway. It deals with the root of Granolah's trauma. While Vegeta and Granolah are prisoners of the past, Bardock is willing to change the course of his life on a whim based on the present moment.

[Tai Lung]

and the Granolah arc ended ....

[Grimlock]

Nope, that's not even Bardock from the TV Special. Yeah, he would probably have killed them right there (considering this is a Bardock from before losing his friends, which would explain the lack of headband), but what's that out-of-character personality? What are those words? That odd cockiness... It seems people really can't understand Bardock's character at all.

Kudos to whoever did the art, though. It's a really convincing Bardock from an aesthetic perspective. I liked that nod to his OVA's pose.

[Tai Lung]

Nope, that's not even Bardock from the TV Special. Yeah, he would probably have killed them right there (considering this is a Bardock from before losing his friends, which would explain the lack of headband), but what's that out-of-character personality? What are those words? That odd cockiness... It seems people really can't understand Bardock's character at all.

Kudos to whoever did the art, though. It's a really convincing Bardock from an aesthetic perspective. I liked that nod to his OVA's pose.

that is the point ...

[Hellspawn28]

How strong is Monaito? The guy stop Bardock's attack, I would imagine that he is stronger than Kami.

[UpFromTheSkies]

How strong is Monaito? The guy stop Bardock's attack, I would imagine that he is stronger than Kami.

Considering the power of the dragon balls he created, he's gotta be pretty strong.

[emperior]

How strong is Monaito? The guy stop Bardock's attack, I would imagine that he is stronger than Kami.

Monaito? Isn’t he like 213? That would probably make him weaker than Kami.

[Jack Bz]

How strong is Monaito? The guy stop Bardock's attack, I would imagine that he is stronger than Kami.

Stopped Bardock's attack? Do you mean Gas?

Monaito's power level was actually given in this chapter: 213. I would say he's probably a little weaker than Kami.

[TobyS]

All the talk about Monatios power compared to others, isn-t he wounded the entire time, we probably don't know his max, I'm sure it's still low tho.

[MCDaveG]

I don’t have problem with Bardock at all, but isn’t it a plothole?
Goku hitting his head that resulted in him being kind kid and rewriting his “evil” nature was a huge plotpoint in Saiyan arc.
Hence it doesn’t make sense now, with Raditz and other Saiyans of old being basically genocidal fighting manics by nature.

[Thani]

I don’t have problem with Bardock at all, but isn’t it a plothole?
Goku hitting his head that resulted in him being kind kid and rewriting his “evil” nature was a huge plotpoint in Saiyan arc.
Hence it doesn’t make sense now, with Raditz and other Saiyans of old being basically genocidal fighting manics by nature.

To be fair, it can be inferred that infant saiyans are naturally aggressive and violent, which is just fine for saiyan culture and parents (who can most likely handle them) if they're not immediately sent off to another planet. So that can still happen, with the bump in the head curbing little Kakarot's more violent impulses. He did seem quite chill in the movie/minus, but that can also be attributed to the fact that he was with people he knew and was comfortable with.

I mean, let's not forget how Raditz turned out, despite having Gine and Bardock as parents, even as a toddler.

That said, the fact that this is a retcon of sorts is undeniable.

[TKA]

You guys don't think this chapter plays appropriately with the themes of the arc? I think that's worth thinking about, anyway. It deals with the root of Granolah's trauma. While Vegeta and Granolah are prisoners of the past, Bardock is willing to change the course of his life on a whim based on the present moment.

The themes of the arc started to solidify two chapters ago. Before it was just things happening, which is to be expected in the early stages of any story or story arc. I’ve not drawn any conclusions about Bardock’s inclusion because I’m waiting to see where the pieces fall.

But if I was to draw conclusions, then there’s a strong dissonance between the arc saying to not obsess about the past, and then this ENTIRE chapter being about the past. The metatext is at odds there.

Last month I made a post saying that you can’t really move on and heal until the past has been settled, otherwise you won’t really be whole, but Bardock has no bearing on Goku or Vegeta. I’d argue he has little bearing on Granolah, because one good saiyan out of the hundreds that attacked his planet doesn’t negate his initial complaint that the Saiyans killed his people and stole his homeworld. That’s the larger context of the arc choking the life out of the chapter.

But as I said, I’m not willing to draw conclusions yet. I just hope wherever this goes, it doesn’t pretend that Bardock doing one altruistic act makes up for a genocide. That’s the “‘not all cops” defense.

I don’t have problem with Bardock at all, but isn’t it a plothole?
Goku hitting his head that resulted in him being kind kid and rewriting his “evil” nature was a huge plotpoint in Saiyan arc.
Hence it doesn’t make sense now, with Raditz and other Saiyans of old being basically genocidal fighting manics by nature.

1. No, it’s not a plot hole. That’s not even what a plot hole is.

2. It wasn’t a plot point in the Saiyan arc. It was an explanation for why Goku didn’t go on a murder spree as a baby, but what made him the Goku he was were the people and circumstances around him. The whole point is nurture trumps nature.

3. Bardock is still a piece of shit. He’s not suddenly Hesus. He’s just doing this because he has empathy for his wife and child, who these two remind him of. The chapter spells that out pretty bluntly.

[MCDaveG]

If a Bardock is a piece of shit then how did his kidness rubbed off of Goku? Puzzled…

[Cipher]

You guys don't think this chapter plays appropriately with the themes of the arc? I think that's worth thinking about, anyway. It deals with the root of Granolah's trauma. While Vegeta and Granolah are prisoners of the past, Bardock is willing to change the course of his life on a whim based on the present moment.

The themes of the arc started to solidify two chapters ago. Before it was just things happening, which is to be expected in the early stages of any story or story arc. I’ve not drawn any conclusions about Bardock’s inclusion because I’m waiting to see where the pieces fall.

But if I was to draw conclusions, then there’s a strong dissonance between the arc saying to not obsess about the past, and then this ENTIRE chapter being about the past. The metatext is at odds there.

Hm. I have to disagree there. I already see elements dovetailing.

Vegeta has been feeling the weight of not only his own actions, but also the actions of his people writ large. If anecdotes like the one about Bardock (which also helps shake Granolah out of his quest for vengeance) can illustrate that the Saiyans too, while bad people on the whole, consisted of individuals making their own individual choices in the moment, perhaps it can free him up again to focus solely on his own betterment and atonement, without, as Beerus chastised him for at the beginning of the arc, taking on the weight of the world.

History doesn’t need Vegeta bearing the weight for all Saiyans—they all had the capacity for good and evil in them and could bear their own.

As far as Bardock’s role in Granolah’s arc, I don’t think his own humane deed erases, or is meant to, the Saiyans’ genuine culpability in the Cerealans’ genocide. But it does take away Granolah’s ability to hate and seek vengeance against a monolithic boogeyman—it personified them as a group of people capable of good and bad choices. Predominantly bad, but harder to hate something as a monolith once its individuals have been (fairly; people are people) humanized. Saiyan society is dead, and its remaining individuals are individual people just like him—he can’t convince himself the entire species is full of cartoonish monsters anymore.

And neither can Vegeta, who had been laboring under similar thoughts from the opposite perspective.

[TKA]

If a Bardock is a piece of shit then how did his kidness rubbed off of Goku? Puzzled…

His kindness does not rub off on Goku.

One could argue it's the other way around, since the impetus for Bardock doing any good is because of Goku.

Vegeta has been feeling the weight of not only his own actions, but also the actions of his people writ large. If anecdotes like the one about Bardock (which also helps shake Granolah out of his quest for vengeance) can illustrate that the Saiyans too, while bad people on the whole, consisted of individuals making their own individual choices in the moment, perhaps it can free him up again to focus solely on his own betterment and atonement, without, as Beerus chastised him for at the beginning of the arc, taking on the weight of the world.

History doesn’t need Vegeta bearing the weight for all Saiyans—they all had the capacity for good and evil in them and could bear their own.

This would be the least satisfying and interesting way to finish out this particular character arc for me.

Vegeta already knows rugged individualism, and his development in the original manga was to leave that mindset behind and focus more on collectivism, and the welfare of others. So when he has issues with stuff the saiyans did, he already knows they were a pack of individuals making their own decisions because that's the culture he was so proud of up until the Buu arc.

It's worth noting that his issues aren't tied to any one particular saiyan, but saiyan society as a whole and the collective actions of that society. Highlighting one individual doing one small act of mercy literally in the middle of a genocide is hilariously silly.

It's #GirlBoss shit; the gender of the head of the evil conglomerate is immaterial. That there's one saiyan who decided to do one decent act while in the middle of committing atrocities is immaterial.

[MCDaveG]

If a Bardock is a piece of shit then how did his kidness rubbed off of Goku? Puzzled…

His kindness does not rub off on Goku.

One could argue it's the other way around, since the impetus for Bardock doing any good is because of Goku.

Vegeta has been feeling the weight of not only his own actions, but also the actions of his people writ large. If anecdotes like the one about Bardock (which also helps shake Granolah out of his quest for vengeance) can illustrate that the Saiyans too, while bad people on the whole, consisted of individuals making their own individual choices in the moment, perhaps it can free him up again to focus solely on his own betterment and atonement, without, as Beerus chastised him for at the beginning of the arc, taking on the weight of the world.

History doesn’t need Vegeta bearing the weight for all Saiyans—they all had the capacity for good and evil in them and could bear their own.

This would be the least satisfying and interesting way to finish out this particular character arc for me.

Vegeta already knows rugged individualism, and his development in the original manga was to leave that mindset behind and focus more on collectivism, and the welfare of others. So when he has issues with stuff the saiyans did, he already knows they were a pack of individuals making their own decisions because that's the culture he was so proud of up until the Buu arc.

It's worth noting that his issues aren't tied to any one particular saiyan, but saiyan society as a whole and the collective actions of that society. Highlighting one individual doing one small act of mercy literally in the middle of a genocide is hilariously silly.

It's #GirlBoss shit; the gender of the head of the evil conglomerate is immaterial. That there's one saiyan who decided to do one decent act while in the middle of committing atrocities is immaterial.

Except I took that directly from Vegeta stating it in Super manga. I hope you follow the source material before stating your arguments.

[TKA]

Except I took that directly from Vegeta stating it in Super manga. I hope you follow the source material before stating your arguments.

If English isn't your first language, I get certain idioms might escape you. Vegeta's comment was a "the apple doesn't fall from the tree" comment, not a eugenics "You inherited kindness from your father's genes" comment, which you seem to be interpreting it as.

Here's the Japanese line.

-------------------

For my own sanity, I'm done talking about Bardock, genes and the phenotypes that might come from said genes. It's boring, circular discussion where the obvious needs to be stated, and re-stated, and re-stated.

[PurestEvil]

People are still bitching about that one thing Vegeta said?
Vegeta wasn’t present when Bardock was in Cereal. He probably didn’t even know about Bardock’s family situation. All he knows is that Bardock did that one act of kindness, and he chose to make a witty remark about it.
Shoot, we SEE the ACTUAL reason why Bardock chose to save Granolah and Museli: they remind him of his own wife and child (Goku). Empathy is clearly not a genetic trait of the Saiyans.
Did y’all forget that Goku was still a mean little prick when he was a toddler—like a normal Saiyan child—before getting bonked by a rock?