Non-thread-worthy discussions

[MasenkoHA]

Something I still don't understand. Does King Kai have god ki? If not, why not? He is a god, isn't he? And if he does have god ki, how did Goku instant transmission Cell and himself to his planet? Goku wouldn't have been able to sense his ki then.

For whatever reason God ki only seems to exist for Destroyer Gods and Saiyans who attain God level. Obviously, like Ali said, because Toriyama only came up with God ki in 2013.

You would think, if nothing else, Kaioshin would have God ki since he's linked to Beerus but nope Piccolo can sense his regular ki

[The Monkey King]

A random thing which grinds my gears are "Purist" fans who get uppity about "Fan-made names" and say stuff like:

"Erm Akshually the names 'Mystic Gohan' and 'Zenkai Boost' are NOT in the manga!!"

Like bro who cares? You know what they're talking about.

[ABED]

The level of stakes are so absurdly high in DB and now Super that I find it hard to believe anyone is actually bothered by Goku and others having a hand in it.

[TobyS]

Something I still don't understand. Does King Kai have god ki? If not, why not? He is a god, isn't he? And if he does have god ki, how did Goku instant transmission Cell and himself to his planet? Goku wouldn't have been able to sense his ki then.

I just assume the lesser gods have both.
Dende says in the moro arc his divine power/god ki is still developing, but obviously he had regular ki before.
Not all fruit/core people become kaios or kaioshins so they must start with regular ki or they'd be dead before they ever got the job.

Beerus might be the exception, maybe destroyer god ki just smothers or converts his regular ki. Like the androids.

Does Goku ever sense shin, I know Piccolo did but he's kinda sorta part god and it took him a while to suddenly feel it.

[AliTheZombie13]

Honestly, it's hard to take Shin's "God Ki" seriously.
At first, what the manga frames it as, is that Shin is on a league of strength above them all.
But then, the manga goes... "Nah, Shin sucks."

[Grimlock]

You're all better off not trying to find excuses and explanations for things that don't have (in-universe) excuses and explanations. Just call them what they are: problems, contradictions and inconsistencies.

They even dared to tell audience that Buu had god Ki (twice), even though his Ki could be sensed.

In the very movie where "god Ki" is introduced, Goku was standing in front of a deity but no comment is ever made and Goku was about to use teleportation to go to the Kaioshin Realm. This concept was clearly never properly thought out nor introduced and used correctly since then.

At first, what the manga frames it as, is that Shin is on a league of strength above them all.

Did it, though? It still is much more clear to me that it isn't about strength, but rather his status. May you point out what exactly makes any of this be about strength?

[AliTheZombie13]

Did it, though? It still is much more clear to me that it isn't about strength, but rather his status. May you point out what exactly makes any of this be about strength?

[Grimlock]

I guess there's that. Though I think by "us" Piccolo is referring to the difference between him and Kaioshin of East specifically, not "everyone" as you said in your last post.

Be that as it may, we can't rule out that Piccolo forfeited due to the status difference. Not that I was ruling out that Piccolo forfeited due to strength, I didn't even remember that line, nor did I see that panel when I posted those images. I guess we won't ever have a conclusion to this conversation either, just like Gohan's form against Dabura.

[AliTheZombie13]

I always felt since the first time I watched/read that Shin was meant to be portrayed differently than how he was portrayed later. He's introduced as quite smug, condescending and apathetic, almost like he was meant to be a villain, anti-hero or at the very least stronger than most of the cast. But as the story went, it became painfully clear that Shin was pathetically incompetent, as a strategist, fighter and even as a God.

I can't say for sure, since I'm not Toriyama, nor anybody involved in the production, but "The difference of power between us" even if it was meant to be between him and Piccolo alone, reads like Shin was meant to be portrayed much stronger than he ended up as.

[ZeroNeonix]

I get the sense the Supreme Kai was kind of a red herring at first. Making him all mysterious, having him make these evil looking faces. But after his true identity is revealed, as well as his intentions, he softens and becomes a vehicle for explaining the plot. IIRC, he doesn't even fight a single time. Only time I remember him fighting is on one of those DBZ games on SNES, which I used to play on emulator years ago.

I assume he's not a total pushover. He might have been stronger than Piccolo at the time, but he was surprised by the existence of Super Saiyan 2 and apparently was outclassed by it. So his power was probably somewhere between "Super Namekian" Piccolo and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

Given how rare it is for someone in-universe to reach Frieza's level of power, barring some artificial humans specifically made to kill Goku, primordial monsters, a literal demon, literal gods, etc, it's not that surprising that the Supreme Kai would be overconfident.

[Lukmendes]

Honestly, it's hard to take Shin's "God Ki" seriously.
At first, what the manga frames it as, is that Shin is on a league of strength above them all.
But then, the manga goes... "Nah, Shin sucks."

Shin only seemed to be above Piccolo specifically, and Piccolo is fodder to Goku.

Like both Goten and Trunks are supposed to be pretty strong, and when Trunks uses a ki blast on 18 in 453, which's specifically not at full power, she's baffled how strong the attack is, with her dodging probably meaning it'd hurt if she got hit, and when they go SS to show off how strong they are in 473, Piccolo is shocked over how strong they are, while Goku's reaction is "Is that it?"

So yeah, Shin's power was only compared to Piccolo, and all that we know is that he's too strong for Piccolo, but Goku and Vegeta are levels above that, so I don't think Shin's power level really got retconned, and if it did it's not as noticeable as other cases since Goku and Vegeta are way above Piccolo anyways.

You're all better off not trying to find excuses and explanations for things that don't have (in-universe) excuses and explanations. Just call them what they are: problems, contradictions and inconsistencies.

They even dared to tell audience that Buu had god Ki (twice), even though his Ki could be sensed.

I think Herms pointed out that "Godly Power" is not written the same way as "God Ki".

Semantics aside, this power within whatever Buus is never actively used by any Buu, so I don't think saying he has god ki is exactly accurate when he uses regular ki. It's specially not much of a contradiction compared to whether or not Kaioshins have god ki that can be sensed or not.

In the very movie where "god Ki" is introduced, Goku was standing in front of a deity but no comment is ever made and Goku was about to use teleportation to go to the Kaioshin Realm. This concept was clearly never properly thought out nor introduced and used correctly since then.

Yeah, god ki is something that was hinted at in Buu saga, but Toriyama changes the rules as he goes a lot, this is just another case.

I always felt since the first time I watched/read that Shin was meant to be portrayed differently than how he was portrayed later. He's introduced as quite smug, condescending and apathetic, almost like he was meant to be a villain, anti-hero or at the very least stronger than most of the cast. But as the story went, it became painfully clear that Shin was pathetically incompetent, as a strategist, fighter and even as a God.

I can't say for sure, since I'm not Toriyama, nor anybody involved in the production, but "The difference of power between us" even if it was meant to be between him and Piccolo alone, reads like Shin was meant to be portrayed much stronger than he ended up as.

Shin is basically Future Trunks 2, but even worse, since Trunks at least was as strong as Goku and while his characterization later is different compared to the initial debut, it added more weight to the threat.

Shin is only comparatively strong to Piccolo, who may only be above Semi-Perfect Cell (Since he held himself against Cell Juniors, but Cell himself doesn't talk about him doing a good job), but the power levels grew a lot after that, so there is a lot of room between "stronger than Piccolo" and "weaker than Goku", 'cause the post ROSAT training made Goku around twice as strong as post ROSAT Vegeta, and after Cell saga Goku trained to the point he's around Cell saga Gohan's level... So yeah, even if Shin is around as strong as Perfect Cell, that power level is irrelevant now, since Goku compares Dabura to Cell and talks in this "Yeah I can handle it" way.

Edit: Then again, now that I remember, when Gohan went SS2 against Kibito in 444, Kibito was surprised at how strong he is, but Shin wasn't too surprised at it, which's something I thought about before as evidence that maybe Shin got nerfed over time, so maybe he was meant to be decently strong, though probably still weaker than Goku, but then was nerfed to have been significantly weaker.

[SupremeKai25]

I always felt since the first time I watched/read that Shin was meant to be portrayed differently than how he was portrayed later. He's introduced as quite smug, condescending and apathetic, almost like he was meant to be a villain, anti-hero or at the very least stronger than most of the cast. But as the story went, it became painfully clear that Shin was pathetically incompetent, as a strategist, fighter and even as a God.

I can't say for sure, since I'm not Toriyama, nor anybody involved in the production, but "The difference of power between us" even if it was meant to be between him and Piccolo alone, reads like Shin was meant to be portrayed much stronger than he ended up as.

Toriyama is a troll, never forget that.

We all got trolled by Shin/Toriyama. We all thought he was the new "big bad" after Frieza and Cell, but he was actually a fraud.

Although he is also a pitiable character. He is not incompetent due to laziness, he is incompetent because all of his mentors were slaughtered by an eldritch demon.

There's also the fact that, before DBS, the Supreme Kai was the highest-ranking Deity in the reality, he was a very big deal. His importance was reduced by the DBS' reveals.

Before DBS, there were no 12 Universes.
Before DBS, there were no Destroyers or Angels.
Before DBS, there was no Zeno or Grand Priest.

So, before DBS, the Supreme Kai/Shin was pretty much the highest-ranking Deity in the reality. All the DBS world-building and world expansion recontextualized and reduced the importance of the Supreme Kais/Shin. They are no longer the highest-ranking Gods, they work for Zeno and the Grand Priest, and are the colleagues of the Destroyers. Shin is no longer the ruler of the entire reality, but just one Universe out of 12.

[ZeroNeonix]

Like both Goten and Trunks are supposed to be pretty strong, and when Trunks uses a ki blast on 18 in 453, which's specifically not at full power, she's baffled how strong the attack is, with her dodging probably meaning it'd hurt if she got hit, and when they go SS to show off how strong they are in 473, Piccolo is shocked over how strong they are, while Goku's reaction is "Is that it?"

I may be wrong, but I think everyone was shocked by Goten amd Trunks because of their age more than because of their power itself. They were kids who just casually discovered Super Saiyan without really trying. It's been a while, so I don't remember how their interaction with 18 went. I remember them being disqualified because of their disguise being revealed, but 18 shouldn't have had any trouble with them, since she was so much stronger than Super Saiyan Vegeta.

[Lukmendes]

Toriyama is a troll, never forget that.

We all got trolled by Shin/Toriyama. We all thought he was the new "big bad" after Frieza and Cell, but he was actually a fraud.

Although he is also a pitiable character. He is not incompetent due to laziness, he is incompetent because all of his mentors were slaughtered by an eldritch demon.

There's also the fact that, before DBS, the Supreme Kai was the highest-ranking Deity in the reality, he was a very big deal. His importance was reduced by the DBS' reveals.

Before DBS, there were no 12 Universes.
Before DBS, there were no Destroyers or Angels.
Before DBS, there was no Zeno or Grand Priest.

So, before DBS, the Supreme Kai/Shin was pretty much the highest-ranking Deity in the reality. All the DBS world-building and world expansion recontextualized and reduced the importance of the Supreme Kais/Shin. They are no longer the highest-ranking Gods, they work for Zeno and the Grand Priest, and are the colleagues of the Destroyers. Shin is no longer the ruler of the entire reality, but just one Universe out of 12.

Funnily enough, Shin taking the role of the most important god itself is a retcon, Kaio was meant to be the most important god of all to the point he chastises Goku for sacrificing him, "the most important person in the universe", to save Earth in Cell saga, in chapter 413.

Toriyama just retcons stuff to increase the scope, because if it was just Kaio as the most important of the gods, then Shin would look weird, and if it stopped at Shin then we couldn't have Beerus (Though multiverse could still happen).

I won't be surprised if Toriyama ever comes up with a way to say there's something beyond Zeno, it sounds absurd sure, but the very idea of Beerus was absurd before too, to the point that before BoG, the idea of gods being worth a damn used to be laughable.

I may be wrong, but I think everyone was shocked by Goten amd Trunks because of their age more than because of their power itself. They were kids who just casually discovered Super Saiyan without really trying. It's been a while, so I don't remember how their interaction with 18 went. I remember them being disqualified because of their disguise being revealed, but 18 shouldn't have had any trouble with them, since she was so much stronger than Super Saiyan Vegeta.

18 dodged the blast and was baffled over how strong they are, and decided to end the battle as soon as possible because of that power.

While it's debatable if she really is weaker than Trunks or not, she's most certainly wary of his power (Which, again, the blast Trunks used is explicitly said to not be at full power), and didn't want to keep fighting him and Goten, so it's safe to assume Trunks is significantly stronger than Vegeta was when he fought 18, since Vegeta was just fodder for her.

[AliTheZombie13]

I won't be surprised if Toriyama ever comes up with a way to say there's something beyond Zeno, it sounds absurd sure, but the very idea of Beerus was absurd before too, to the point that before BoG, the idea of gods being worth a damn used to be laughable.

I have zero doubt this will happen in the future.
"There is always someone stronger" has been taken to such a ludicrous degree that there has to be someone beyond Zeno, and someone beyond the person beyond Zeno, and so on.

[MasenkoHA]

I won't be surprised if Toriyama ever comes up with a way to say there's something beyond Zeno, it sounds absurd sure, but the very idea of Beerus was absurd before too, to the point that before BoG, the idea of gods being worth a damn used to be laughable.

I have zero doubt this will happen in the future.
"There is always someone stronger" has been taken to such a ludicrous degree that there has to be someone beyond Zeno, and someone beyond the person beyond Zeno, and so on.

Zeno isn't the strongest, that was the point, he subverts expectations because the Top God isn't a fighter. There's nothing to surprass with Zeno because he's not even on the chain.

[AliTheZombie13]

Zeno isn't the strongest, that was the point, he subverts expectations because the Top God isn't a fighter. There's nothing to surprass with Zeno because he's not even on the chain.

In before Toriyama reveals there are the Secret Shin Gods of Destruction, who serve the Secret Shin Angels, who serve the Secret Shin Zeno. And somehow, Shen Long, and Freeza, and King Cold, and the Kaios, and Majin Boo, and everybody else always knew about them, even though they were never mentioned before...

Sounds stupid, I know, but I wouldn't put it past Toriyama.

[ZeroNeonix]

Well, fans have speculated for a while that there is a missing god. There's the Grand Priest who is the top angel, and there is Zeno, the ultimate destroyer god. It seems like there should be a third, for the Grand Priest to serve as the neutral intercessor for. Is Zeno also a creator god? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe Toribot will turn out to be canon. Maybe Zalama is that creator god who disappeared for some reason.

Heck, I noticed how Zeno acts like a child, and for a while, I've been half expecting his parents to come home and chastise him for causing such a mess.

"We leave you alone for just two billion years, and you destroy a third of the universes? You are in so much trouble, young man!"

[Lukmendes]

I have zero doubt this will happen in the future.
"There is always someone stronger" has been taken to such a ludicrous degree that there has to be someone beyond Zeno, and someone beyond the person beyond Zeno, and so on.

While I won't be surprised if it happens, I'll give Toriyama some credit and say I don't expect it, since usually whenever a super strong character shows up, Goku surpasses him either in the current arc or the next one, usually, while with Beerus it didn't happen yet to the point Toriyama keeps increasing his power so Goku doesn't surpass him, and we still have Whis, Grand Priest and Zeno, all far above Goku and it's not talked like Goku has a chance of getting to their level.

So yeah, at the very least I don't expect Goku to surpass them, though, whether or not there'll be something beyond Zeno, I dunno... Again I don't expect it but won't be surprised if it happens.

Well, fans have speculated for a while that there is a missing god. There's the Grand Priest who is the top angel, and there is Zeno, the ultimate destroyer god. It seems like there should be a third, for the Grand Priest to serve as the neutral intercessor for. Is Zeno also a creator god? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe Toribot will turn out to be canon. Maybe Zalama is that creator god who disappeared for some reason.

Heck, I noticed how Zeno acts like a child, and for a while, I've been half expecting his parents to come home and chastise him for causing such a mess.

"We leave you alone for just two billion years, and you destroy a third of the universes? You are in so much trouble, young man!"

Y'know... That's just goofy enough for Toriyama to actually go for it, or at least maybe have considered it, it sounds like Toriyama alright lol.

[SupremeKai25]

We just wasted an entire year on Red Ribbon androids from the Earth.

Toriyama probably forgot about the whole Multiverse lore. He's entirely focused on the Earth/Super heroes stuff now.

If I were you, I would curb expectations for more lore surrounding Zeno/the Grand Priest.

I mean, the last time the Zeno appeared was over 3 years ago, for the ending of the Moro arc.

The Moro arc actually gave a lot of lore about the Supreme Kais, with the return of Dai Kaioshin, and the Angels, with the character of Merus. But since then, we've had the Granolah arc with 0 God lore and it's about a random mortal species that got massacred by the Saiyans. Then we had the Super Hero movie and retelling which also has 0 God lore.

It feels like Toriyama/Toei/Toyotaro don't care about the Multiverse/God lore anymore.