Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Khin]

It just doesn't work. Why would Beerus use 10% of his power to beat enraged SSJ2 Vegeta? God damn it Toei.

Yeah.They could've only used Kaioken but instead we got x10.But for now,i'd put Rageta at 1% Beerus while SSG Goku at %7.

[RandomGuy96]

I would assume Beerus was at 10% during his fight with SSG Goku. He needed to be at that level to defeat Vegeta, and was never stated to have powered down after. One would assume he'd use at least that much on Goku, who explicitly was a more enjoyable fight for him. So Goku could be, like, 8% of Beerus. That matches up with their fight and leaves him some room to level up, go KK x10, and still not quite surpass Beerus. It does inflate things awful fast though. E.g.

Whis: 150
Beerus: 100
SSB Goku: 9.5
-KK x10: 95

10% Beerus: 10
SSG Goku: 8
Rageta: 4

The 6-10-15 scale is definitely no longer true in Super, though there's no reason to think it doesn't apply to the movies.

A more curious issue for me is the difference between Goku's base and SS. Is it really x50 as the fight between Vegeta and Cabba would imply?

[Khin]

Beerus was implied to have powered up during his fight with Goku,so i would say he powered down after he fought Rageta.

[VegetaSSJBlue]

It just doesn't work. Why would Beerus use 10% of his power to beat enraged SSJ2 Vegeta? God damn it Toei.

Beerus: 100
-Vs Goku SSG: 7
-Vs Vegeta: 1

Goku SSG: 6

Enraged Vegeta: 0.6

Goku 7%, Vegeta 1%

[Marlowe89]

I just think it's a bit presumptuous to assume that the 6-10-15 scale no longer applies simply because of what happened in this episode, particularly since we don't even know exactly how SSB compares to SSG in power beyond an offhand, not-entirely-clear "it exceeds it" statement in Super's narration.

Also, Beerus making it clear (on multiple occasions) that Goku was his second-strongest opponent of all time doesn't sit well with the notion of Goku only pushing Beerus to a minuscule fraction of his power during their fight. Sure, it's not necessarily contradictory per se but it doesn't exactly mesh either.

Whatever, hopefully we'll get more clarification.

[Khin]

I just think it's a bit presumptuous to assume that the 6-10-15 scale no longer applies simply because of what happened in this episode, particularly since we don't even know exactly how SSB compares to SSG in power beyond an offhand, not-entirely-clear "it exceeds it" statement in Super's narration.

The narrator confirmed that SSG < SSB

Episode 25
Minute: 2

Narrator: "In order to surpass the powered up Freeza, Goku mutated into a form that exceeded even Super Saiyan God."

[VegetaSSJBlue]

I just think it's a bit presumptuous to assume that the 6-10-15 scale no longer applies simply because of what happened in this episode, particularly since we don't even know exactly how SSB compares to SSG in power beyond an offhand, not-entirely-clear "it exceeds it" statement in Super's narration.

Also, Beerus making it clear (on multiple occasions) that Goku was his second-strongest opponent of all time doesn't sit well with the notion of Goku only pushing Beerus to a minuscule fraction of his power during their fight. Sure, it's not necessarily contradictory per se but it doesn't sound right either.

Whatever, hopefully we'll get more clarification.

SSG< SSB FNF< SSB Champa arc<<<<<<<<<< KaioKen x10< Champa< Beerus<<< Whis< Vados

[Marlowe89]

The narrator confirmed that SSG < SSB

Uhh, yeah, I'm aware of that. That's why I acknowledged it in my post that you just quoted.

I still think it can be interpreted in more than one way though.

[Bullza]

No mention of that Super comparison of Goku & Vegeta to Beerus.

I was about to ask that. So the 70% line and the going toe to toe line wasn't in the series then.

Looks like they've retconned it from early on then perhaps. Whether they've made Beerus much stronger than he was in the movies or they've made Goku and Vegeta much weaker who knows.

A more curious issue for me is the difference between Goku's base and SS. Is it really x50 as the fight between Vegeta and Cabba would imply?

Hard to say now isn't it.

Vegeta and Cabba were even in base but SSJ Vegeta seemed stronger than SSJ Cabba. Does that mean they weren't even base or does it mean Vegeta gets more out of SSJ because it's mastered perhaps?

How does SSJB fit in there? I'd have assumed that if it was just the SSJ form of a Saiyan with the power of a SSJG then SSJB would be 50x stronger than SSJG.

But it would have to be more than that.

[ZombieVito]

Wait a damn minute. Watching the episode again with subs and Beerus got nervous when Goku used regular Kaioken.

After that he uses Kaioken x3, x4 and finally x10.

[Khin]

Vegeta and Cabba were even in base but SSJ Vegeta seemed stronger than SSJ Cabba.

There''s two things that can explain this.

1. Cabba got beaten into a tar by Vegeta,so he's weakened when he transformed into a Super Saiyan thus why Vegeta ended up being stronger than him.Though one could argue that when you transform into a Super Saiyan for the first time,your power will return to normal.Going by official numbers,Freeza Arc SSJ Goku was 150,000,000,meaning he's 3,000,000 in base,yet before he transformed,he seems to be so tired that he can barely stand and received a total beating from a guy 20x stronger than him.

2. Since Cabba is not used to SSj and with his physique,the form drains his energy fast to the point where he become much weaker than Vegeta,which explains why he reverts back to his Base state later.

Wait a damn minute. Watching the episode again with subs and Beerus got nervous when Goku used regular Kaioken.

After that he uses Kaioken x3, x4 and finally x10.

It's probably because he heard that it multipliers Goku's power,its possible Goku can multiply to the point that he will surpass Beerus' power.Hit was keeping up with Kaioken Goku,and i don't think he's stronger than Champa or Beerus let alone Vados or Whis.

[ZombieVito]

It just doesn't work. Why would Beerus use 10% of his power to beat enraged SSJ2 Vegeta? God damn it Toei.

Beerus: 100
-Vs Goku SSG: 7
-Vs Vegeta: 1

Goku SSG: 6

Enraged Vegeta: 0.6

Goku 7%, Vegeta 1%

Beerus can't be a 1 vs Vegeta if he is a 100.

[Marlowe89]

How does SSJB fit in there? I'd have assumed that if it was just the SSJ form of a Saiyan with the power of a SSJG then SSJB would be 50x stronger than SSJG.

Herms' original translation of that statement was "Super Saiyan who's a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God", which according to the sentence structure could just as easily be interpreted simply as SS that taps into SSG's power. Alternatively it could mean that he's combining the power of SS with the power of SSG to give it a slight boost over SSG.

Either way I doubt many people assumed that he was literally amplifying the power of SSG 50 times, and I still find little reason to assume that now.

[Herms]

Having reviewed the episode, I would like to clarify that Hit is the one to say that he can't see SSB+KK Goku's movements, not Beerus. Hit says this immediately before the camera switches over to Beerus, so I'd assume these Spanish subs simply got the timing wrong. Anyway, it's not something Beerus says.

I'm no big numbers expert, and stop me if you've heard this one before, but maybe SSB and the Kaio-Ken don't "stack". So when Goku's using KKx10, it multiplies his base power (or something) by ten, but this power is simply added to his regular SSB power. That way, it's not just a flat SSBx10. I mean, even without getting into the whole Beerus issue, SSB+KK Goku doesn't instantly kill Hit in one punch or anything like that. In fact, it looks like he'll still be putting up a good fight next episode. So that on its own makes it look like Goku's not rocking a 60+ on the 6/10/15 scale.

Like, maybe:
Goku's base: 0.25
SSB: 7.5 (base x30, because why not?)
SSB+KK: 10 (7.5+[0.25x10])

Or something to that effect. This way, SSB+KK is equal to Beerus in terms of raw power, but has major stamina issues, so Goku's not exactly there yet. Or you can move the numbers around so that his raw power is greater than 10 (but probably not by too much, because again, he's not obliterating Hit), but the stamina issue would still prevent him from beating Beerus in a fight. There, the 6/10/15 scale is intact, the KKx10 is legitimately multiplying something by ten, and Goku still hasn't quite surpassed Beerus and Whis (in keeping with Toriyama's recent comments).

[VegetaSSJBlue]

Beerus can't be a 1 vs Vegeta if he is a 100.

Beerus> Goku SSB KKx10>>>>>>>>>> Goku SSB>> Goku SSG>>>>> Enraged Vegeta

[Bullza]

I suppose I'll attempt this for the 1,648th time now everything has changed once again. Assuming SSJG is still a 6 then...

Vados - 78,000
Whis - 75,000
Beerus - 50,000
Champa - 48,000
SSJB Goku Kaioken x10 - 35,000
Hit - 28,000
SSJB Goku - 3,500
SSJB Vegeta - 3,500
Golden Frieza - 3,400
SSJ Goku - 350
SSJ Vegeta - 350
SSJ Cabba - 300
Magetta - 280
Frost Final Form - 180
Goku - 7
Vegeta - 7
Cabba - 6
Frost Third Form - 6
Frieza Final Form - 5
Piccolo - 5
Botamo - 5

[LowRyder2005]

I would assume Beerus was at 10% during his fight with SSG Goku. He needed to be at that level to defeat Vegeta, and was never stated to have powered down after. One would assume he'd use at least that much on Goku, who explicitly was a more enjoyable fight for him. So Goku could be, like, 8% of Beerus. That matches up with their fight and leaves him some room to level up, go KK x10, and still not quite surpass Beerus. It does inflate things awful fast though. E.g.

Whis: 150
Beerus: 100
SSB Goku: 9.5
-KK x10: 95

10% Beerus: 10
SSG Goku: 8
Rageta: 4

The 6-10-15 scale is definitely no longer true in Super, though there's no reason to think it doesn't apply to the movies.

A more curious issue for me is the difference between Goku's base and SS. Is it really x50 as the fight between Vegeta and Cabba would imply?

I have to admit: I like this theory and it would be an extremely elegant way to solve the apparent contradiction.
So Beerus lies only against Goku and was always at 10% the whole time.

I may have some qualms with a comparison between the enraged Vegeta and the predicted strenght of Beerus and Vegito, though.

Any prediction of Vegito sitting between Goku and enraged Vegeta doesn't quite feel right. It all feels like Goku underestimates Beerus' true strenght to some degree too (and there's the fact he's taking a stab in the dark anwyay); since he is surprised again and again with the strenght of both himself in God form and Beerus.
Honestly, this is quite the predicament, even if you want to theorize Vegeta had enormous gains Goku was unaware of. On the other hand there is no way any regular SS form of Vegito can rival the Super Saiyan God.

[Marlowe89]

Having reviewed the episode, I would like to clarify that Hit is the one to say that he can't see SSB+KK Goku's movements, not Beerus. Hit says this immediately before the camera switches over to Beerus, so I'd assume these Spanish subs simply got the timing wrong. Anyway, it's not something Beerus says.

I'm no big numbers expert, and stop me if you've heard this one before, but maybe SSB and the Kaio-Ken don't "stack". So when Goku's using KKx10, it multiplies his base power (or something) by ten, but this power is simply added to his regular SSB power. That way, it's not just a flat SSBx10. I mean, even without getting into the whole Beerus issue, SSB+KK Goku doesn't instantly kill Hit in one punch or anything like that. In fact, it looks like he'll still be putting up a good fight next episode. So that on its own makes it look like Goku's not rocking a 60+ on the 6/10/15 scale.

Like, maybe:
Goku's base: 0.25
SSB: 7.5 (base x30, because why not?)
SSB+KK: 10 (7.5+[0.25x10])

So this way, SSB+KK is equal to Beerus in terms of raw power, but has major stamina issues, so Goku's not exactly there yet. Or you can move the numbers around so that his raw power is greater than 10 (but probably not by too much, because again, he's not obliterating Hit), but the stamina issue would still prevent him from beating Beerus in a fight. There, the 6/10/15 scale is intact, the KKx10 is legitimately multiplying something by ten, and Goku still hasn't quite surpassed Beerus and Whis (in keeping with Toriyama's recent comments).

Exactly, that was my first conclusion.

So assuming that KK is a base multiplier added to SSB:


Whis: 15
Beerus: 10
SSB + KK x10 Goku: 9-10
SSB Vegeta: 7-8
SSB Goku: 7-8
SSG Goku: 6
Base/SS Goku and Vegeta: <1

[ZombieVito]

Beerus: 100,000
-- 10% [vs Vegeta|Goku]: 10,000

Goku [SSG]: 6,000

Vegeta [Mutated SSJ2]: 2,500
-- Galick Gun: 5,000

Goku [RoF]: 15
-- SSB: 7,500

Freeza: 7.5
-- Final form: 15
-- Golden form: 9,000

Goku [U6]: 18
-- SSJ: 900
-- SSB: 9,000
-- SSB + KKx10: 90,000

Vegeta's "mutation" just got way more ridiculous.

[LowRyder2005]

Herms, what are you doing here?! You should be recruiting people to complete the "Big Picture"!

Anyway, isn't there the fact that Hit talks like Goku is getting "three, four... ten" times stronger, though? I can't interpret it in any way other than "SSB Goku gets around ten times stronger".