Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[dbgtFO]

Aren't you talking about Vegetto's battle power being equal to Vegeta's battle power*Goku's battle power?
If so your battle powers are by default obscenely large(since you say that base Vegetto is weaker than every Super Saiya-jin and Vegetto can't be anything less than 3 trillion).

Vegeta x Goku, not Vegeta's battle power x Goku's battle power. Battle powers aren't used no more at that time.

...the power-up from merging isn’t a sum of the two’s battle powers, but rather as tremendous as multiplication.

The SEG use "battle power" in their way of describing the potara effects, which means Vegetto's battle power by default is Goku's battle power multiplied by Vegeta's, which at the very least puts him at 3 trillion.

[Senzu_Bean]

Since there aren't battle powers at that time by default it cannot be battle power. Unless Goku also refers to himself be a 1000 as battle power...

[dbgtFO]

Since there aren't battle powers at that time by default it cannot be battle power. Unless Goku also refers to himself be a 1000 as battle power...

But SEG states that it works like that and even includes the term "battle power" in the description, just like Daiz 7 says that Kibito's "battle power" is considerably high.

...you know what, let's just end it here...

[Senzu_Bean]

They are definitely not referring to the numerical values displayed in scouters. Heck, the term battle power is also used to describe strength and not just those battle powers.

[Rocketman]

Yep and weaker than Freeza too.

....then he goes Super Saiyan 1 and is so obscenely powerful he kicks Buu's ass as a candy?

[Senzu_Bean]

Yep and weaker than Freeza too.

....then he goes Super Saiyan 1 and is so obscenely powerful he kicks Buu's ass as a candy?

Yep. After all his power remains the same as a candy.

[dbgtFO]

They are definitely not referring to the numerical values displayed in scouters. Heck, the term battle power is also used to describe strength and not just those battle powers.

When is the term "battle power" used in any other way than to refer to scouter battle powers, manga or guidebooks?

Yep and weaker than Freeza too.

....then he goes Super Saiyan 1 and is so obscenely powerful he kicks Buu's ass as a candy?

Yep. After all his power remains the same as a candy.

SEG states that Super Saiya-jin is battle power*50, and since there isn't stated to be another multiplier for fusions it should be the same case for Vegetto.

That would mean if you were going to make a list you would have to make all of the characters fit in there somewhere and still be way weaker than Super Vegetto.
Since you believe Base Vegetto is weaker than Freeza would you care to show just what his power level is in your opinion?

[Kiyza]

They are definitely not referring to the numerical values displayed in scouters. Heck, the term battle power is also used to describe strength and not just those battle powers.

When is the term "battle power" used in any other way than to refer to scouter battle powers, manga or guidebooks?

I know Goku used it ("sentoryoku," that is) to describe his full power while fighting Tenshinhan at the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai at the very least.

[dbgtFO]

They are definitely not referring to the numerical values displayed in scouters. Heck, the term battle power is also used to describe strength and not just those battle powers.

When is the term "battle power" used in any other way than to refer to scouter battle powers, manga or guidebooks?

I know Goku used it ("sentoryoku," that is) to describe his full power while fighting Tenshinhan at the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai at the very least.

You are referring to this?

Chapter: 129, P6.4, P7.1-4, P8.1
...Goku: “Yeah, at my match-use power. [ ] But it looks like you’re trying to kill me, so I’ll go at it with my battle-use power too!”
Tenshinhan: “Battle-use…? So then, now you’ll start utilizing your true ability? Heh! That’s the first time I’ve heard such a worthless bluff!”
Note: “I’ll go at it with my battle-use power too” in the sense that Tenshinhan is also using his battle-use power (not that Tenshinhan thinks in those terms) since he’s trying to kill Goku. It doesn’t mean Goku is going to somehow use both his match and battle-use power simultaneously.

I don't know if "battle use power" is another translation of sentoryoku..

[Herms]

I know Goku used it ("sentoryoku," that is) to describe his full power while fighting Tenshinhan at the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai at the very least.

The term there is actually sentou-you no pawaa; "power used for battle", rather than sentou-ryoku.

[Kiyza]

I know Goku used it ("sentoryoku," that is) to describe his full power while fighting Tenshinhan at the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai at the very least.

The term there is actually sentou-you no pawaa; "power used for battle", rather than sentou-ryoku.

Ah, really? I guess I must have misheard it while watching the anime then. :/ Either way, thanks for correcting me on that. ^^;

[Piccolo Daimao]

Wouldn't Vegeta using SSjG2 right away possibly imply that he, Vegeta, thinks he does need it? It could go either way.

Vegeta is a show-off and wanted to reveal his new-found power to Cell.

Oh, and just wanted to point out with the whole "Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto" thing, the rivalry boost has to come into play too.

[lash]

Since there aren't battle powers at that time by default it cannot be battle power. Unless Goku also refers to himself be a 1000 as battle power...

If you're using battle power in numerals for fan made lists, then the scouter reading(even if it hasn't been used in the series for awhile) is what is being multiplied in the Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto claim.

Now if you were making a Kiri fan made list, Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto can be swayed, as there is nothing official to convert Battle power to Kiri reading.

[Sir Infamous]

Saiyan arc


Raditz

Farmer (with shotgun)
~ 5
Piccolo
~ with weights : 322
~ max without weights : 408
Goku
~ with weights : 334
~ max without weights : 416
Gohan
~ calm : 1
~ angry : 710
~ enraged : 1,307
Raditz
~ 1,200


pre training

Turtle
~ 0.001
Master Roshi
~ 139
Yamcha
~ 177
Krillin
~ 206
Tien
~ 250
Piccolo
~ 329


Nappa and Vegeta

Yajirobe
~ 640
Chaozu
~ 810
Yamcha
~ 1,480
Krillin
~ suppressed : 1,083
~ max : 1,770
Tien
~ 2,100
Piccolo
~ suppressed : 1,220
~ max : 2,440
Gohan
~ normal : 981
~ enraged : 2,800
~ great ape : 9,810
Goku
~ suppressed : 5,000
~ base : 8,000+
~ Kaioken : 16,000
~ Kaioken x 3 : 24,000
~ Kaioken x 4 : 32,000
Saibamen {6}
~ 1,200 {each}
Nappa
~ vs Z fighters : 4,000
~ max : 7,500
Vegeta
~ max : 18,000
~ great ape : 180,000



Frieza arc


Namek

Krillin
~ 1,500
Gohan
~ 1,500
Namek warriors {3}
~ suppressed : 1,000 {each}
~ max : 3,000 {each}
Kui
~ 18,000
Dodoria
~ 20,000
Zarbon
~ normal : 21,000
~ monster : 30,000
Vegeta
~ arrival on Namek : 24,000
~ zenkai, post 1st Zarbon fight : 35,000


Ginyu force

Krillin
~ post guru awakening : 14,000
Gohan
~ post guru awakening : 20,000+
Vegeta
~ 35,000
~ zenkai, post Recoome battle + tired : 140,000
Guldo
~ 4,500
Recoome
~ 42,250
Burter
~ 42,500
Jeice
~ 42,750
Captain Ginyu
~ max : 120,000
~ in Goku's body : 23,000+
Goku
~ suppressed : 5,000
~ base : 90,000
~ Kaioken : 180,000
~ Kaioken x 10 : 900,000

Elite Namek warriors {3}
~ 10,000 {each}
Nail
~ 42,000
Frieza
~ form 1 : 530,000


battle with Frieza

Krillin
~ 14,000
Gohan
~ zenkai, post Ginyu : 275,000
~ enraged : 950,000
~ zenkai, post Dende heal : 400,000
~ enraged 1,400,000
Piccolo
~ pre Nail fusion : 50,000
~ post Nail fusion : 1,100,000
Vegeta
~ zenkai, post Recoome battle + nap : 475,000
~ zenkai, post Dende heal : 2,050,000
Goku
~ zenkai, post Ginyu battle | base : 3,000,000
~ Kaioken x 10 : 30,000,000
~ Kaioken x 20 : 60,000,000
~ SSJ : 150,000,000
Frieza
~ form 1 : 530,000
~ form 2 : 1,060,000
~ form 3 : 1,590,000
~ true form (initial suppression) : 3,300,000
~ true form (50%) : 60,000,000
~ true form (100%) : 120,000,000+


Garlic Junior

Chichi
~ mist powered : 860
Master Roshi
~ mist powered : 1,390
Yamcha
~ mist powered : 500,000
Krillin
~ 125,000
Piccolo
~ suppressed : 1,550,000
~ absolute max : 2,200,000
Gohan
~ normal : 500,000
~ enraged : 2,600,000
Salt
~ normal : 250,000
Mustard
~ normal : 270,000
Vinegar
~ normal : 310,000
~ Makyo star boost : 520,000
Spice
~ normal : 350,000
~ Makyo star boost : 580,000
Garlic Junior
~ original : 950,000
~ transformed : 1,700,000

Vegeta
~ base : 2,875,000



Cell arc


Mecha Frieza

King Cold
~ 110,000,000
Mecha Frieza
~ 125,000,000
Trunks
~ extremely suppressed : 5
~ SSJ : 170,000,000
Goku
~ SSJ : 200,000,000


Androids

Yamcha
~ 1,500,000
Kuririn
~ 2,000,000
Tien
~ 45,000,000
Piccolo
~ 75,000,000
future Trunks
~ Base : 3,400,000
~ SSJ : 170,000,000
Vegeta
~ Base : 5,400,000
~ SSJ : 270,000,000
Android 20 (Gero)
~ 65,000,000
Android 19
~ 100,000,000
Android 18
~ 400,000,000 (infinitely)
Android 17
~ 425,000,000 (infinitely)


Imperfect Cell and Perfect Cell

Tien
45,000,000
Piccolo
~ pre fusion : 75,000,000
~ post fusion : 425,000,000
Android 18
~ 400,000,000 (infinitely)
Android 17
~ 425,000,000 (infinitely)
Android 16
~ 550,000,000 (infinitely)
Imperfect Cell form 1
~ first arrival : 350,000,000
~ post humans absorbed : 550,000,000
Imperfect Cell form 2
~ suppressed : 825,000,000
~ full power : 975,000,000
Vegeta
~ USSJ : 1,450,000,000
future Trunks
~ USSJ : 1,300,000,000
~ USSJ 2 : 3,500,000,000
Perfect Cell
~ initial suppression : 1,375,000,000
~ 'warming up' suppression : 2,750,000,000


Cell games

Caroni
~ 20
Piroshki
~ 25
Mr. Satan
~ 40
Yamcha
~ 1,500,000
Kuririn
~ 2,000,000
Tien
~ 45,000,000
Android 16
~ 550,000,000 (infinitely)
Piccolo
~ 1,150,000,000
future Trunks
~ USSJ : 2,950,000,000
Vegeta
~ USSJ : 3,300,000,000
Goku
~ MSSJ (50%) : 2,750,000,000
~ MSSJ (100%) : 5,500,000,000
Gohan
~ MSSJ : 5,750,000,000
~ SSJ2 : 32,500,000,000
Cell Juniors {7}
~ 3,125,000,000 {each}
Perfect Cell
~ 'warming up' suppression : 2,750,000,000
~ powered up suppression : 6,250,000,000
~ full power : 12,500,000,000
~ zenkai ('Super' Perfect) : 30,000,000,000


Free the future

future Android 18
~ 200,000,000 (infinitely)
future Android 17
~ 212,500,000 (infinitely)
future Imperfect Cell form 1
~ 380,000,000
future Trunks
~ SSJ : 2,950,000,000



Buu arc


Hell

Guldo
~ 4,500
Recoome
~ 42,250
Burter
~ 42,500
Jeice
~ 42,750
Goku
~ base : 130,000,000
~ SSJ : 6,500,000,000

Frieza
~ 125,000,000
King Cold
~ 110,000,000
'Super' Perfect Cell
~ 30,000,000,000
Pikkon
~ max : 7,000,000,000
~ Blazing Shoot : 35,000,000,000


Ano Yo-ichi Budoukai

Olibu
~ 130,000,000
Goku
~ base : 130,000,000
~ SSJ : 6,500,000,000
Pikkon
~ suppressed with weights : 140,000,000
~ max : 7,000,000,000


25th Budoukai

Mr Satan
~ 40
Videl
~ 125
Yamu
~ 250
Spopovich
~ 300
Goten
~ base : 7,300,000
~ SSJ : 365,000,000
Trunks
~ base : 7,700,000
~ SSJ : 385,000,000
Android 18
~ 400,000,000 (infinitely)

Gohan
~ SSJ : 3,725,000,000
~ SSJ2 : 21,000,000,000


Babidi

Pui Pui
~ 100,000
Yakkon
~ 1,775,000,000
Dabura
~ 4,000,000,000
Kibiti
~ 1,000,000,000
Kaioshin
~ 2,500,000,000
Gohan
~ SSJ : 3,725,000,000
Vegeta
~ base : 85,000,000
~ SSJ : 4,250,000,000
~ SSJ2 : 24,000,000,000
~ SSJ2 (Majin) : 37,500,000,000
Goku
~ SSJ : 6,650,000,000
~ SSJ2 (suppressed Yakkon burst) : 28,500,000,000
~ SSJ2 : 37,500,000,000


Majin Buu

Dabura
~ 4,000,000,000
Kaioshin
~ 2,500,000,000
Gohan
~ SSJ : 3,725,000,000
Vegeta
~ SSJ2 (Majin) : 37,500,000,000
Fat Buu
~ max : 135,000,000,000
~ unlock-able max potential : 300,000,000,000
Good Buu
~ max : 135,000,000,000
Evil Buu
~ max : 165,000,000,000
Goku
~ Base : 133,000,000
~ SSJ : 6,650,000,000
~ SSJ2 : 37,500,000,000
~ SSJ3 : 150,000,000,000
Gotenks
~ Base : 55,000,000,000
~ SSJ : 110,000,000,000


Fusion

Piccolo
~ max : 2,000,000,000
Goten
~ Base : 75,000,000
~ SSJ : 3,750,000,000
Trunks
~ Base : 85,000,000
~ SSJ : 4,250,000,000
Vegeta
~ SSJ2 : 37,500,000,000
Goku
~ SSJ2 : 37,500,000,000
~ SSJ3 : 150,000,000,000
Gotenks
~ Base : 120,000,000,000
~ SSJ : 240,000,000,000
~ SSJ3 : 300,000,000,000
Gohan
~ SSJ2 (post Z sword training) : 48,000,000,000
~ Mystic : 500,000,000,000
Super Buu
~ original : 300,000,000,000
~ Buutenks : 602,000,000,000
~ Buucollo : 310,000,000,000
~ Buuhan : 810,000,000,000
Vegetto
~ Base : 1,000,000,000,000
~ SSJ : 5,000,000,000,000

Gogeta (hypothetical)
~ Base : 500,000,000,000
~ SSJ : 1,000,000,000,000


Kid Buu

East Kaioshin
~ 2,500,000,000
West Kaioshin
~ 2,800,000,000
North Kaioshin
~ 2,800,000,000
South Kaioshin
~ 3,225,000,000
Dai Kaioshin
~ 3,000,000,000
Mr. Buu
~ 135,000,000,000
Kid Buu
~ 165,000,000,000
Vegeta
~ SSJ2 : 37,500,000,000
Goku
~ SSJ3 : 150,000,000,000



Movies and Specials


movie 5

Cooler
~ true form : 140,000,000
~ final form : 5,600,000,000
Goku
~ base (pre zenkai) : 4,500,000
~ base (post zenkai) : 150,000,000
~ Kaioken x 20 : 3,000,000,000
~ SSJ : 7,500,000,000


movie 6

Meta Cooler
~ standard : 8,000,000,000
~ Gete upgrade : 10,000,000,000
Goku
~ base : 170,000,000
~ Kaioken x 20 : 3,400,000,000
~ SSJ : 8,500,000,000
Vegeta
~ base : 156,000,000
~ SSJ : 7,800,000,000
Piccolo
~ 425,000,000

[dbgtFO]

battle with Freeza
Piccolo
~ pre Nail fusion : 50,000
~ post Nail fusion : 1,100,000

Why you have Piccolo pre fusion this low?
To me fusion with Kami is a 2x boost, so I have Piccolo way closer to Freeza's first form than to the Ginyu Force.
Piccolo didn't even shit bricks, when he felt the full power of 3rd suppression Freeza you know, unlike him shitting bricks upon witnessing the power of Freeza's 1st suppression.

Androids
Yamcha
~ 1,500,000
Kuririn
~ 2,000,000
Tenshinhan
~ 45,000,000

This I like

Freeza forms and powers(basically how I see the powers of Freeza's different forms).

3rd Suppression = can't suppress lower than 200.000.
- Full Power = 530.000. - stated by him.
2nd Suppression = 795.000 - initially. I put him below 1 million, since Freeza's Full Power would be registered anyways by a scouter IMO.
- vs. Gohan = 900.000.
- vs. Piccolo/Full Power = 1.060.000.
1st Suppression = 2.120.000 - never powers further up in this state, so he is most likely at full power only in this form.
True Form = 4.240.000.
- Full Power = 120.000.000.

Goku = 3.500.000. - I don't think base Goku could have managed anything without Kaioken in that fight. Freeza fighting using only his feet is what convinced me that their powers were wide apart, even before Freeza powered up to 50%.
Don't try to convince me otherwise, because it most definetly won't work.

[Sir Infamous]

Why you have Piccolo pre fusion this low?
To me fusion with Kami is a 2x boost, so I have Piccolo way closer to Freeza's first form than to the Ginyu Force.
Piccolo didn't even shit bricks, when he felt the full power of 3rd suppression Freeza you know, unlike him shitting bricks upon witnessing the power of Freeza's 1st suppression.

Err, how could he have gone from 2,000ish against Nappa to 500,000? He wasnt even there that long at all.

I like this

Well, I would normally have him more than 10 times weaker, but then there's that whole instance where he held back Semi Cell. Unless you think the Shin Kikoho amplifies ki by like hundreds and hundreds of fold.

By that same logic he could have killed great ape Vegeta on Earth. Which I refuse to believe.

[Piccolo Daimao]

battle with Freeza
Piccolo
~ pre Nail fusion : 50,000
~ post Nail fusion : 1,100,000

Why you have Piccolo pre fusion this low?
To me fusion with Kami is a 2x boost, so I have Piccolo way closer to Freeza's first form than to the Ginyu Force.
Piccolo didn't even shit bricks, when he felt the full power of 3rd suppression Freeza you know, unlike him shitting bricks upon witnessing the power of Freeza's 1st suppression.

There is no reason for Piccolo to be close to Freeza's first form. Even though he claimed he could defeat Freeza, he calls Freeza "a monster", notes his ki as "absurdly large" and when Nail's asked him if he became one with God again, Piccolo replies, "Are you saying if I merged with God once again, my power would even surpass Freeza!?", implying that he couldn't. If he actually stood a chance against Freeza, then he wouldn't merge with Nail at all.

My battle power for pre-fusion Piccolo is 55,000, based on Nail's statement: “I-I’m astonished…I don’t know what kind of training you’ve done, but you’ve acquired unbelievable power…"

So stronger than 42,000, at least. Yeah, a number of people will say, "How the fuck could Piccolo get that strong in only 6 days?", but it's a plot device. Look at all the other occasions characters have gotten ridiculously strong without plausible explanations.

[dbgtFO]

Why you have Piccolo pre fusion this low?
To me fusion with Kami is a 2x boost, so I have Piccolo way closer to Freeza's first form than to the Ginyu Force.
Piccolo didn't even shit bricks, when he felt the full power of 3rd suppression Freeza you know, unlike him shitting bricks upon witnessing the power of Freeza's 1st suppression.

Err, how could he have gone from 2,000ish against Nappa to 500,000? He wasnt even there that long at all.

He is Piccolo. Also Plot determines power, not logic, so Piccolo can become as strong as the author wants, as fast, as he want him to.
Even going from 2000 to 50.000 in less than 6 days is beyond impressive, when it took Goku 158 days to get close to such a giant boost.

I like this

Well, I would normally have him more than 10 times weaker, but then there's that whole instance where he held back Semi Cell. Unless you think the Shin Kikoho amplifies ki by like hundreds and hundreds of fold.

By that same logic he could have killed great ape Vegeta on Earth. Which I refuse to believe.

I can understand that.
EDIT:

battle with Freeza
Piccolo
~ pre Nail fusion : 50,000
~ post Nail fusion : 1,100,000

Why you have Piccolo pre fusion this low?
To me fusion with Kami is a 2x boost, so I have Piccolo way closer to Freeza's first form than to the Ginyu Force.
Piccolo didn't even shit bricks, when he felt the full power of 3rd suppression Freeza you know, unlike him shitting bricks upon witnessing the power of Freeza's 1st suppression.

There is no reason for Piccolo to be close to Freeza's first form. Even though he claimed he could defeat Freeza, he calls Freeza "a monster", notes his ki as "absurdly large" and when Nail's asked him if he became one with God again, Piccolo replies, "Are you saying if I merged with God once again, my power would even surpass Freeza!?", implying that he couldn't. And he's iffy about merging with Nail, and does it still. If he actually stood a chance against Freeza, then he wouldn't merge with Nail at all.

I don't have Piccolo that close to 3rd suppression Freeza. He's about 300.000 in my levels, which is based on him thinking he could beat Freeza, not shitting bricks when sensing Freeza's power and being confident enough in his abilities to refuse Nail's fusion offer at first.

My battle power for Piccolo pre-fusion is 55,000, based on Nail's statement: “I-I’m astonished…I don’t know what kind of training you’ve done, but you’ve acquired unbelievable power…"

So stronger than 42,000, at least. Yeah, a number of people will say, "How the fuck could Piccolo get that strong in only 6 days?", but it's a plot device. Look at all the other occasions characters have gotten ridiculously strong without plausible explanations.

And since you use that explanation then I can likewise say, that anything's possible as long, as he's below 530.000 to a significant degree.

[Piccolo Daimao]

And since you use that explanation then I can likewise say, that anything's possible as long, as he's below 530.000 to a significant degree.

OK, fair enough.

[Rocketman]

Goku, training in 100x gravity and taking advantage of the zenkais, goes from ~9,000 to 90,000 in six days.

Piccolo in the same time goes from 2,000 to 300,000?