The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[TheMightyOzaru]

Assuming the two saiyans are equals before transforming, I think Grade 3 could well be the more powerful of the two. Basically, if Vegeta was a bit stronger than Trunks, and Cell was significantly stronger than Vegeta, and Trunks far surpassed Cell's strength when he used Grade 3 (which Cell himself said), then Grade 3's boost must have been pretty big, don't you think? And that's on top of the difference between regular Super Saiyan and Grade 2. If I look at it that way, it seems a bit hard to fit both Grades 2 and 3 into the gap between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 (unless we ignored the Super Saiyan 2 multiplier from the Super Exciting Guides, at least). If nothing else, I think this is a possibility.

I should mention that I'm going by the manga only, in which Trunks never lays a single hit on Cell while using Grade 3.

Cell only said brute strength if I remember correctly. I also dont think that SSJG3 Trunks comes close to MSSJ Goku since Trunks is really surprised at MSSJ Goku's power. Plus Cell could just be messing with Trunks. I also dont really see how increase on SSJ surpasses the ascension of SSJ that is SSJ2. However thats just me.

[Bussani]

He says "power", like most characters do. Piccolo also says that Trunks's ki has surpassed Cell's, so apart from the fact he's not revealing his true power (which we don't see until pretty far into the Cell Game), Cell isn't just messing with him.

I don't think Trunks at Grade 3 is stronger than "mastered" Super Saiyan Goku, either. That's why I specified that the two saiyans be equals before becoming Grade 3 or Super Saiyan 2.

[TheMightyOzaru]

He says "power", like most characters do. Piccolo also says that Trunks's ki has surpassed Cell's, so apart from the fact he's not revealing his true power (which we don't see until pretty far into the Cell Game), Cell isn't just messing with him.

I don't think Trunks at Grade 3 is stronger than "mastered" Super Saiyan Goku, either. That's why I specified that the two saiyans be equals before becoming Grade 3 or Super Saiyan 2.

Ah I see I misunderstood .

[Mystic Gohan]

SSjin 2 is surely superior imo. I don't buy the SEG's SSjin 2 multiplier. It seems far too low with what is implied with Perfect Cell's power.

[TheMightyOzaru]

SSjin 2 is surely superior imo. I don't buy the SEG's SSjin 2 multiplier. It seems far too low with what is implied with Perfect Cell's power.

Thats why I believe Gohan's anger made such a difference. in other words x2 x? and we got Gohans power against Cell.

[Mystic Gohan]

That's why I feel the SEG multiplier is problematic. When you need an excuse to make it work, it's a sign that it isn't right imo.

[Hitiro]

SSjin 2 is surely superior imo. I don't buy the SEG's SSjin 2 multiplier. It seems far too low with what is implied with Perfect Cell's power.

There isn't anything wrong with the SSJ2 multiplier if you consider that Goku and Gohan both increased their base strength by a great margin in the ROSAT. You seem to be forgetting that Goku was battling Cell(Restricted) evenly at the Cell Games whereas it took Trunks SSJ Grade 3 to match his strength. And Gohan is even stronger than his father at this point in time, the only reason Cell was bashing him about was because Gohan didn't want to fight him. So SSJ2 being twice as strong as SSJ is perfectly fine.

[Mystic Gohan]

SSjin 2 is surely superior imo. I don't buy the SEG's SSjin 2 multiplier. It seems far too low with what is implied with Perfect Cell's power.

There isn't anything wrong with the SSJ2 multiplier if you consider that Goku and Gohan both increased their base strength by a great margin in the ROSAT. You seem to be forgetting that Goku was battling Cell(Restricted) evenly at the Cell Games whereas it took Trunks SSJ Grade 3 to match his strength. And Gohan is even stronger than his father at this point in time, the only reason Cell was bashing him about was because Gohan didn't want to fight him. So SSJ2 being twice as strong as SSJ is perfectly fine.

I was referring to the fact that the Z-Senshi were shocked at FP PC's power-up even after SSjin 2 Kid Gohan being around. For that to be possible, it had to have been a giant power-up.

[Nazi Cola]

Yeah, I think SSjG3 gives a higher power boost than SSj2, but SSj2 is obviously the better form.

[Hitiro]

I was referring to the fact that the Z-Senshi were shocked at FP PC's power-up even after SSjin 2 Kid Gohan being around. For that to be possible, it had to have been a giant power-up.

Well something like a 1.5 times increase would be large considering their powerlevels at this point.

Cell(Restricted): 300,000,000
Cell(Full Power): 300,000,000 * 1.5 = 450,000,000

Obviously if his power increases by half of his original power than they are going to be shocked. They were really assuming, or hoping, he was close to his maximum and was only holding back 10% or 20%. To find out he was only fighting at 66% of his maximum would be worrying.

[Mystic Gohan]

I was referring to the fact that the Z-Senshi were shocked at FP PC's power-up even after SSjin 2 Kid Gohan being around. For that to be possible, it had to have been a giant power-up.

Well something like a 1.5 times increase would be large considering their powerlevels at this point.

Cell(Restricted): 300,000,000
Cell(Full Power): 300,000,000 * 1.5 = 450,000,000

Obviously if his power increases by half of his original power than they are going to be shocked. They were really assuming, or hoping, he was close to his maximum and was only holding back 10% or 20%. To find out he was only fighting at 66% of his maximum would be worrying.

That's fine if that is what you think Cell's power-up was, but it seemed massive to me. Plus a 2x SSjin 2 multiplier definitely does not work in the Buu saga.

[Kaboom]

That's fine if that is what you think Cell's power-up was, but it seemed massive to me. Plus a 2x SSjin 2 multiplier definitely does not work in the Buu saga.

That's odd, it's always worked just fine for me.

Anyway, I also am in that camp that thinks SSj Grade 3 might actually be a bit above the power of Super Saiyan 2. But the difference wouldn't be all that big (Grade 3 at 125x to SSj2's 100x), and with equal starting powers, the Super Saiyan 2 would pretty much always prevail in battle given its balance compared to Grade 3's debilitating flaws.

[Fox666]

I don't know where this idea of a "rage boost" came from. Gohan sudden increases in power never lasted more than a few seconds, not to mentioned Gohan transformed back in a regular Super Saiyan after Goku died. So it seems very unlikely for me that Gohan power was something else besides the Super Saiyan 2.

It appears to me that this infamous "rage boost" is a way to explain the multiplier of Super Saiyan 2 being of only 2 times, considering Gohan managed to defeat Cell with a half-powered Kamehameha. But for me he won because Vegeta distracted Cell, and there is no way to quantify that.

I think the easiest way to see the fight beetween Cell and Gohan, was that Cell was slightly supearior to a Full Power Super Saiyan, and that after his self-destruction Cell matched Gohan's strength as a Super Saiyan 2.

I was referring to the fact that the Z-Senshi were shocked at FP PC's power-up even after SSjin 2 Kid Gohan being around. For that to be possible, it had to have been a giant power-up.

That kind of logic doesn't really work. There was a lot of drama put when Freeza raised his power from 70 to 100%, however since he beggining of his fight with Goku, Freeza increased his power by dozens of times and nobody said anything about it.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Not sure where it comes from myself, but I think the Daizenshuu's entry on Gohan "not being able to gain power through anger" when talking about his weakened self during the Boo saga makes the idea of a rage boost possible.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Piccolo (GT) vs Super Perfect Cell

Piccolo's only feat in GT is surviving SS Gohan-Baby's Kamehameha. Is Piccolo strong enough to beat Cell?

[mysticboy]

Piccolo (GT) vs Super Perfect Cell

Piccolo's only feat in GT is surviving SS Gohan-Baby's Kamehameha. Is Piccolo strong enough to beat Cell?

It's been what 20, 25 years since Cell? Even training lightly for 2 decades, I believe he can hold his own against Cell.

[DBZAOTA482]

Piccolo (GT) vs Super Perfect Cell

Piccolo's only feat in GT is surviving SS Gohan-Baby's Kamehameha. Is Piccolo strong enough to beat Cell?

Cell wins by default because that incarnation of Piccolo is from GT, and his name is not Goku plus Piccolo pretty much quit training like everyone who wasn't Goku, Vegeta, and Tenshinhan.

[Saiga]

Piccolo (GT) vs Super Perfect Cell

Piccolo's only feat in GT is surviving SS Gohan-Baby's Kamehameha. Is Piccolo strong enough to beat Cell?

Cell wins by default because that incarnation of Piccolo is from GT, and his name is not Goku plus Piccolo pretty much quit training like everyone who wasn't Goku, Vegeta, and Tenshinhan.

Au contraire, being a GT character Piccolo would stomp anyone of Vegetto's level or under.

He'd just do it offscreen so as not to steal Goku's screentime.

[dbzfan7]

I would think Grade 2 is 1.4 SSJ and Grade 3 is 1.7 or 1.8 SSJ. In Super Sonic Warriors Grade 3 was classified as 1.5 I think.
Piccolo (GT) vs Super Perfect Cell

Cell wins by default because that incarnation of Piccolo is from GT, and his name is not Goku plus Piccolo pretty much quit training like everyone who wasn't Goku, Vegeta, and Tenshinhan.

Au contraire, being a GT character Piccolo would stomp anyone of Vegetto's level or under.

He'd just do it offscreen so as not to steal Goku's screentime.

Too both of you



Anyways

SSJ4 Vegetto vs Omega Shenron (fused with 10 other Omega Shenrons) yes it's another one of those silly fights

[TheMightyOzaru]

I don't know where this idea of a "rage boost" came from. Gohan sudden increases in power never lasted more than a few seconds, not to mentioned Gohan transformed back in a regular Super Saiyan after Goku died. So it seems very unlikely for me that Gohan power was something else besides the Super Saiyan 2.

It appears to me that this infamous "rage boost" is a way to explain the multiplier of Super Saiyan 2 being of only 2 times, considering Gohan managed to defeat Cell with a half-powered Kamehameha. But for me he won because Vegeta distracted Cell, and there is no way to quantify that.

I think the easiest way to see the fight beetween Cell and Gohan, was that Cell was slightly supearior to a Full Power Super Saiyan, and that after his self-destruction Cell matched Gohan's strength as a Super Saiyan 2.

I was referring to the fact that the Z-Senshi were shocked at FP PC's power-up even after SSjin 2 Kid Gohan being around. For that to be possible, it had to have been a giant power-up.

That kind of logic doesn't really work. There was a lot of drama put when Freeza raised his power from 70 to 100%, however since he beggining of his fight with Goku, Freeza increased his power by dozens of times and nobody said anything about it.

The guide books mention that Gohan's anger influenced his power when he fought Cell since the guide books mention the fact he wasnt as powerful as he was during the Cell Games since he lacked anger. Not to mention Goku says when Gohan is angry he cant lose. This sounds like pretty solid evidence for a "rage boost"