Dragonball Vs. Non Dragonball

[astrallite]

Anyways it's part of my fandom to believe that most of the characters(Saiyans and Piccolo at least) are without a doubt faster than light both in combat speed and travel speed by the Buu arc. There is no way that their combat speed didn't go up by more than twice after all that training in previous arcs after already surpassing Popo, who is faster than lightning(up to ½ the speed of light).

DBZ and even DBGT characters are nowhere close to lightning speed(which is 1/10 of ligth speed), let alone FTL speed.End of DBZ is at most massively hypersonic,no more than that. Saint Seiya, Sailor moon, and many other characters are such massively FTL(both in travel speed and combat reflexes/speed) that they make SSJ4 Gogeta and the Z Fighters seem like slow snails.

Didn't Goku dodge lasers from the RR Army? So that would imply his dodge speed exceeds light speed. I know travel speed never gets close to lightspeed (Goku and even Gohan always takes a noticeable time to join battles when they start off somewhere else on the planet) but this would imply at the very least they are capable of short bursts of faster than light.

[Bussani]

Didn't Goku dodge lasers from the RR Army?

Which part are you thinking of? The only ones I can think of are the beams shot from Black's robot thing, but I'd say they're closer to the kind of beam weapons you'd get in Gundam than to a laser. Besides that, this subject always makes me think of a couple of things.

1) If it's impossible to avoid being shot by a laser without being faster than a laser, then it should also be impossible to avoid being shot by a bullet in real life, since bullets are much faster than people. As Char put it in Gundam (what's with all the Gundam references, Bussani?!), you dodge where the gun is aiming, not the projectile itself. May not always apply, but it's worth thinking about.

2) I know it's just a comic, but the part of me that knows real physics goes loopy over the idea of travelling at the speed of light only in short bursts. It would take as much force to stop you as it took to start you, so there's no good reason for someone to only be able to move at the speed of light for a short distance. It would be harder to stop than it would be to keep going.

[Rocketman]

If Goku dodged at the speed of light, he would hit the ground/air with ungodly force.

Assume Goku is 100 pounds and sidesteps at the speed of light while standing. He would hit the ground with a force of 13,598,357,153 Newtons.

For comparison, the atomic bomb that destroyed Hiroshima 'only' had a force of 300,000 Newtons.

[astrallite]

Didn't Goku dodge lasers from the RR Army?

Which part are you thinking of? The only ones I can think of are the beams shot from Black's robot thing, but I'd say they're closer to the kind of beam weapons you'd get in Gundam than to a laser. Besides that, this subject always makes me think of a couple of things.

1) If it's impossible to avoid being shot by a laser without being faster than a laser, then it should also be impossible to avoid being shot by a bullet in real life, since bullets are much faster than people. As Char put it in Gundam (what's with all the Gundam references, Bussani?!), you dodge where the gun is aiming, not the projectile itself. May not always apply, but it's worth thinking about.

2) I know it's just a comic, but the part of me that knows real physics goes loopy over the idea of travelling at the speed of light only in short bursts. It would take as much force to stop you as it took to start you, so there's no good reason for someone to only be able to move at the speed of light for a short distance. It would be harder to stop than it would be to keep going.

Did Burter actually say this in the Japanese manga? That he's faster than light? My viz translations just has him saying he's the fastest in the universe.

I don't think physics applies really, it's mainly a goalpost for the writer to show us how fast the characters are while ignoring physics. I mean with characters tossing buildings and transforming at each other I think movement speed is the last issue that suspends your disbelief.

I mean look at One Piece, everybody and their mother is avoiding "lightspeed" kicks and beams. The only possible explanation is some sort of burst speed/reflex action since nobody can run or fly at that speed. I mean look at DC's Flash, he can go faster than light and it's genetically transferred down the family line and he's just a "normal" human.

[astrallite]

If Goku dodged at the speed of light, he would hit the ground/air with ungodly force.

Assume Goku is 100 pounds and sidesteps at the speed of light while standing. He would hit the ground with a force of 13,598,357,153 Newtons.

For comparison, the atomic bomb that destroyed Hiroshima 'only' had a force of 300,000 Newtons.

No actually if he dodged at the speed of light or greater he would have zero mass, since nothing mathematically with interger mass can achieve that speed.

[Hellspawn28]

Huh...

I think he means that if they where faster then light then they would fighting off the Planet's obrit due to their high amount of speed. I don't think doge lasers means that you are faster then light since characters like Spider-Man in Marvel Comics has doge lasers before. And he is nowhere around that speed.

[Bussani]

Did Burter actually say this in the Japanese manga?

No. I'm pretty sure no one does.

Anyway, I don't have a problem with faster than light speeds when it comes to sci-fi and fantasy. There's just nothing in Dragon Ball that's made me think they must be that fast.

I mean look at One Piece, everybody and their mother is avoiding "lightspeed" kicks and beams.

SPOILERS: Well, a lot of them have magic precognition at this point.

[astrallite]

I mean Zoro avoided like half a dozen light-speed pressure beams from Kuma. He doesn't have any devil fruit ability. Of course you could argue their world is so strange that the "humans" could simply be predisposed to those abilities.

[astrallite]

Huh...

I think he means that if they where faster then light then they would fighting off the Planet's obrit due to their high amount of speed. I don't think doge lasers means that you are faster then light since characters like Spider-Man in Marvel Comics has doge lasers before. And he is nowhere around that speed.

It's like stopping yourself mid-sprint. Simply absorbing the kinetic energy that you generated.

[Rocketman]

It's like stopping yourself mid-sprint. Simply absorbing the kinetic energy that you generated.

You stop yourself mid-sprint because the Earth pulls you down, you slam your feet against it and transfer your momentum into the Earth.

[astrallite]

It's like stopping yourself mid-sprint. Simply absorbing the kinetic energy that you generated.

You stop yourself mid-sprint because the Earth pulls you down, you slam your feet against it and transfer your momentum into the Earth.

It's not really problem when you are going FTL with no mass anyway.

[Rocketman]

It's not really problem when you are going FTL with no mass anyway.

Mass is a constant. Goku's still made of various elements, so he still has mass.

[Bussani]

I mean Zoro avoided like half a dozen light-speed pressure beams from Kuma. He doesn't have any devil fruit ability. Of course you could argue their world is so strange that the "humans" could simply be predisposed to those abilities.

Dodging is about more than just being faster than what's coming at you. Unless you don't plan on doing anything until you see the projectile coming at you, that is. And if that's the case, no one would be able to dodge lasers, because you wouldn't see them coming; if you see them, they've hit you.

It's not really problem when you are going FTL with no mass anyway.

Where does the mass go?

[Rocketman]

Also light is a helluva lot faster than the speed that signals travel through nerves.

[astrallite]

I mean Zoro avoided like half a dozen light-speed pressure beams from Kuma. He doesn't have any devil fruit ability. Of course you could argue their world is so strange that the "humans" could simply be predisposed to those abilities.

Dodging is about more than just being faster than what's coming at you. Unless you don't plan on doing anything until you see the projectile coming at you, that is. And if that's the case, no one would be able to dodge lasers, because you wouldn't see them coming; if you see them, they've hit you.

It's not really problem when you are going FTL with no mass anyway.

Where does the mass go?

Conservation of mass and energy. It's been converted into tachyons and into speed.

[Bussani]

Conservation of mass and energy. It's been converted into tachyons and into speed.

So since nothing with mass can go faster than light, if something with mass did go faster than light, it would turn into tachyons? That's kind of like saying...men aren't allowed in the women's bathroom, so if a man went in the women's bathroom, he'd turn into a woman.

[astrallite]

Conservation of mass and energy. It's been converted into tachyons and into speed.

So since nothing with mass can go faster than light, if something with mass did go faster than light, it would turn into tachyons? That's kind of like saying...men aren't allowed in the women's bathroom, so if a man went in the women's bathroom, he'd turn into a woman.

It would acquire the properties of tachyons; in other words, share comparable behavior. Two completely different objects with the same mass can accelerate and would both acquire the same behavior; increasing mass. One does not turn into another.

And tachyons are not mass-less, mathematically they'd have imaginary mass, one whose square is negative.

[goku the krump dancer]

C. Goku vs. Superman

This one's always asking for trouble. It completely depends on which version of Superman you're talking about, though. I mean...



...Yeaah...

Wait couldnt most of these be considered gag feats? Since well...he's not fighting anybody in most of the scans and the feeling I got after reading those pages almost made me feel like I was watching Popeye or some thing along those lines.

[astrallite]

Wait couldnt most of these be considered gag feats? Since well...he's not fighting anybody in most of the scans and the feeling I got after reading those pages almost made me feel like I was watching Popeye or some thing along those lines.

Well DC considers them legit, not gags. They created a series called Infinite Crisis where all the supermen in parallel universes were thrown together, and the one with silver age powers (Superman Prime) basically solo'ed the entire DC universe lol.

Basically it would be if Toriyama covered his plot holes, collapsed each of his story arcs together as separate universes. In which case some of the earlier arc characters, like Tao Pai Pai, would end up surpassing Buu Arc Goku quite a bit because his physical feats surpasses Goku.

And Freeza Arc SSJ Goku would be much higher up than the other arcs as well, hell he might > SSJ3 Goku with his feats. Base Goku in Freeza arc kicked Freeza and he knocked him through mountains. Android arc SSJ have the worst showings, they could barely blow up trucks and when they got thrown into the ground they made like a man sized crater.

[Bussani]

Wait couldnt most of these be considered gag feats? Since well...he's not fighting anybody in most of the scans and the feeling I got after reading those pages almost made me feel like I was watching Popeye or some thing along those lines.

So? Someone actually asked who would win out of Popeye and someone else earlier in the thread, if I remember correctly. If people are going to make such comparisons, they can't then turn around and say, "You can't use that because it's silly." And like astrallite says, Superman really was just that strong in the Silver Age.

It would acquire the properties of tachyons; in other words, share comparable behavior. Two completely different objects with the same mass can accelerate and would both acquire the same behavior; increasing mass. One does not turn into another.

And tachyons are not mass-less, mathematically they'd have imaginary mass, one whose square is negative.

I'd like to say again that I have no problem with ignoring physics altogether when it comes to "martial arts fantasy comic", but I just want to try to get your reasoning straight. Does the person accelerate to the speed of light and beyond and then gain the properties of tachyons? Or do they gain the properties of tachyons and therefore travel faster than light?