Non-thread-worthy discussions

[ABED]

We just wasted an entire year on Red Ribbon androids from the Earth.

Toriyama probably forgot about the whole Multiverse lore. He's entirely focused on the Earth/Super heroes stuff now.

If I were you, I would curb expectations for more lore surrounding Zeno/the Grand Priest.

I mean, the last time the Zeno was appeared was 3 years ago, for the ending of the Moro arc. It feels like Toriyama/Toei/Toyotaro don't care about the Multiverse/God lore anymore.

There's really not much to say about the multiverse. And I'd hardly call a successful movie a "waste".

And again, lore is boring and beside the point.

[Lukmendes]

We just wasted an entire year on Red Ribbon androids from the Earth.

Toriyama probably forgot about the whole Multiverse lore. He's entirely focused on the Earth/Super heroes stuff now.

If I were you, I would curb expectations for more lore surrounding Zeno/the Grand Priest.

I mean, the last time the Zeno appeared was over 3 years ago, for the ending of the Moro arc.

The Moro arc actually gave a lot of lore about the Supreme Kais, with the return of Dai Kaioshin, and the Angels, with the character of Merus. But since then, we've had the Granolah arc with 0 God lore and it's about a random mortal species that got massacred by the Saiyans. Then we had the Super Hero movie and retelling which also has 0 God lore.

It's funnily enough another of Toriyama's patterns, introduce something that increases the scope, then back to Earth adventures... Both times related to Red Ribbon even.

I honestly don't really care about lore or whatever, just think it should be better to do something else, Red Ribbon Army is just whatever, and while the Gammas were okay enough, Cell Max is so boring that when I rewatched the movie a few minutes ago I felt sleepy during the final battle.

So yeah, exploring the multiverse in some way could show interesting stuff, but, yeah, it'll take a while until Toriyama decides to do that again... Well, there's a chance Daima will do something, at least.

It feels like Toriyama/Toei/Toyotaro don't care about the Multiverse/God lore anymore.

Seems like just Toriyama doesn't care for it right now, since Toyotaro was doing some stuff with it when he has telling his own stories.

Dunno about Toei but they probably don't and would rather go for the nostalgia bait route, which Toriyama is certainly helping when making use of Broly and Red Ribbon Army...

[AliTheZombie13]

I wouldn't be really bothered if the Multiverse lore was abandoned forever.
I think Cabba is neat, but that's it. Outside Goku Black, little interesting has come out of it.

[SupremeKai25]

We just wasted an entire year on Red Ribbon androids from the Earth.

Toriyama probably forgot about the whole Multiverse lore. He's entirely focused on the Earth/Super heroes stuff now.

If I were you, I would curb expectations for more lore surrounding Zeno/the Grand Priest.

I mean, the last time the Zeno was appeared was 3 years ago, for the ending of the Moro arc. It feels like Toriyama/Toei/Toyotaro don't care about the Multiverse/God lore anymore.

There's really not much to say about the multiverse.

That's more like lack of imagination on your end.

And I'd hardly call a successful movie a "waste".

And that "successful movie" was in June 2022.

We are ending December 2023 without any new storyline since then.

And again, lore is boring and beside the point.

That's your opinion.

For many others, it is enjoyable to watch the author expand the lore and world-building of the setting. Not everything needs to be restricted to Goku's tiny little house in the middle of nowhere.

If lore was "boring and beside the point", then no one would have wasted their time with the Daizenshuu databooks. I, for one, truly enjoy and appreciate the Daizenshuu for fleshing-out the setting with ton of background lore and maps about the Earth/Galaxy/Other World/Gods, and I can't wait for Super to get its own version of Daizenshuu eventually.

[ABED]

The best multiverse stories understand that it's window dressing.

A year or more between stories is hardly a waste.

For many others, it is enjoyable to watch the author expand the lore and world-building of the setting. Not everything needs to be restricted to Goku's tiny little house in the middle of nowhere.

When was this EVER the case? Also, why are we putting successful in quotes? It was a successful film. It made money and was generally well liked.

If lore was "boring and beside the point", then no one would have wasted their time with the Daizenshuu databooks.

The appeal of those books is a niche within a niche. It's fake information. Lore is just exposition that is there to serve the story. The story isn't subordinate to it.

[TheGreatness25]

Is there a Japanese counterpart of the Shonen Jump or Viz apps? I want various version of Dragon Ball mangas (I own the print of the Tankōbon and colored version of the 42 Dragon Ball volumes). I even tried asking ChatGPT, but it so confidently told me that there's definitely a setting in the Viz/Shonen Jump app to switch it to Japanese, which there isn't (unless it's can changed).

[FortuneSSJ]

Toriyama screwed up by making MUI Goku have silver hair. We got a pointless recolor. It's not a saiyan form. Characters like Beerus won't get silver hair if they use it.

The simplicity of UI Sign makes it much better

[Grimlock]

So still a bum and not one of the strongest in the series? just like i said?

What's your point anyway? Bardock never was one of the "strongest in the series" generally speaking, not even Ooishi Naho's Bardock, who is the Legendary Super Saiyan, is the "strongest in the series", let alone Toyotaro's Bardock. Your comparison to Monkey D. Dragon and Minato Namikaze doesn't make any sense.

I did bring that up because a series set in the past would make him "one of the strongest in the series", yes. No matter how you slice it, all Bardocks are "special", one way or another. There never was a Bardock who isn't "special", be that in terms of power or in terms of personality.

This very weird idea that Bardock is a "bum", as you put it, is just a lie people tell themselves (in order to somehow make Goku's life "better"):

• Toei's Bardock - Special for having a high power level, close to ten thousand.
• Toriyama's Bardock - Special for caring about his family, not common among the Saiyans and for being the strongest low class warrior (which consequently puts him above almost the entire race).
• Toyotaro's Bardock - Special for the same reasons as the one above.
• Ooishi Naho's Bardock - Special for being the Legendary Super Saiyan.
• Dragon Ball Heroes/Dimps Bardock - Is he special? I mean, other people also get transformations. So...

People can try as hard as they can to diminish them, but fathers of protagonists, especially from these kind of series, will never truly be a "nobody" (and they shouldn't be). 2024 is knocking at the door, maybe it is time to just accept that and move on from this erroneous image you (plural) have of him.

[Jiren The Alpha]

So still a bum and not one of the strongest in the series? just like i said?

What's your point anyway? Bardock never was one of the "strongest in the series" generally speaking, not even Ooishi Naho's Bardock, who is the Legendary Super Saiyan, is the "strongest in the series", let alone Toyotaro's Bardock. Your comparison to Monkey D. Dragon and Minato Namikaze doesn't make any sense.

I did bring that up because a series set in the past would make him "one of the strongest in the series", yes. No matter how you slice it, all Bardocks are "special", one way or another. There never was a Bardock who isn't "special", be that in terms of power or in terms of personality.

This very weird idea that Bardock is a "bum", as you put it, is just a lie people tell themselves (in order to somehow make Goku's life "better"):

• Toei's Bardock - Special for having a high power level, close to ten thousand.
• Toriyama's Bardock - Special for caring about his family, not common among the Saiyans and for being the strongest low class warrior (which consequently puts him above almost the entire race).
• Toyotaro's Bardock - Special for the same reasons as the one above.
• Ooishi Naho's Bardock - Special for being the Legendary Super Saiyan.
• Dragon Ball Heroes/Dimps Bardock - Is he special? I mean, other people also get transformations. So...

People can try as hard as they can to diminish them, but fathers of protagonists, especially from these kind of series, will never truly be a "nobody" (and they shouldn't be). 2024 is knocking at the door, maybe it is time to just accept that and move on from this erroneous image you (plural) have of him.

1. Dragon and Minato one of the strongest in they veres, past and present, Toriyama Bardock was not, especially when you had every soldier in the Frieza Force, King Cold, Frieza, Ginyu Force, King Vegeta, Prince Vegeta And the Kais stronger then him

2. Gine was the one who chance him, without her, he would not have send Goku off and would die and be an even bigger bum, so she is the one more special then him. The best mother in shonen LET'S GO!!

3. I know you a big Bardock fan and Heroes is feeding you good with Bardock content, but i don't have an agenda against him and because i don't care about him, why would i care about a Goku with scars? Talk about creative bankruptcy. That's probably Toriyama's worst design lol.

[Grimlock]

1. Dragon and Minato one of the strongest in they veres, past and present, Toriyama Bardock was not, especially when you had every soldier in the Frieza Force, King Cold, Frieza, Ginyu Force, King Vegeta, Prince Vegeta And the Kais stronger then him

We know nothing of Monkey D. Dragon, and Minato Namikaze is not "one of the strongest". There are plenty of characters stronger than him, especially now with the Boruto franchise and its new characters. But again, I fail to see any connection to Bardock. What does this have to do with anything?

Also, I fail to see how you can pinpoint how strong Bardock actually is just by a mere chapter of Dragon Ball Minus (which seems to be what you are doing, correct me if I'm wrong). What are you, some Beerus that "can" tell how strong someone is just by poking them?

3. I know you a big Bardock fan and Heroes is feeding you good with Bardock content, but i don't have an agenda against him and because i don't care about him, why would i care about a Goku with scars? Talk about creative bankruptcy. That's probably Toriyama's worst design lol.

Not only you don't have an agenda, you don't have a point, you don't have arguments... Again, I have to ask, what exactly are you talking about? Because, like I said, all versions of Bardock are special, no running away from that. And you seem to care enough about him to bring him up in that thread.

[QuakingStar]

1. Dragon and Minato one of the strongest in they veres, past and present, Toriyama Bardock was not, especially when you had every soldier in the Frieza Force, King Cold, Frieza, Ginyu Force, King Vegeta, Prince Vegeta And the Kais stronger then him

We know nothing of Monkey D. Dragon, and Minato Namikaze is not "one of the strongest". There are plenty of characters stronger than him, especially now with the Boruto franchise and its new characters. But again, I fail to see any connection to Bardock. What does this have to do with anything?

Also, I fail to see how you can pinpoint how strong Bardock actually is just by a mere chapter of Dragon Ball Minus (which seems to be what you are doing, correct me if I'm wrong). What are you, some Beerus that "can" tell how strong someone is just by poking them?

3. I know you a big Bardock fan and Heroes is feeding you good with Bardock content, but i don't have an agenda against him and because i don't care about him, why would i care about a Goku with scars? Talk about creative bankruptcy. That's probably Toriyama's worst design lol.

Not only you don't have an agenda, you don't have a point, you don't have arguments... Again, I have to ask, what exactly are you talking about? Because, like I said, all versions of Bardock are special, no running away from that. And you seem to care enough about him to bring him up in that thread.

I stopped paying attention once he said Minato was one of the strongest in the entire series.

[Jiren The Alpha]

1. Dragon and Minato one of the strongest in they veres, past and present, Toriyama Bardock was not, especially when you had every soldier in the Frieza Force, King Cold, Frieza, Ginyu Force, King Vegeta, Prince Vegeta And the Kais stronger then him

We know nothing of Monkey D. Dragon, and Minato Namikaze is not "one of the strongest". There are plenty of characters stronger than him, especially now with the Boruto franchise and its new characters. But again, I fail to see any connection to Bardock. What does this have to do with anything?

Also, I fail to see how you can pinpoint how strong Bardock actually is just by a mere chapter of Dragon Ball Minus (which seems to be what you are doing, correct me if I'm wrong). What are you, some Beerus that "can" tell how strong someone is just by poking them?

3. I know you a big Bardock fan and Heroes is feeding you good with Bardock content, but i don't have an agenda against him and because i don't care about him, why would i care about a Goku with scars? Talk about creative bankruptcy. That's probably Toriyama's worst design lol.

Not only you don't have an agenda, you don't have a point, you don't have arguments... Again, I have to ask, what exactly are you talking about? Because, like I said, all versions of Bardock are special, no running away from that. And you seem to care enough about him to bring him up in that thread.

He got oneshot by Frieza? i know DB fans are bad at power scaling, but this is crazy.

Dragon is more relevant to the plot of One Piece then Toriyama Bradock is to Dragon Ball, Minato was more relevant to the plot of Naruto than Toriyama Bardock was to Dragon Ball, that's my point, sorry if i could not make that clear, english is my third languages lol.

I have not read Boruto but if you guys really don't thing Minato is not ONE of the strongest characters in original Naruto, especially comepare to Bardock in his verse, then i dont know what to say lol.

[Grimlock]

He got oneshot by Frieza? i know DB fans are bad at power scaling, but this is crazy.

I agree. It's crazy that just because someone gets "oneshot", they suddenly become weak. Without taking into consideration factors and contexts. Bardock was probably the thirteenth strongest Saiyan, but that's utterly irrelevant, he got "oneshot" by Freeza and "that's all that matters".

Vegeta is weak, he got "oneshot" by Freeza; Freeza is weak, he got "oneshot" by Trunks; Trunks is weak, he got "oneshot" by Cell; Cell is weak, he got "oneshot" by Gohan; Gohan is weak, he got "oneshot" by Majin Buu; Majin Buu is weak, he got "oneshot" by Beerus; Beerus is weak... (!?), he got "oneshot" by... who? Did we finally find someone who's actually strong!?

I know Dragon Ball fans are bad at power scaling, but this is crazy.

Dragon is more relevant to the plot of One Piece then Toriyama Bradock is to Dragon Ball, Minato was more relevant to the plot of Naruto than Toriyama Bardock was to Dragon Ball, that's my point, sorry if i could not make that clear, english is my third languages lol.

Dragon Ball Minus Bardock is more relevant to Dragon Ball than TV Special Bardock ever was. In the latter, Goku went to Earth without Bardock's involvement at all. You remove him from the story and you don't miss anything. That is not the case with the former, and I'm not even counting Granolah saga, I'm sticking to your sole Dragon Ball Minus preference. Overall, modern Bardock is more relevant now than Toei's Bardock ever was.

Please go and read that chapter again, then you come back here.

I stopped paying attention once he said Minato was one of the strongest in the entire series.

He should be, though. Such a cool character.

[QuakingStar]

He got oneshot by Frieza? i know DB fans are bad at power scaling, but this is crazy.

I agree. It's crazy that just because someone gets "oneshot", they suddenly become weak. Without taking into consideration factors and contexts. Bardock was probably the thirteenth strongest Saiyan, but that's utterly irrelevant, he got "oneshot" by Freeza and "that's all that matters".

Vegeta is weak, he got "oneshot" by Freeza; Freeza is weak, he got "oneshot" by Trunks; Trunks is weak, he got "oneshot" by Cell; Cell is weak, he got "oneshot" by Gohan; Gohan is weak, he got "oneshot" by Majin Buu; Majin Buu is weak, he got "oneshot" by Beerus; Beerus is weak... (!?), he got "oneshot" by... who? Did we finally find someone who's actually strong!?

I know Dragon Ball fans are bad at power scaling, but this is crazy.

Dragon is more relevant to the plot of One Piece then Toriyama Bradock is to Dragon Ball, Minato was more relevant to the plot of Naruto than Toriyama Bardock was to Dragon Ball, that's my point, sorry if i could not make that clear, english is my third languages lol.

Dragon Ball Minus Bardock is more relevant to Dragon Ball than TV Special Bardock ever was. In the latter, Goku went to Earth without Bardock's involvement at all. You remove him from the story and you don't miss anything. That is not the case with the former, and I'm not even counting Granolah saga, I'm sticking to your sole Dragon Ball Minus preference. Overall, modern Bardock is more relevant now than Toei's Bardock ever was.

Please go and read that chapter again, then you come back here.

I stopped paying attention once he said Minato was one of the strongest in the entire series.

He should be, though. Such a cool character.

Eh, Minato's kind of lame to me. FTG is definitely a useful tech especially for escaping attacks but he's severely overrated.

[Jiren The Alpha]

He got oneshot by Frieza? i know DB fans are bad at power scaling, but this is crazy.

I agree. It's crazy that just because someone gets "oneshot", they suddenly become weak. Without taking into consideration factors and contexts. Bardock was probably the thirteenth strongest Saiyan, but that's utterly irrelevant, he got "oneshot" by Freeza and "that's all that matters".

Vegeta is weak, he got "oneshot" by Freeza; Freeza is weak, he got "oneshot" by Trunks; Trunks is weak, he got "oneshot" by Cell; Cell is weak, he got "oneshot" by Gohan; Gohan is weak, he got "oneshot" by Majin Buu; Majin Buu is weak, he got "oneshot" by Beerus; Beerus is weak... (!?), he got "oneshot" by... who? Did we finally find someone who's actually strong!?

I know Dragon Ball fans are bad at power scaling, but this is crazy.

Dragon is more relevant to the plot of One Piece then Toriyama Bradock is to Dragon Ball, Minato was more relevant to the plot of Naruto than Toriyama Bardock was to Dragon Ball, that's my point, sorry if i could not make that clear, english is my third languages lol.

Dragon Ball Minus Bardock is more relevant to Dragon Ball than TV Special Bardock ever was. In the latter, Goku went to Earth without Bardock's involvement at all. You remove him from the story and you don't miss anything. That is not the case with the former, and I'm not even counting Granolah saga, I'm sticking to your sole Dragon Ball Minus preference. Overall, modern Bardock is more relevant now than Toei's Bardock ever was.

Please go and read that chapter again, then you come back here.

I stopped paying attention once he said Minato was one of the strongest in the entire series.

He should be, though. Such a cool character.

it's irrelevant how strong Bardock is compare to no name characters that we have never seen, he is the main characters dad that's weaker then or MAYBE on par with Raditz, but definitely weaker then Nappa, unless you want to count him being stronger then Gine, who btw was the one that chance Bardock to a good guy, if she was evil like a normal saiyan, Bardock wouldn't care about Goku, so she is the one that's special, Bardock conformed that by saying that her good nature rubbed off him on him. But your right, he was more important in Minus, but you can still remove him from the story and just have Gine be the one that sends him off. Because like i said, she is the one that's special among the saiyans.

[Yuji]

I was wondering if the series had to permanently kill off characters, I think Vegeta would be the only one I'd kill off, in the Boo arc. He doesn't do enough post-sacrifice or in Super to warrant such a prominent role in the story. His speech about Goku being #1 could have been reworked somewhere before his death.

It feels mean-spirited to kill off any other character but you can argue Vegeta's redemption up to the Boo arc wasn't strong enough to keep him around and trust in him to be good-natured. In Super he's done more than enough but I don't think his arc since has been particularly interesting. Vegeta dying tragically in a useless sacrifice after learning the value of love and friendship a little bit too late, and having his identity, his self and his pride, erased and reincarnated, is a fitting end to the character.

[MasenkoHA]

It feels mean-spirited to kill off any other character but you can argue Vegeta's redemption up to the Boo arc wasn't strong enough to keep him around and trust in him to be good-natured. In Super he's done more than enough but I don't think his arc since has been particularly interesting. Vegeta dying tragically in a useless sacrifice after learning the value of love and friendship a little bit too late, and having his identity, his self and his pride, erased and reincarnated, is a fitting end to the character.

If anything, I feel like the ending could have be reworked so Goku leaves to train Vegeta's reincarnation instead of Boo's.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Heroes being killed off permanently is not something Toriyama would write, too dark for his style. I also don't think TOEI would have wanted one of the most popular characters written off. Granted Piccolo died for good in GT but he still helped in the Super 17 arc so it's not like his role (not counting someone connected to him as would be the case with a reincarnation) in the story was eliminated, and of course that wasn't written by Toriyama.

[Cure Dragon 255]

It feels mean-spirited to kill off any other character but you can argue Vegeta's redemption up to the Boo arc wasn't strong enough to keep him around and trust in him to be good-natured. In Super he's done more than enough but I don't think his arc since has been particularly interesting. Vegeta dying tragically in a useless sacrifice after learning the value of love and friendship a little bit too late, and having his identity, his self and his pride, erased and reincarnated, is a fitting end to the character.

If anything, I feel like the ending could have be reworked so Goku leaves to train Vegeta's reincarnation instead of Boo's.

That would have been such a poignant and beautiful ending... and so would have never happened because Toriyama would never write it...Sigh.

[Noah]

I remember the former member "Doctor." here in these threads saying that Nº17 from the Universe Survival arc was out of character compared to how he was in the Cell arc, does anyone agree with that?

I feel that he's a bit different for sure, but not that quite.